397 replies to this topic

[Kish]

All I ask is that you recognize that no matter the difference in intentions and methods, the people you kill are just as dead.

Yes, of course they're dead. Did someone question that?

As the player, I am fully aware of the fact that the Five are 4/5 evil and 1/5 misguided. However, I don't know where the character gets this certainty from. You have the word of one woman, rumor and hearsay and some incidental writings (Yaga-Shura's journal). This is a rather thin pretext for breaking into people's fortresses.

As soon as you arrive in ToB, Ilasera attacks you. You can try to reason with her, and she tells you she and her allies will kill you. Then as soon as you land in Saradush, the very first thing you see is some of Gromnir's guards starting to cut down helpless peasants in the street. You can confirm it with practically anyone in town--"Gromnir killed my parents." "Gromnir lets his soldiers terrorize us." "Gromnir is even more of a tyrant than Count Santele." The only thing more obvious than Gromnir's need to be stopped is that Yaga-Shura is bombarding the town with fireballs. Even so, perhaps the PC thinks Yaga-Shura's been framed...that the army outside the walls answers to Melissan, perhaps. So the PC goes to his fortress--not breaks in, just walks in through the front door, and looks for someone to make an appointment with--and everyone attacks on sight. Similarly, Draconis and the disguised drow woodcutter don't wait for you to say "I'm here to kill my sibling"--they both spell out for you that their father or employer is wholly evil, and then they attack you.

Yes, it would be nice if the game gave the PC many more chances to try to settle things with words. Yes, the fate of Sendai's duergar slaves is tragic. Yes, the game presumes you have more faith in Melissan than any player likely would. But the game's demand that you feel guilty, that you accept you've been wrong to kill those people, is horribly contrived. Less violent means of conflict resolution aren't missing because you're the child of Bhaal, they're missing because the developers didn't want you to take them. You kill just as many people, for reasons no better, in games where you're defined as a pure-hearted hero descended from a long line of pure-hearted heroes.

[jester]

Certainly the Gaxx-guardian lich fights are immoral, though you have no chance to back down once you engage. CHANAME would have to be an idiot not to realize that keeping Gaxx trapped was a good thing.

I guess it is that old hunger for gadgets that supersedes moral qualms at that point??

Every paladin should pass here. You are absolutely right. I should make a nono quest guide for the LG community.

...they're missing because the developers didn't want you to take them.

I think they were more preoccupied with publishing a BG game than meeting any expectations or justifing game elements.
I think it was just the sequel fever and the producers who claimed to have the game and they will have it now. Hopefully someday around the next years ToB will be modded to a worthy conclusion.

[BobTokyo]

Fact number 1.

The Protagonist is 'by the plot' the child of Murder. Not just any other evil God mind it (say of vengeance, strife, deception, poisoning, storms, whatever other portfolios are out there) By FR lore chance and Bio choice it is Bhaal who seeded the children. Thus we are faced with fact accompli.

So CHANAME should feel guilty by virtue of having been born? What a very Christian viewpoint.

Fact number 2.

Protagonist has a choice what to do with their power and chose any career, alignment, gender, race pleases them - but they are turning into a Slayer nonetheless and have a chance to damage their friends unintentionally.

CHANAME should be concerned about this; it would have worked better if the longer CHANAME went without a soul, the greater the chance of turning into the slayer after each rest or in each combat. As it is, CHANAME only changes unintentioally twice, and the player can ignore that part of the plot.

Fact number 3.

Whatever the sins all Five Bhaalspawns committed - they are your siblings by 'divine' blood but still the closest you get. And you are presented (in case with Sarevok) with a little interplay suggesting what could have happened if Gorion picked Sarevok in that temple not you.

They are "siblings" CHANAME has never met or heard of, have killed many of CHANAME's other siblings, and are trying to kill CHANAME. The position that CHANAME wouldn't consider them siblings at all is reasonable.

My question is - should PC always feel as pristine shiny and guiltless and remorseless or should they at least try to role-play their background?

CHANAME's background doesn't give CHANAME any more reason to feel guilty than anyone else, unless CHANAME accepts the idea of inherited guilt. Maybe all of that time growing up in a library taught CHANAME to throw off the bonds of irational lineage based prejudice.

I mean - comon. I am not blaming PC for killing all the endless 'evil' folk that attacks you first or turns hostile if you try to grab some treasure etc. But seriously - slaughtering Zaranda's entire army after they attack you on her order, and all these endless Duergar slaves in Sendai's basement... Should it at least make you feel uneasy as a character? Even if you are doing this for the 'greater good' - and there is a 50/50 chance you are happily chunking everything in sight as 'true spawn' - but I assume you are like Domi, and run around with a shiny big sword of justice and song of righteousness in your heart saving elves and righting wrongs. Still, should not you feel a little bit conscious, and comprehensive?

Killing the army and slaves are optional. CHANAME can just cast invisibility and non-detection and waltz past them if the player is trying to role-play a Good character. Killing them should induce some introspection.

Well, maybe I am asking all the wrong questions here. But I always though PC must be truly a hypocrite to blame Yoshimo, for example, for betrayal. After all poor Yoshi always could say - I thought you are like Yaga Shura and all the others, and by helping to get rid of you; I was doing word justice...

Yoshimo was under a geas. His choice was obediance or death. Iirc CHANAME can forgive him, and if the player is playing as Good probably should.

I always kick out Yoshi myself; CHANAME couldn't reasonably trust him after the hints he drops throughout the game.

[BobTokyo]

Every paladin should pass here. You are absolutely right. I should make a nono quest guide for the LG community.

A "How to be Good" mini-faq might be a very cool idea.

[jester]

Every paladin should pass here. You are absolutely right. I should make a nono quest guide for the LG community.

A "How to be Good" mini-faq might be a very cool idea.

Tentatively named '50 ways to loose your status' cowritten and often criticized by Anomen ' the straightjacket' Delryn. On the To Do list when I install the game again.

[dorotea]

CHANAME's background doesn't give CHANAME any more reason to feel guilty than anyone else, unless CHANAME accepts the idea of inherited guilt. Maybe all of that time growing up in a library taught CHANAME to throw off the bonds of irational lineage based prejudice.

Or maybe it is just easier to ignore the offered storyline and pretend you are in Icewind Dale, eh? Seriosly - you are having nightmares about rivers of blood throught all the game (by storyline), you kill your own siblings, you are forced to eliminate incredible amount of sentient beings - true to protect yourself, but still - you terminate their lives and it is a big question were your 'destiny' is leading you.
And still you can be a happy little paladine without a droplet of guilty consciousness and deep inner confidence of done nothing wrong? I know it is 'just a game' - but aren't all the LG folk here deliberately blinding themselves? Is it even possible to play through this game without ever seriously feeling unsure of yourself (as a character) ? It is not just 'any' rpg, and Bhaalspawn is not just 'any' other character...

[dorotea]

Just out of curiosity, does it seem relevant to you if I mention that I consider it quite evil to attack, say, Saladrex or Nevaziah?

(Red dragon in Watcher's Keep and lich in the Graveyard, in case the names don't ring bells.)

I know the critters and never kill them myself, well unless Edwin jumps in and demands Nevaziah's scroll - when I am testing his romance.

I still feel uneasy as a character - if only because technically Gorion dies while protecting PC. But I am weird - I could never bring myself to kill the chickens even to get the Beljuril.

[Gospel]

But I am weird - I could never bring myself to kill the chickens even to get the Beljuril. :blink:

Even? Excuse me?

[Kish]

you are forced to eliminate incredible amount of sentient beings - true to protect yourself, but still - you terminate their lives

Interesting that you brought up Icewind Dale.

Which game do you figure involves killing more sentient beings--Baldur's Gate, or Icewind Dale? Or the Neverwinter Nights OC? What makes one killing-of-thousands proof of inherent evil, and the others something else?

[jester]

@ IWD
I would have sided with Isair and Madae if they had let me. *sigh*

I always buy the Beljuril from the farmer for 50 GP.

[BobTokyo]

CHANAME's background doesn't give CHANAME any more reason to feel guilty than anyone else, unless CHANAME accepts the idea of inherited guilt. Maybe all of that time growing up in a library taught CHANAME to throw off the bonds of irational lineage based prejudice.

Or maybe it is just easier to ignore the offered storyline and pretend you are in Icewind Dale, eh? Seriosly - you are having nightmares about rivers of blood throught all the game (by storyline), you kill your own siblings, you are forced to eliminate incredible amount of sentient beings - true to protect yourself, but still - you terminate their lives and it is a big question were your 'destiny' is leading you.
And still you can be a happy little paladine without a droplet of guilty consciousness and deep inner confidence of done nothing wrong? I know it is 'just a game' - but aren't all the LG folk here deliberately blinding themselves? Is it even possible to play through this game without ever seriously feeling unsure of yourself (as a character) ? It is not just 'any' rpg, and Bhaalspawn is not just 'any' other character...

OK, a more serious answer:

Personally I usually play the game as Chaotic Neutral; imo a sane and seriously role played Good character would have raised the 20000 GP and left for spellhold before the end of day two after one or two quests in Athkathla (a true CG rogue would get the money even faster). He or she would then fight a nightmarish low level battle through the underdark taking on only one of the *monster* cities (probably the Beholders; safest path if CHANAME went through the Shauguin city), return to the surface, kill Bodhi, then head straight for the elven city. The player would see a fraction of the quests, and many Mods wouldn't even be noticed. At this stage I like mods, and I want to see the world. CN means never having to say you're sorry.

However, it is possible to play a Good character who does not accept that being the child of Bhaal should be a source of guilt; the dreams are disturbing, but can be seen as coming from the "outside". Guilt over the deaths of those who attack you is a philosophical point of view that isn't all that common among soldiers and the general populace, both now and historically. I can easilly see someone roleplaying a *Good* Samurai or Knight who feels little guilt over his or her actions. That role-player's take on the character seems as valid to me as any other.

Besides, if someone were really trying to role play a good character they would be able to do so without killing (almost) anyone other than Irenicus, Bodhi, the five and Mellisan.

[BobTokyo]

@ IWD
I would have sided with Isair and Madae if they had let me. *sigh*

I always buy the Beljuril from the farmer for 50 GP.

I buy or ignore it. Money is everywhere; my CHANAME rarely needs another jewel.

[BobTokyo]

I doubt that anyone has the right to demand of a person to feel guilty for being born. Person is judged by him/herself and others for his/her actions alone, not for the actions of their parents.

In fairness to Dorotea and others, the idea that a child is tainted by the sins of the parent has been and is widely held, even if it is publicly out of fashion in the west. I disagree with it, and a well read character in a semi-middle ages setting could reasonably disagree with it, but this is a fantasy game. In a fantasy world it could be literally true, and the game's storyline treats it as such (CHANAME carries the taint). Nothing stops the character from rejecting the taint as something that is not part of himself on an intellectual level, but it is within CHANAME, accepted or no.

[Laufey]

I doubt that anyone has the right to demand of a person to feel guilty for being born. Person is judged by him/herself and others for his/her actions alone, not for the actions of their parents.

In fairness to Dorotea and others, the idea that a child is tainted by the sins of the parent has been and is widely held, even if it is publicly out of fashion in the west. I disagree with it, and a well read character in a semi-middle ages setting could reasonably disagree with it, but this is a fantasy game. In a fantasy world it could be literally true, and the game's storyline treats it as such (CHANAME carries the taint). Nothing stops the character from rejecting the taint as something that is not part of himself on an intellectual level, but it is within CHANAME, accepted or no.

Hm...as for my two cents, I don't think CHARNAME should feel guilty for being born, but denying the existance of the taint and that it might potentially influence him/her, could be very dangerous. Also, I think that any character who aspires to the title 'good', with or without Bhaalspawn taint, should question his/her own actions now and then. Remember that Nietzsche quote in the beginning of BG1? 'He who stares too long into the Abyss will find it staring back at him'? I think that all people have the potential for both good and evil, and a person who doesn't recognize the potential for evil within him/herself is far more likely to succumb to it than one who does.

This, by the way, doesn't mean that I think CHARNAME should wallow in guilt over every life he/she takes, but I think the thought should at least cross his/her mind now and then that maybe they weren't all bad people.

[BobTokyo]

Also, I think that any character who aspires to the title 'good', with or without Bhaalspawn taint, should question his/her own actions now and then. Remember that Nietzsche quote in the beginning of BG1? 'He who stares too long into the Abyss will find it staring back at him'? I think that all people have the potential for both good and evil, and a person who doesn't recognize the potential for evil within him/herself is far more likely to succumb to it than one who does.

This, by the way, doesn't mean that I think CHARNAME should wallow in guilt over every life he/she takes, but I think the thought should at least cross his/her mind now and then that maybe they weren't all bad people.

I haven't read the entire thread, and this is a sincere question; Has anyone actually suggested that CHANAME shouldn't question the morality of his own actions? My own position has been that the actions required of CHANAME to complete the storyline are justifiable, based on time, place, and situation, and that CHANAME has no reason to be particularly haunted by the faces of the thugs and monsters he/she was required to slay on the way to his/her goal. I've also stated that the actions required of CHANAME by the storyline are in no way morally equivelant to the actions of Irenicus; that killing to protect ones own life and the lives of others is not the moral equivelant of torture and murder for personal gain. CHANAME can perform any number of evil acts as part of the game, but at no time is he required to do so as part of the story. If the player has decided to slaughter slaves and armies, that's his or her choice; CHANAME can avoid those foes with one or two spells and a little fast walking.

[BobTokyo]

That's an interesting proposition, BT. I think though, that the game implies that a character is capable of resisting the taint, and even more so, the final goal of the whole affair can be viewed as relieving onself of it via surrendering the essence. I do not think that the game carries a message that PC is powerless before his destiny and that it is Bhaal who is fully in control of his fate/actions. On the opposite there are I guess certain symbolic scenes which indicate that PC is actively fighting against his Sire's influence and people are shown to treat the PC both fairly and unfairly (the most telling perhaps was Jaheira's neverending Harper's saga). So I think it is closer to the POV of "it is your own choice"

BG1 and the end of ToB are certainly about CHANAME accepting or rejecting the taint and his/her destiny. I'm not sure if CHANAME should see the Taint as part of him/her, or as something imposed on him/her. I'd say that both are valid RPing options.

[Laufey]

Also, I think that any character who aspires to the title 'good', with or without Bhaalspawn taint, should question his/her own actions now and then. Remember that Nietzsche quote in the beginning of BG1? 'He who stares too long into the Abyss will find it staring back at him'? I think that all people have the potential for both good and evil, and a person who doesn't recognize the potential for evil within him/herself is far more likely to succumb to it than one who does.

This, by the way, doesn't mean that I think CHARNAME should wallow in guilt over every life he/she takes, but I think the thought should at least cross his/her mind now and then that maybe they weren't all bad people.

I haven't read the entire thread, and this is a sincere question; Has anyone actually suggested that CHANAME shouldn't question the morality of his own actions? My own position has been that the actions required of CHANAME to complete the storyline are justifiable, based on time, place, and situation, and that CHANAME has no reason to be particularly haunted by the faces of the thugs and monsters he/she was required to slay on the way to his/her goal. I've also stated that the actions required of CHANAME by the storyline are in no way morally equivelant to the actions of Irenicus; that killing to protect ones own life and the lives of others is not the moral equivelant of torture and murder for personal gain. CHANAME can perform any number of evil acts as part of the game, but at no time is he required to do so as part of the story. If the player has decided to slaughter slaves and armies, that's his or her choice; CHANAME can avoid those foes with one or two spells and a little fast walking.

I was speaking of my own general opinions on good and evil - not stating that anybody had said any such thing. If it came across that way, it was unintentional.