397 replies to this topic

[jester]

No reason except for his own supposed mental deterioration. I would say that is a good reason. Just see how Jon his sure of his plans like a James Bond villain. It was all set -minor setbacks aside- and went pretty well for him till we arrived in Suldanessellar.

[Hendryk]

I'm not questioning the quality of his planning. I'm asking "When did he set it all up? Before capturing the PC - indeed, before even learning the PC was anywhere on Toril - or afterwards"? If it was before capturing the PC, why couldn't he simply go ahead with it without bothering with all the folderol under Athkatla and in Spellhold? If the answer to that question, was because his mental condition was quickly unravelling, then it makes Ellesime's punishment seem a lot more rational

Just plot questions about Jon's cv, really. Trying to make sense of it all.

[hlidskialf]

I think he is all about revenge as an  intellectual concept in his head. He does not feel hate or anything else IMHO.

I'd say it's entirely possibly his goals changed when he stole CHARNAME's soul. He was focused on becoming a god, and then suddenly he could feel again and he's like, "...Ellesime! You BITCH!"

Bingo.

[jester]

I'm not questioning the quality of his planning. I'm asking "When did he set it all up?..... If the answer to that question, was because his mental condition was quickly unravelling, then it makes Ellesime's punishment seem a lot more rational

I think his plan was good even without our soul, but with his lifeforce - or insert anything else you like to call it- diminishing time was set against him. That is (only) my take on his story.

[Laufey]

I'm not questioning the quality of his planning. I'm asking "When did he set it all up? Before capturing the PC - indeed, before even learning the PC was anywhere on Toril - or afterwards"? If it was before capturing the PC, why couldn't he simply go ahead with it without bothering with all the folderol under Athkatla and in Spellhold? If the answer to that question, was because his mental condition was quickly unravelling, then it makes Ellesime's punishment seem a lot more rational

Just plot questions about Jon's cv, really. Trying to make sense of it all.

Interesting question...no way to be certain of course, but I have an alternative suggestion. Might it not be that he had set plans up in advance, but that when he learned of the PC he knew that our Bhaaltainted soul would give him that extra edge that might further tip the balance of power in his favor? And so he incorporated the soul stealing into his previously existing plans.

[Hendryk]

I'm not questioning the quality of his planning.  I'm asking "When did he set it all up?  Before capturing the PC - indeed, before even learning the PC was anywhere on Toril - or afterwards"?  If it was before capturing the PC, why couldn't he simply go ahead with it without bothering with all the folderol under Athkatla and in Spellhold?  If the answer to that question, was because his mental condition was quickly unravelling, then it makes Ellesime's punishment seem a lot more rational

Just plot questions about Jon's cv, really.  Trying to make sense of it all.

Interesting question...no way to be certain of course, but I have an alternative suggestion. Might it not be that he had set plans up in advance, but that when he learned of the PC he knew that our Bhaaltainted soul would give him that extra edge that might further tip the balance of power in his favor? And so he incorporated the soul stealing into his previously existing plans.

Certainly that sequence of events is possible; the most probable line, I should think. But what I'm circling around here is what, exactly, the pre-PC Irenicus was fully capable of accomplishing because that reflects back on Ellesime's original judgement and forward in considering what it is that the PC is inviting into the party.

*If* the Irenicus that Ellesime turned loose could think of a plan, negotiate with allies for achieving his revenge but could never actually "push the button" to set it off because his spiritual state (however defined) would shatter first under the pressure, then Ellesime's original judgement looks a lot better but there would remain questions about what sort of psychotic wreck Irenicus would ultimately be as an NPC. I say this in the thought that Ellesime could not originally have foreseen the intrusion of so uniquely useful an individual as the PC which was the missing ingredient enabling Jon finally to overcome the restrictions of his own being and act.

Otoh, if Irenicus was perfectly capable of acting on his plans without the PC, and the PC only added a higher octane fuel to an already ominous machine, then Ellesime was originally guilty of criminal neglegence and the NPC-Irenicus wouldn't need any considerable explanation.

[jester]

I think the main weakness behind her judgement is due to the fact that in this story AFAIK no elf has ever been punished this way before. She had no real knowledge what would happen to Jon.

[Hendryk]

That point isn't really covered one way or the other in the in-game account. I'd be disposed to imagine, though, that she'd asked for some feedback from her divine relations before specifying her sentence. So, in that case, she'd at least have had 'expert opinion' on the probable results.

[jester]

Perhaps she should have gotten herself a 'second opinion'.

[Hendryk]

Certainly wouldn't have hurt. She should've asked Lolth, maybe?

[jester]

In all sincerity now I think that if you do not follow the concept of our God, even the Seldarine had only a certain idea what 'should' happen, but not what Jon was still capable of doing. Either they misjudged his character completely or it was a disguised death penalty with a weakness, namely the unforseen arrival of the bhaalspawn.

Edited by jester, 27 March 2004 - 01:40 PM.

[Hendryk]

I would suggest that there might have been another 'out' clause in line with what Demin says about Irenicus' proving to be "a better man." I think this implies that a suitable course of reflection, repentance and atonement might have fitted Jon for readmittance to the elven race.

For the rest, that depends on how the question of what Irenicus was, in fact, capable of, independently of the boost provided by the PC. I also don't think that we have enough information to arrive at one indisputably "right" answer. I would hope that an Irenicus mod would provide "a" reasonable answer and that the rest of the mod would develop from the basis of the answer chosen.

[Laufey]

Now, of course nobody is forced to agree with those opinions, but I still think that if one truly wishes to offer helpful insights on this mod, one still needs to accept the basic premise for it.

Why hold a poll if you're not allowed to respond with contrary opinions?

Please reread my original post - I think you will find that I specifically stated that you have a right to whatever opinions you hold.

If you reject that basic premise, then there is no way you can offer useful input on how the specific details of that redemption work, because you have decided from the start that the entirety of the mod is impossible, and nothing will satisfy you.

I reject the basic premise that I will ever want to eat dirty socks, but I can still help the Dirty Socks Cafe understand that people might be more inclined to eat dirty socks fried in batter and coated in maple syrup that they would be to eat dirty socks that have been dredged through thumbtacks and boiled in motor oil.

Hm...I seem to have offended you somehow, and that was honestly not my intention. Am I then to understand from this comment that you think it *is* possible to write a credible redemption of Irenicus, only not in the way Dorotea is doing it? Because unless I am mistaken, what I have seen you challenging is the concept of redeeming him at all, not the particular way she is going about it. If you can provide that 'maple syrup' and offer suggestions on what you think would make a redemption of Irenicus believable, then I'm sure it would be appreciated.

So...how would *you* redeem Irenicus? Pour that maple syrup on as thick as you like it, I'm sure it will be an interesting read. (A serious one, mind you. I'm sure you could write a humorous piece on it, but that's not really what I'm asking for here.)

[Laufey]

I believe it is possible to write a less incredible (or, if you prefer, more credible) redemption of Irenicus.

Merja recently gave me the same assignment. If she has IM logs of our recent discussions, they're probably more coherent than anything I'm going to come up with now. Ask her nicely for them. I believe she specifically challenges me to tackle the problem of "absolution", which I think is pretty impossible to achieve, but maybe I said something valuable in there and can say it here.

- I think simplicity in the setup is key. The backstory to the redemption is loaded with "might be" and "it says in this sourcebook" clauses. These clauses seem to exist so that various characters and perhaps the player/PC will be more inclined to accept Irenicus's presence, but I feel what they actually do is compound to make the situation even more difficult to believe in--specifically, the whole "Irenicus will become more powerful and the gods need an intervention" angle. While Sourcebook X may say "Under XYZ conditions, a high-level elven mage cast out of the elven family who goes on to steal the soul of a Bhaalspawn, etc. may become a powerful demon lord even when it looks like he's being rended to tiny bits in a sea of lava by hordes of demons", a lot of players (demonstrably) are saying "...what?" And while, yes, I am an enemy of making decisions based on majority response to a forum thread, I think in this case there's a significant problem closing the gap between the depiction of Irenicus in the end movie and the idea that he is some sort of credible threat to the multiverse. To continue our culinary theme, it's only making the dish harder to digest, both for reasons of complexity and plausibility. As an opening course, it's not terribly welcoming.

Strip the story down to the barest necessities, which to my mind are Ellesime, potentially troubled by thoughts that "My goodness, I handled the whole Joneleth thing poorly, didn't I?", the PC ('cause it's his/her game), and Irenicus. The current "jailbreak" is so convoluted as to be exceedingly difficult for a skeptic to accept.

This also means that any NPCs who should not reasonably be expected to tolerate the presence of a man they have sworn to destory... should not be reasonably expected to tolerate it. Don't complicate the story in order to keep them around. They are expendable to the story, as noted above. I'm sure I've said this already, but the scenario requires tough decisions, so make them. Don't over-engineer the story so that some fanboy can keep their favorite NPC in the party.

- Regret over punishment "incorrectly" meted out does not necessarily equate with absolution for the crimes that stemmed from the punishment phase, and definitely doesn't translate to absolution for the crimes that made the first punishment necessary in the first place. Irenicus is still a murderer and traitor. Whether Ellesime wants to give him a pass for the second incident is what the "redemption argument" should boil down to, in my view. But he is still guilty of his initial offenses, and I can't think she was terribly encouraged by (as I pointed out) what he chose to do with his life after he managed to restore himself.

This is where I can't close the gap between the problem presented and an "absolution" outcome, because I do not see the elven community credibly absolving Irenicus for his crimes. However shaken Ellesime's rule may be by the choices she made in the Joneleth/Irenicus Affair, giving him a free pass because the sentence was lacking in its execution (because it lacked his execution, har har) will hardly boost her approval rating in the Streets of Suldy. Could it mean letting him walk? ... eh. Unlikely, but less unlikely than slaughtering the fatted calf. And that is, after all, what you asked me about.

Ah, now this is more like it! As I said, an interesting read, and it makes your POV far more comprehensible to me. I will not go into debate over it - I am not writing any of the main dialogues for this mod after all - so I will leave that for Dorotea should she choose to.

Edited: I forgot to ask one more thing. Here you go into how you think Ellesime et al would react to things, but I am also wondering - do you think it is possible for Irenicus himself to come to a point where he wants to turn a new leaf? Because that was what you seemed to be arguing against before, and I think it's far more important than anything else. See, I personally don't think the redemption hangs on him being forgiven every crime he has done in the past, I think the important thing is that he regrets his past crimes, and wants to compensate for them, and that is what I think absolutely has to be believable. If Dorotea gets that right (and I think she will) then I will be satisfied.

[jester]

This also means that any NPCs who should not reasonably be expected to tolerate the presence of a man they have sworn to destory... should not be reasonably expected to tolerate it.

I think it is good gamewise to make hard choices as JC pointed out. Trade Imoen and Jaheira against Jon? No prob! I send them away without hesitation. Forcing NPCs on me was the weakest design decision in BGSoA anyway.

[Laufey]

This also means that any NPCs who should not reasonably be expected to tolerate the presence of a man they have sworn to destory... should not be reasonably expected to tolerate it.

I think it is good gamewise to make hard choices as JC pointed out. Trade Imoen and Jaheira against Jon? No prob! I send them away without hesitation. Forcing NPCs on me was the weakest design decision in BGSoA anyway.

As for me, I prefer it the way that it has been set up so far. Imoen, Minsc and Jaheira don't unconditionally accept CHARNAME's decision to take Irenicus along, and the player has to be very convincing in order for them to accept it. Which is as it should be, I think. But I do think that they'd be at least inclined to listen to CHARNAME's reasons, before deciding whether to walk out or not.

When it concerns CHARNAME him/herself, I think it's important to remember that he/she is a multitude of different people, so who can really say what it is reasonable for him/her to do? Naturally every CHARNAME won't want to try to redeem Irenicus, no more than every player would want to download this mod in the first place.