One of life's many mystery's.Another thing worth wondering about is this: if Sarevok "saw the signs" of the PC's heritage while at Candlekeep, why didn't he see those signs in Imoen??? I got the impression that Sarevok had almost a "supernatural" sense of who the PC was, and there was no way of hiding it from him, either.
Am I the only one?
Started by
-aqw-
, Oct 22 2002 04:03 PM
36 replies to this topic
#21
Jinnai
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Bye Sanzo! You'll play with me again next time?
Posted 04 June 2003 - 11:45 AM
#22
Kish
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- 1265 posts
Posted 04 June 2003 - 12:20 PM
Not much of a mystery, really. Imoen wasn't a Child of Bhaal in BG1.
http://www.moveon.org/fox/
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change."
--Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan
#23
Dan_Co9
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- Member
- 11 posts
The Master Zubair
Posted 04 June 2003 - 12:43 PM
In BG1, I saw Imoen as just a girl from back home, more or less. She was a girl that grew up in the same place as you, but not necessarily a best friend or even sister figure. While I could have certainly bought into such a relationship, there was really no presentation of it (like someone else said, BG1 NPC development was, well, non-existent). So I just pulled her along feeling like she was an old acquaintance, and kind of a chirpy, annoying, tagalong, but sort of endearing one.
But of course, BG2 changed all of that. BG2 absolutely gave me the impression that the PC and Imoen had a powerful big-brother (well, in my character's case it was brother) little-sister relationship. You know, he's the older guardian kind of figure and she's the cheery little brat. Then it was all intensified ten times by Imoen's Irenicus-induced trauma and her rescue. I think that the PC-Imoen relationship is wonderfully complete as-is in BG2.
I've had a hard time seeing how the PC and Imoen could develop a romantic relationship without having to totally rewrite a major portion of SoA's tone and thematic structure. I could buy it had it started in BG1, but then I don't it could have coincided with SoA's plotline.
So yeah, personally, I find a romance between the two hard to swallow. But then again, who knows, Quitch (or someone else) might yet surprise me.
But of course, BG2 changed all of that. BG2 absolutely gave me the impression that the PC and Imoen had a powerful big-brother (well, in my character's case it was brother) little-sister relationship. You know, he's the older guardian kind of figure and she's the cheery little brat. Then it was all intensified ten times by Imoen's Irenicus-induced trauma and her rescue. I think that the PC-Imoen relationship is wonderfully complete as-is in BG2.
I've had a hard time seeing how the PC and Imoen could develop a romantic relationship without having to totally rewrite a major portion of SoA's tone and thematic structure. I could buy it had it started in BG1, but then I don't it could have coincided with SoA's plotline.
So yeah, personally, I find a romance between the two hard to swallow. But then again, who knows, Quitch (or someone else) might yet surprise me.
#24
Riona
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- Member
- 193 posts
Posted 05 June 2003 - 01:18 PM
Yeah, you're right about that. Maybe Imoen just happened to stay out of his way--by choice or by chance.I thought I recognised the avatar, but I haven't watched anything Tenchi Muyo related in ages. I sometimes love the style of art seen in Japanese animated films and Japanese RPGs, especially.
Sarevok could've sensed the essence of Bhaal within a person when in large quantities. We are led to believe that the most powerful Bhaalspawn possess most of Bhaal's essence after all. It would also explain why the PC has such extraordinary abilities. Imoen could've hosted less of the fuel for Bhaal's return. Other than that, perhaps Sarevok just didn't meet Imoen, given her sneaky nature of course.
And I'm glad you like my avatar (you too, Jinnai!). Washuu is one of my favorite characters--next to Kagato of course.
"Figured it out, yet?"
#25
Riona
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- 193 posts
Posted 05 June 2003 - 01:20 PM
In my opinion, she still isn't, but that is only because I didn't like what the designers did with her story. I thought she was a fine enough character without being the child of some god.Not much of a mystery, really. Imoen wasn't a Child of Bhaal in BG1.
Even after you rescue Imoen, the whole "Imoen is also a Child of Bhaal" feels like such an afterthought in it's execution.
"Figured it out, yet?"
#26
Riona
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- Member
- 193 posts
Posted 05 June 2003 - 01:22 PM
When I played the first game, I was playing the type of character who would think of Imoen as something of a best friend or even sister, but it isn't a feeling everyone would have to embrace. Your PC can be anyone--you can literally play a character who hates Imoen.In BG1, I saw Imoen as just a girl from back home, more or less. She was a girl that grew up in the same place as you, but not necessarily a best friend or even sister figure. While I could have certainly bought into such a relationship, there was really no presentation of it (like someone else said, BG1 NPC development was, well, non-existent). So I just pulled her along feeling like she was an old acquaintance, and kind of a chirpy, annoying, tagalong, but sort of endearing one.
"Figured it out, yet?"
#27
Quitch
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Perfection
Posted 06 June 2003 - 06:57 AM
This is the reason I intend to give the player a lot of choices. Not everyone thinks about Imoen in the same way. Lock her in the cage she frees you from for all I care (and if that can be implemented, it will be).
Past: Ascension, Return to Windspear, Imoen Relationship, The Broken Hourglass
"Perfection has no deadline"
#28
Starx
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- Member
- 2 posts
Posted 17 June 2003 - 08:16 PM
Reply to first poster:
Nope, you are not alone.
When I first played BG1(English version), I never once thought she was your sister.
I actually thought she would be your romantic interest, like Sarevok and Tomoko.
Of course, after hearing about BG2: SoA, I got it and was surprised that she suddenly became your sister.
Her new portrait was a definite plus though.
Considering that it is necessary for her to get out of the dungeon safely for the game to advance.
Of course, after you rescue her, anything goes.
Because really, you may not even plan to rescue her all along and just wanted power, which would be the second reason why you chase Irenicus, according to the storyline that is.
Nope, you are not alone.
When I first played BG1(English version), I never once thought she was your sister.
I actually thought she would be your romantic interest, like Sarevok and Tomoko.
Of course, after hearing about BG2: SoA, I got it and was surprised that she suddenly became your sister.
Yes, since she was my favorite character in BG1.I am curious: would everyone still have found Imoen so endearing if she had kept her [ugly] BG1 portrait?
Her new portrait was a definite plus though.
I don't think you should do that, freedom may be nice, but that won't follow the story lines at all.This is the reason I intend to give the player a lot of choices. Not everyone thinks about Imoen in the same way. Lock her in the cage she frees you from for all I care (and if that can be implemented, it will be).
Considering that it is necessary for her to get out of the dungeon safely for the game to advance.
Of course, after you rescue her, anything goes.
Because really, you may not even plan to rescue her all along and just wanted power, which would be the second reason why you chase Irenicus, according to the storyline that is.
#29
Quitch
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Perfection
Posted 17 June 2003 - 11:59 PM
What, because you lock her up she can't break free again? As I said, I don't intend to change the story.
Past: Ascension, Return to Windspear, Imoen Relationship, The Broken Hourglass
"Perfection has no deadline"
#30
Jinnai
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- Member
- 377 posts
Bye Sanzo! You'll play with me again next time?
Posted 18 June 2003 - 12:32 AM
Do you really think with her skills as a theif and a mage she'd be stuck in there for long (assuming she's in good condition)Lock her in the cage she frees you from for all I care (and if that can be implemented, it will be).
#31
-True_Sheol-
-True_Sheol-
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- Guest
Posted 18 June 2003 - 12:45 AM
I used to follow the Black Isle board quite a bit. As far as I recall, Imoen wasn't intended to be a major character in Baldur's Gate. She was there to assist a new player and the designers expected that players would drop her in favor of another NPC. Well, needless to say that when SoA was in development, the developers found out which NPCs the characters favored (and hated). Dynaheir and Khalid got the axe, as well as a few others. Imoen was later included in the final SoA cast just to appease the 'Immy' lovers.
The romance options were an afterthought. Arbitrarily, they decided to create a romance for each alignment. Imoen wasn't even in the SoA cast at the time and Branwen wasn't popular, so one of the new NPCs, "Aerie", was selected for good characters. "Jaheira", by virture of being the only neutral female character in SoA, became the romance for neutral characters. "Viconia" was selected for evil characters, simply because people who played evil characters wanted to have equal representation... and she was the only female evil character that made it into SoA. ("Sharteel" was not exactly very popular.) Fortunately, they had a much better portrait for her.
Imoen was not as popular as some here might think. A *lot* of posters hated her and dumped her, as expected, right outside of Candlekeep. So, for the developers, she was a wildcard entry. Not much dialogue was planned for her. Even 'her' new portrait was never intended for her. Yoshimo was supposed to be the essential guide to get out of Irenicus' dungeon to ensure that players would have him (and hopefully keep him), but that was dropped and Imoen took his place. At first, Imoen was simply to become an excuse for good characters to go after Irenicus (and that's how it still plays). It was 'leaked' (developer chat) that the original idea was that Irenicus was experimenting with your soul and put part of the taint in Imoen as proof of concept. She was then supposed to die later on to give a "good" player even more reason to go after Irenicus. Well, that idea was canned and Imoen became a fellow Bhaalspawn.
The row over Imoen took the developers by surprise and many of the people that liked the character were more than a little upset. As they say, be careful of what you wish for, because it might come true. For the purposes of romance or anything, I'm not sure if following the final plot device is such a great idea. Due to the gaping plot holes, I think that making a plot-neutral add-on would probably work better and let players think whatever they want about Imoen, be it divine half-sister, childhood friend, trusted companion, or lover.
The romance options were an afterthought. Arbitrarily, they decided to create a romance for each alignment. Imoen wasn't even in the SoA cast at the time and Branwen wasn't popular, so one of the new NPCs, "Aerie", was selected for good characters. "Jaheira", by virture of being the only neutral female character in SoA, became the romance for neutral characters. "Viconia" was selected for evil characters, simply because people who played evil characters wanted to have equal representation... and she was the only female evil character that made it into SoA. ("Sharteel" was not exactly very popular.) Fortunately, they had a much better portrait for her.
Imoen was not as popular as some here might think. A *lot* of posters hated her and dumped her, as expected, right outside of Candlekeep. So, for the developers, she was a wildcard entry. Not much dialogue was planned for her. Even 'her' new portrait was never intended for her. Yoshimo was supposed to be the essential guide to get out of Irenicus' dungeon to ensure that players would have him (and hopefully keep him), but that was dropped and Imoen took his place. At first, Imoen was simply to become an excuse for good characters to go after Irenicus (and that's how it still plays). It was 'leaked' (developer chat) that the original idea was that Irenicus was experimenting with your soul and put part of the taint in Imoen as proof of concept. She was then supposed to die later on to give a "good" player even more reason to go after Irenicus. Well, that idea was canned and Imoen became a fellow Bhaalspawn.
The row over Imoen took the developers by surprise and many of the people that liked the character were more than a little upset. As they say, be careful of what you wish for, because it might come true. For the purposes of romance or anything, I'm not sure if following the final plot device is such a great idea. Due to the gaping plot holes, I think that making a plot-neutral add-on would probably work better and let players think whatever they want about Imoen, be it divine half-sister, childhood friend, trusted companion, or lover.
#32
Quitch
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- Modder
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Perfection
Posted 19 June 2003 - 12:29 AM
I don't intend to start making plot changes. Firstly, it's a sloppy way around any problem. Secondly, it carries with it the danger that this mod suddenly can no longer be used alongside a large number of other mods, should those mods dare to assume the plot is the same as it always was.
From what I've seen, most players have already taken a stance, regardless. Frankly, I consider the plot as is, what makes this mod so interesting, it adds unanswered questions. The is she/isn't she your sister adds some real spice for anyone who wants to try and come on to Imoen. As for the sibling side of things, it really gives you something to talk about.
Due to the gaping plot holes, I think that making a plot-neutral add-on would probably work better and let players think whatever they want about Imoen, be it divine half-sister, childhood friend, trusted companion, or lover.
From what I've seen, most players have already taken a stance, regardless. Frankly, I consider the plot as is, what makes this mod so interesting, it adds unanswered questions. The is she/isn't she your sister adds some real spice for anyone who wants to try and come on to Imoen. As for the sibling side of things, it really gives you something to talk about.
Past: Ascension, Return to Windspear, Imoen Relationship, The Broken Hourglass
"Perfection has no deadline"
#33
Seifer
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- Member
- 4505 posts
The best Anti-Paladin weapon is a tin opener...!
Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:39 AM
I think I'll second that view Quitch. On the idea of narrative alone having something that is somewhat controversial stands out much better then something banal that causes discussion to be null and boring.
Remember that the old cliche rings true here. Folks round here are developing thesr things for their own intrinsic satisfaction and for their 'online community.' The fact that developers might have envisaged something else is not really relevant and only serves to dilute the efforts being made. Look at the Imeon romance over at TeamBg. My own mod covers the much vaunted 'fallen paladin' element as I want to offer my viewpoint on that particular argument. Even here, there is 2 Valgyar romance options, 3 if you look TS.
Lastly, its kinda incorrect to apply thoughts on the original game to modifications. Thats the point in the 'unofficialness' of it!
On that vein, good luck to you Quitch. Looking foward to the mod!
Seif
Remember that the old cliche rings true here. Folks round here are developing thesr things for their own intrinsic satisfaction and for their 'online community.' The fact that developers might have envisaged something else is not really relevant and only serves to dilute the efforts being made. Look at the Imeon romance over at TeamBg. My own mod covers the much vaunted 'fallen paladin' element as I want to offer my viewpoint on that particular argument. Even here, there is 2 Valgyar romance options, 3 if you look TS.
Lastly, its kinda incorrect to apply thoughts on the original game to modifications. Thats the point in the 'unofficialness' of it!
On that vein, good luck to you Quitch. Looking foward to the mod!
Seif
how come you always look so damn cool in every photo I see you in?!?
Speaking of modding, I listened to IER 3 yesterday, so you can have another quote for your signature: how come you sound so damn cool, as well as look it? It's unfair. Seriously.
Still a cyberjock, still hacking the matrix, still unsure of what that means.
TeamBG member - http://www.teambg.eu
#34
-True_Sheol-
-True_Sheol-
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- Guest
Posted 19 June 2003 - 06:10 PM
I haven't been hanging around the BG community very much since 2000 or so, so I have little idea as to what people want. Perhaps it would be interesting to mess with the plot a little and explore the "what-ifs" that made PnP RPGs so popular in college. A "Loose Ends" mod would interesting. I guess the individual mods add a portion of that to the game. Perhaps some added dimension in your relationship with Imoen could open up some great interactivity, but what about filling in plot holes? If there's little fear of making changes, then why not create some answers to those niggling little question?
#35
Quitch
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- Modder
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Perfection
Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:25 AM
Indeed, I have no problem adding to the plot, I simply don't want to change it. I wouldn't mind, for example, having people ask her what Irenicus *really* did to her.
Past: Ascension, Return to Windspear, Imoen Relationship, The Broken Hourglass
"Perfection has no deadline"
#36
Thanatos
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- Member
- 52 posts
God of Peaceful Death
Posted 20 June 2003 - 03:32 PM
Well... in BG1, I REALLY didn't see her as a sister like figure... I mean, she was too playful and too obviousily caring for the PC, for me to even think that she'd be the PC's brother. I mean, little sister's are usually incredibly playful, and try to hide the way they feel towards their siblings because of their immaturity. Or, they'd be very caring towards their siblings, without being overly playful or annoying.Who never thougth of Imoen as a Sister?
When I hear about romances I thought Imoen would be one of them, and when I started playing, I held off on other romances to rescue her, only to discover that she was not romancable (is that even a word?).
I wend looking for mods and everyone is talking about 'she is charname's sister'.
Am I really the only one who doesn't see them that way?
Actually, if I considered anyone in the game to be sisterly at all, it would be Jaheira. She's perfect for the role of the older sister. Strict, independent, clearly has an attitude, and a quarterstaff shoved halfway up her *cough*.
Well, those were my 2 cents.
~We're all doomed~ Xan
Xan's Keep, finding lots of neat stuff including the most up-to-date information on Rowan.... and other stuff that MIGHT attract your interest...you're still here?
Xan's Keep, finding lots of neat stuff including the most up-to-date information on Rowan.... and other stuff that MIGHT attract your interest...you're still here?
#37
-The Imprisoned One-
-The Imprisoned One-
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- Guest
Posted 01 August 2003 - 02:28 AM
@Quitch:
Yes! Ye old question about the "so-called-might-be-possible sexual abuse" of Irenicus, a question never to be solved? Well, the only one who knows about that is the creator himself ... leading me to my next question about you: "Are you a creator? Did you help to create BG (a programmer, story writer a.s.o.)?" ---> If you mentioned that once, I'm sorry for not reading it, cause i'm on that page for the first time. ---> and if you're a creator, you might know about what really happend. => As for me, I stopped to think about a possible rape caused by Joneleth, when Sarevok (in ToB) tells Imoen, that he knows what Iren has done to her, and that he can see the knifes, with which he has cut her skin (the only thing that made me think of an abuse, because she once says that Irenicus has CUT her ... you know that CUT can stand for something else than a wound caused by a knife)
Furthermore I can't imagine that the creators would let it happen that this cute, nice and friendly little girl would be punished that way ...
I just think, that the creators didn't let Imoen say exactly what Iren did to her, so that the gamer can think about a really horrible torture, because if you call that evil by its name, it is not that evil any more: for example: I got hit on the head ---> doesn't sound any brutal, ey? ... But if you say, he did something brutal to me, you wouldn't think of something like, that, but something more cruelly.
But is nature of human, always to think about abuse and sex a.s.o. ---> ok, it is perhaps the most brutal way to torture a girl ... but do we always have to think about it? (I know that this doesn't belonge here, but in the abuse threat, so I'll stop bout that)
@all: (sorry for my bad english, cause I'm from Austria, no, not Australia: AUSTRIA)
I started to play BGI and in the beginning, it is clear, that you know Imoen not to be your "true" sister, but a girl, you grew up with.
So, honestly: Candle Keep is really small, and did you ever see lots of people there? Especially in YOUR age??? Nope ... and now the situation: one day you meet a girl at your age (you meet when both of you are about 10 to 15 (i guess) years old, cause Immy comes to the Keep 10 years older than the mainchar was when he came there) so you meet that Girl when you're about 12 (or older) and then you grow up with her.
Finally your in puberty, so the girl ... and no other girls or boys around ... Well, what I want to say is, that I can't imagine, that Imoen and the mainchar hadn't just friendship feelings for each other ... I DON'T think that they where never thinking of a possible sexual relationship, neither do I think that they didn't have wet dreams when everyone is lying in her and his bed, (Immy thinking of mainchar and the other way) ... this wouldnot be possible.
As for me, I can't imagine not to have sex with a girl, i used to life with for so long, expecially at a place like the Keep ... and let us remember that Imoen came there when she was 10 years older than the mainchar was when he came there, so he (let us think mainchar is a man) was 10 years longer in the keep an they meet, when they are about 10 to 15.
what I wanna say?
---> I don't think that Imoen and the mainchar where JUST playing tricks on the monks in freetime, but surely having some other "conversations" in her or his room, or concretely: in her or his bed.
But as we know, they're is in BGI never really a comment or something else, so that we can think of a possible sexual intercourse between male mainchar and Imoen, which means that in BGII a romance would be totally strange, because then, they got bigger problems than just thinking about ... ok, lets quit that
But whats the climax of that all? ---> when I was playing BGI (I played it, soon after it appeared), I thougth that it is strange, that neither my male char or Imoen ever showed any interests in each other, or just talked about something might have happend ...
sorry fellas if I say something wrong now, but if I was the mainchar (i'm male), I would have shown some other intersts in Imoen, when we lived in Candle Keep. Not just playing tricks, or doing mess, but doing something else you might now imagine what that is, eh?
Yes! Ye old question about the "so-called-might-be-possible sexual abuse" of Irenicus, a question never to be solved? Well, the only one who knows about that is the creator himself ... leading me to my next question about you: "Are you a creator? Did you help to create BG (a programmer, story writer a.s.o.)?" ---> If you mentioned that once, I'm sorry for not reading it, cause i'm on that page for the first time. ---> and if you're a creator, you might know about what really happend. => As for me, I stopped to think about a possible rape caused by Joneleth, when Sarevok (in ToB) tells Imoen, that he knows what Iren has done to her, and that he can see the knifes, with which he has cut her skin (the only thing that made me think of an abuse, because she once says that Irenicus has CUT her ... you know that CUT can stand for something else than a wound caused by a knife)
Furthermore I can't imagine that the creators would let it happen that this cute, nice and friendly little girl would be punished that way ...
I just think, that the creators didn't let Imoen say exactly what Iren did to her, so that the gamer can think about a really horrible torture, because if you call that evil by its name, it is not that evil any more: for example: I got hit on the head ---> doesn't sound any brutal, ey? ... But if you say, he did something brutal to me, you wouldn't think of something like, that, but something more cruelly.
But is nature of human, always to think about abuse and sex a.s.o. ---> ok, it is perhaps the most brutal way to torture a girl ... but do we always have to think about it? (I know that this doesn't belonge here, but in the abuse threat, so I'll stop bout that)
@all: (sorry for my bad english, cause I'm from Austria, no, not Australia: AUSTRIA)
I started to play BGI and in the beginning, it is clear, that you know Imoen not to be your "true" sister, but a girl, you grew up with.
So, honestly: Candle Keep is really small, and did you ever see lots of people there? Especially in YOUR age??? Nope ... and now the situation: one day you meet a girl at your age (you meet when both of you are about 10 to 15 (i guess) years old, cause Immy comes to the Keep 10 years older than the mainchar was when he came there) so you meet that Girl when you're about 12 (or older) and then you grow up with her.
Finally your in puberty, so the girl ... and no other girls or boys around ... Well, what I want to say is, that I can't imagine, that Imoen and the mainchar hadn't just friendship feelings for each other ... I DON'T think that they where never thinking of a possible sexual relationship, neither do I think that they didn't have wet dreams when everyone is lying in her and his bed, (Immy thinking of mainchar and the other way) ... this wouldnot be possible.
As for me, I can't imagine not to have sex with a girl, i used to life with for so long, expecially at a place like the Keep ... and let us remember that Imoen came there when she was 10 years older than the mainchar was when he came there, so he (let us think mainchar is a man) was 10 years longer in the keep an they meet, when they are about 10 to 15.
what I wanna say?
---> I don't think that Imoen and the mainchar where JUST playing tricks on the monks in freetime, but surely having some other "conversations" in her or his room, or concretely: in her or his bed.
But as we know, they're is in BGI never really a comment or something else, so that we can think of a possible sexual intercourse between male mainchar and Imoen, which means that in BGII a romance would be totally strange, because then, they got bigger problems than just thinking about ... ok, lets quit that
But whats the climax of that all? ---> when I was playing BGI (I played it, soon after it appeared), I thougth that it is strange, that neither my male char or Imoen ever showed any interests in each other, or just talked about something might have happend ...
sorry fellas if I say something wrong now, but if I was the mainchar (i'm male), I would have shown some other intersts in Imoen, when we lived in Candle Keep. Not just playing tricks, or doing mess, but doing something else you might now imagine what that is, eh?
