397 replies to this topic

[Laufey]

When it concerns CHARNAME him/herself, I think it's important to remember that he/she is a multitude of different people, so who can really say what it is reasonable for him/her to do? Naturally every CHARNAME won't want to try to redeem Irenicus, no more than every player would want to download this mod in the first place.

I can't agree with this general sentiment. With the exception of completely insane CHANAMEs (always an option), it is very possible to discuss CHANAME's motivation. CHANAME may be brilliant or an idiot, a saint or a monster, but his or her actions ought to make sense from his or her point of view.

As to what that has to do with redeeeming Irenicus...well that's a long argument that has already mostly played out at this stage. If the creators and audience of this mod are happy with the idea that CHANAME must help redeem Irenicus because otherwise he might become a Demon Prince etc... fair enough. An intelligent CHANAME failing to see the problems with that (no way to know that the redemption will work and much easier ways to delay the threat)* is not convincing.

*Note the use of "delay" rather than "nullify", since by that reasoning there is never any way to nullify any threat; any villain can become a greater threat in the afterlife, and good person can fall and become a threat, even feeding all of existence into spheres of anhialtion can't protect us from the terror that is a hostile author...

Well, I would have to disagree of course. Without going into specifics, I certainly think it's possible for a sane and reasonably intelligent CHARNAME to follow the plotline of this mod. Here I could ramble on at length about ways I could see that happening - but I shall spare you that. I'll just limit myself to one detail. Of course there is no way of knowing if the redemption will work. There is *never* any way of knowing that any redemption at all, of anybody, will work. But does that mean it should never be attempted? I don't think so, myself.

Addendum: If you will permit me to use the Star Wars example one more time, Leia thought Luke was being pretty much an idiot in trying to redeem Vader. She had good reasons for thinking so. And yet, in the end, Luke was successful. That story may not work for everybody either, but I know it works for me.

[Laufey]

Would I say that no attempt at reformation (as opposed to redemption) should ever be made? Nope. But when discussing mass murdering torturers with a history of returning to their anti-social behavior despite having been given a chance at reform, I'm more than willing to see them locked up and forgotten.

As to Vader, his sole "good" act after an adult lifetime of (PG rated) evil was to refrain from actually murdering his own son. That Lucas thought this was enough to constitute redemption just shows that even successful and imaginative story-tellers can have an off day.

*grin* Well, Vader got killed right after choosing to repent - so in all fairness, he never had much of a chance to do anything else. And he did sacrifice his life as well, which I think was not only to save his son, but to bring down the Emperor.

[Laufey]

Well, I would have to disagree of course. Without going into specifics, I certainly think it's possible for a sane and reasonably intelligent CHARNAME to follow the plotline of this mod.

By the way, I fully concede that the plotline may be better constructed than it looks from my limited view-point on the outside; Dorotea is a tallented writer.

On the other hand, so was Lucas, and Jedi and the two new SW films were only fair at best.

I would be the first to agree that the two Prelude SW films weren't as good as they might have been, but I attribute that to Lucas relying to heavily on special effects (not to mention using Jar Jar Binks) and not focusing enough on the characters. At least I am reasonably certain that Dorotea won't have hordes of robot drones in this mod.

[jester]

As to Vader, his sole "good" act after an adult lifetime of (PG rated) evil was to refrain from actually murdering his own son. That Lucas thought this was enough to constitute redemption just shows that even successful and imaginative story-tellers can have an off day.

In Fantasy and this SF setting it is just not 'one man, one vote'. One single act can change the course of things and outweigh many lifespans. I always feel appalled in this thread when people talk about mass murderers. If you are not playing a Swordangel you have left so many corpses in your wake you truly qualify as the heir of Bhaal by the end of ToB, even as a Paladin. So there is a certain tilt towards some beings in Faerun which are more (important) than others. As Jon is not just any fallen elf, his redemption should shake the Realms just as our ascension to godhood.

[off-topic]
BTW Lucas seems spent. He only has off-days now. [/off-topic]

I am quite certain that Dorotea's RtlR will carry the day.

[Kish]

I always feel appalled in this thread when people talk about mass murderers.

It always annoys me when people talk as though all killing is morally identical--self-defense equivalent to killing for power, killing in defense of others just the same as killing for fun. Yes, you have to kill thousands of people in BG; no, you do not have to murder any of them.

[jester]

I always feel appalled in this thread when people talk about mass murderers.

It always annoys me when people talk as though all killing is morally identical--self-defense equivalent to killing for power, killing in defense of others just the same as killing for fun. Yes, you have to kill thousands of people in BG; no, you do not have to murder any of them.

Are you talking politics or what?? Ok you are right. Let's just say others are murderers and I only use my god-given right to use Worthy Means of Defense to further my righteous cause.


OK, all I am saying is that Jon's atrocities are by no means greater than many other killing sprees. It is not like he could be rightfully banned from redemption IMHO, because he killed Khalid.

Edited by jester, 28 March 2004 - 01:41 PM.

[Hendryk]

I would question Irenicus' qualifications for becoming a Cosmic Terror. I would think that there are two basic ways to reach such status; being able to claim it by one's essence and being entitled to it on the basis of Evil achievement. Irenicus seems to fail on both accounts.

As far as essence goes, he is only a dead, cursed elf. Once the PC has reclaimed the stolen soul and Bhaal essence in Hell, and "killed" Irenicus again, the natural course, it seems to me, would be for the mental deterioration, of which Jon complains in his first journal, to reassert itself even more dramatically.

As far as achievement goes, yes, Jon is powerful but only in a local sense. And I would say that the first rule of the lower planes is "Coming close doesn't count. You *must* succeed!" Irenicus experiences only failure at the key points of his career. While people can "fail upward" in RL, 'failing downward' in Hell is rather less convincing dramatically.

So, while there are plenty of possible answers to these objections, involving the PC, the ToL, death having lifted his curse so he can once again access the universal elven spirit for his own ends, I would need some convincing on the point. I hope I shall experience it.

[dorotea]

Hi guys, I just wanted to say that I do read the thread still, and find it most useful and amusing. Since this weekend I was actually trying to do some coding/writing I am staying away from the argument. But please do go on if you wish. It is definitely a rewarding read.

[Kish]

Are you talking politics or what?? Ok you are right. Let's just say others are murderers and I only use my god-given right to use Worthy Means of Defense to further my righteous cause.

You're free to say whatever you like. It's just if you want other people to listen to what you say that drawing those little, political distinctions between "tortured innocent people to death" and "killed a bandit who came running at him waving a sword" becomes relevant.

[jester]

OK, all I am saying is that Jon's atrocities are by no means greater than many other killing sprees. It is not like he could be rightfully banned from redemption IMHO, because he killed Khalid.

I thought that this rated a slightly lengthier reply;

It was actually a reference to something said about the game mechanics and the whole fantasy setting a couple of pages ago.

I don't claim to know where the line is beyond which spiritual redemption becomes impossible, or when it has been crossed. The argument that some people's lives are vastly more valuable in a cosmic sense than the lives of others is accurate from the point of view of xenophobes, self justifying thugs and hack authors;

In the real world, yes, absolutely, and I never doubted this for a second nor argued against it. I was going for headcount, kish for semantics and morals. The way the game is designed there is no peaceful solution to the game, sadly. Besides there are some who think of history in 'what if' terms and some people might have made a difference IMHO, but I am neither of your three mentioned categories.

it's not an argument I find appealing in fiction, and it fuels quite a lot of violence in the real world.

100% agreed upon. Not part of the argument though. This is not about the real world.

A story that takes Irenicus on the path to redemption as he realizes the depth of the atrocities he has committed might be worth reading;

That is personal development which hopefully occurs. I was arguing about a principle of fairness.

allowing him and those around him to write off his victims as "no one of importance" is not redemption of any sort at all.

I am sure dorotea took care of this and it does not happen. Insight into your wrongdoings are paramount for the process.

You're free to say whatever you like. It's just if you want other people to listen to what you say that drawing those little, political distinctions between "tortured innocent people to death" and "killed a bandit who came running at him waving a sword" becomes relevant.

ok I agree to some point. What about torturing a guilty evil killer to death or killing a bandit who hid himself in a forest somewhere? 'Shades of grey' and B/W people will never agree on this completely. *sigh*

Since it does not really further the cause of this thread I stop here.