397 replies to this topic

[BobTokyo]

EDIT: @ Bob: To be legally granted a right does not make it morally acceptable per se. The context for self-defense is rather limited. I wholeheartedly subscribe to self-defense in the personal context, but this argument has been abused for far to many preemptive actions by larger groups which are debatable.

I agree that the term "self-defense" is often abused, but in the context of the player character's life in BG1 and 2 I can't remember any mandatory uses of deadly force that don't fit into that term. Maybe the killing of the whore-house guards, but even that can be skipped without using out of character knowledge. ToB is more problematic; you have no choice but to kill the 5, and you can't completely avoid killing their troops. Even then, they have made an unprovoked attempt on CHANAME's life, and can reasonably be expeted to do so again even if CHANAME flees.

In the context of the mod, I can't see any actions taken by a well played non-evil PC on the same level as the actions taken by Irenicus.

[jester]

In the context of the mod, I can't see any actions taken by a well played non-evil PC on the same level as the actions taken by Irenicus.

They are not, you are absolutely right with every thing you say about the course of the game. I appreciated the way Fallout let me roleplay a more diplomatic approach throughout the game. I must admit I am not a Paladin, so slaying anybody else is no fun for me. I write this down to game mechanics which are just what the game is like. I am looking forward to this mod regardless.

EDIT: I mean I do not mind killing anybody who had it coming in-game, but sometimes I think about this. A young indoctrinated druid is asked to defend the druid grove by Faldorn. He is maybe just starting out and not wise enough to see the consequences of her crusade. Does he deserve to die? Another would be a young guy who finally got a job as a bouncer in a local pub in the greedy and morally corrupted town he hails from, Atkhatla. Although he is against what is happening there he desperately needs the money to survive. Does he deserve to die? Some characters do for sure and I put them down with glee every time. I can only think of a couple of storylines that would even beg a good PC to have second thoughts. A paladin plundering the Guarded Compound, because he can and wants CF? I don't know how many paladins forgo this blade and stick with their principles.

Edited by jester, 29 March 2004 - 02:06 AM.

[BobTokyo]

How many dwarves have been killed and resurrected in Georgia this year? I am saying that it is a fantasy setting. This has been debated in this thread around the pages 3-5 somewhere IIRC. Read more of this thread and you may still disagree with me, but on a more justified basis.

I read those arguments, and disagreed, while still lurking.

The premise that some people just matter more does show up in poorly written fiction and in xenophobic and "great man" belief systems. I think that Dorotea and the others involved are shooting higher than "poorly written".

As to the belief systems in force in BG's version of the Forgotten Realms, that I can't comment on.

[jester]

... on a more justified basis.

I read those arguments, and disagreed, while still lurking.

Ok, sorry for bugging you about it then.

[BobTokyo]

... on a more justified basis.

I read those arguments, and disagreed, while still lurking.

Ok, sorry for bugging you about it then.

No prob, no harm, no foul.

[BobTokyo]

I mean I do not mind killing anybody who had it coming in-game, but sometimes I think about this. A young indoctrinated druid is asked to defend the druid grove by Faldorn. He is maybe just starting out and not wise enough to see the consequences of her crusade. Does he deserve to die? Another would be a young guy who finally got a job as a bouncer in a local pub in the greedy and morally corrupted town he hails from, Atkhatla. Although he is against what is happening there he desperately needs the money to survive. Does he deserve to die? Some characters do for sure and I put them down with glee every time. I can only think of a couple of storylines that would even beg a good PC to have second thoughts. A paladin plundering the Guarded Compound, because he can and wants CF? I don't know how many paladins forgo this blade and stick with their principles.

Fair questions; those are grey areas. I'd say that in all three cases those involved know that they're participating in criminal activities (slavery in the case of the Copper Corronet and the Guarded Compound, terrorist attacks on the people of Trademeet in the case of Faldorn's druids), but CHANAME only has anything resembling legitimate police powers in the case of Trademeet. Those are optional quests, and in a true pacifist game you could skip them. In the case of the druid grove you only have to kill Faldorn; invisibility will get you past everyone else. The Djinn and the Rakasha are a tougher problem; you either have to give in to extortion by killing someone who is not (as far as you know) causing any harm or invite future reprisals by killing the extortionists.

I never had a good PC raid the guarded compound except when playing with mods that restored the links between the compound and the slaver quests. Without those mods that's definitely a case of breaking into someone's house and killing them to take their stuff. Still, it's optional.

[jester]

The only good feature of Lionheart is IMO the ability to gain a portion of the XP you would get for killing someone by sneaking past them. So the use of invisibilty for this would make more sense. For a pacifist approach , I have to try this someday. Maybe I end up at level 12 when I meet Irenicus at the Tree

I did not know that the GC is linked to the slavers.

[BobTokyo]

The only good feature of Lionheart is IMO the ability to gain a portion of the XP you would get for killing someone by sneaking past them. So the use of invisibilty for this would make more sense. For a pacifist approach , I have to try this someday. Maybe I end up at level 12 when I meet Irenicus at the Tree

I did not know that the GC is linked to the slavers.

IIRC, you end up around level 15+ if you play a Solo-Semi-Pacifist game thanks to the quest rewards, scrolls, locks and traps. There are many quests you just won't be able to complete if you try for a true pacifist game, including the main quest.

I liked the level advancement system in Morrowind and Dagerfall; you level up by successfully using your skills. The D&D system turns everyone into a Vampire, gaining power by killing.

At this point we are undeniably off-topic.

EDIT: The Guarded Compound was originally the Slavers' Stronghold. Koshi was the go between for the Slavers you meet through the Copper Corronet quest and the Twisted Rune members in the Bridge district. The Slavers' quests were also linked to the Roenall quests, and possibly to the invasion of Nalia's keep.

[Laufey]

An interesting thought from above would be what kind of god Jon would have become. Or is your portfolio up to you once you ar a god?

Interesting question, yes! I think it would depend on whether you mean his first or his second attempt. If the second attempt, then I think God of Murder because he was using your stolen Bhaalpower. But then again, he was also trying to drain the Tree, which had nothing to do with Bhaal.

How about 'God of Tacky Outfits'?

[jester]

I know that is not what he might be after, but Waukeen' s seems up for grasps I think. How about 'God of Tacky Outfits'? The wrath of the leatherface will be upon you soon

@Pacifist game and D&D yes, off topic.

@ GC and slavers: Is this restored in UB, because I never experienced any links or altered dialogues? Perhaps the Improved Battles and Tactics interferes with this.

[jester]

Thanks for this link, domi.

I went solo with a mage-thief multiclass and my record was (as far as I went in the game)
0 in the Irenicus dungeon (I pick pocketed Ilyich for the acorns)
1 in the Nalia castle (Tor Gal)
2 in the Haer Dalis - planar prison quests (the Master of Thralls and the Cambion)
2 in the mage stronghold (Lavok and a demon)
0 in the Druid Grove quests (It is possible to pick pocket Ithafeer for her head and Cernd, who was not in my party, killed Faldorn).

Be warned however that this thing takes infinite patience and perseverance and is rather difficult to accomplish.

I think this is not true with Tactics and many other mods and fixes installed. Pickpocketing someone for his/her had has to be a game glitch and to have one of your henchman kill somebody (sorry Cernd, I meant teammates ) does not strike me as a nonviolent approach. Mage/thiefs can feast on a lot of 'free' XP however .

I never even allow Sarevok back in. He has proven himself to be worthless. hahaha He has comeback qualities though, I give him that, Clubber Langs out there beware!! Tazok is a cheap cameo nothing more, Firkraag had better hired Noober as a bodyguard.

To anybody who has more insight into this than I have: Is there a quote from Jon why he wants to be a god or is it just the dog and the tail joke?

[BobTokyo]

Here is an interesting post by Maidros discussing how little people you actually *have* to kill in order to progress through BG2-SoA:

http://www.gamejag.c...ewtopic&t=73741

Cool, but he forgot Irenicus and Bodhi.

On the other hand, an (almost) true pacifist can just skip the Planar Prison quest and save two lives!

[Laufey]

I never even allow Sarevok back in. He has proven himself to be worthless. hahaha He has comeback qualities though, I give him that, Clubber Langs out there beware!! Tazok is a cheap cameo nothing more, Firkraag had better hired Noober as a bodyguard.

Implementing Tazok could certainly have been done in a better way. There are enough ogres around that I don't see why Firkraag would go to the trouble of resurrecting a dead one that he would be unlikely to have even met. Far better in that case to have some surviving henchman of Sarevok do it, for whatever reason.

[BobTokyo]

@ GC and slavers: Is this restored in UB, because I never experienced any links or altered dialogues? Perhaps the Improved Battles and Tactics interferes with this.

It was discussed at length in the forums a few years ago, confirmed by one of the game designers, and (iirc) was restored by The Darkest Day by placing notes on the appropriate characters. It was still present in version G of the Big Picture mod, but Koshi's note was eventually removed by a patch. The rest of the notes and diary entries may still be found.

[jester]

He has proven himself to be worthless. No, this was a joke of course.

He is a great NPC statswise, but how can I sit around a campfire with a guy I killed thrice and still respect him. If Firkraag should have resurrected someone then it would have to be Sarevok. Maybe beyond his reach, but Semaj and Angelo IMO are better choices.

[Laufey]

Implementing Tazok could certainly have been done in a better way. There are enough ogres around that I don't see why Firkraag would go to the trouble of resurrecting a dead one that he would be unlikely to have even met.

It is not impossible - FK had a grudge against Gorion, and it was Sarevok and Co who killed the man. Plus, FK awareness of PC's existence and the important place PC had in his heart/life/mind etc may be an indicator that FK had contacts with Sarevok. Tazok is a possible middle-man.

Hm...yes, that is correct, I suppose. I sort of wish Firkraag would have mentioned it though - I think that would have been interesting.

[brainless_mushroom]

*does the jig*

Howdeyh! I am the brainless_mushroom of the Common Sense League (CSL for short)!

Erm, I tried to read all the posts... but there are so many of them and I'm just too tired. (*cough*lazy*cough*) But I voted for Irenicus, since he's an interesting character and I'd want to play with him. (Er, not play with him, but like play ToB and have him in the parteee! ) And Irenicus is an intelligent character, so I like him. And I used to like goody-two-shoes, but I've done some growing up and now I don't like 'em as much as I used to. And as Dorotea said, Irenicus won't turn into a goody-goody-where's-my... hoody? So, LET'S REDEEM IREEENICUS! Heh-heh!

...I'm babbling again.