243 replies to this topic

[kirkjobsluder]

Is there a character in Baldur's Gate 2 who isn't gay/bisexual?

Witht the power of modding then not really

Hrm, I guess I found the comment to be patently unfair. I don't see this mass move to make everybody gay or bisexual. In the case of Sola, Nalia and Imoen there is a distinct lack of information that opens the door to other interpretations. For Nalia, the only thing we know about her sexuality is that she's willing to walk away from her family home to avoid a political marriage. Imoen is a complete void in terms of sexuality and my personal opinion is that bisexuality is much more reasonable than a romance with CHARNAME. I also don't have a problem with the alternate interpretation that pairs her with Kelsey. Sola is a bit more of a leap, but I don't see it as insurmountable given the life stories of gay, lesbian and bisexual people I know.

[Lady LeFay]

I personally never played with Chloe, and as for mod conflicts, I will only focus on the blaring obvious ones (like an Undead Hunter and a Vampire in same party without conflict).

For those fearing of a so-call "Gay romp" the only characters that already exist in BG2 that I would consider "not straight" is Yoshimo (being Bisexual - I just got the impression he was lightly hitting on Haer'Dalis and got rebuffed), and Haer'Dalis ("Trisexual" -- will try anything, he has very sensate attitudes that's colored by his doomguard beliefs). I won't be tampering with already existing romances or dramatically changing characterization.

[Longinus]

I'm wondering what the heck is the point of complaining at length about gay themed mods that include the interpretation that some of the more ambiguous NPCs may not be heterosexual?

I'm complaining because the author's interpretation of an official NPC is often nothing more than a rewrite of their original personality. The authors of these mods make assumptions based on their own preferences and all too often distort those characters into their vision of them. Solaufein is a prime example. Also, how is his and Viconia's sexuality in any way ambiguous based on what we actually know about them?

This is why I recommend writing new characters since the author isn't trying to pretend that their character is an official NPC. I'm not saying a modder can't do a good job of expanding on an original character's personality, but that takes a degree of talent that goes beyond assuming an NPC is gay/bisexual and building upon that.

How is all of this relevant here? Well I don't expect every NPC ally to welcome a gay paladin into their fold without some reservations. I suppose everyone could be rewritten to be nothing but accepting though as if no one has a problem with him. After all, there's no proof in the game that anyone would.

[Lady LeFay]

If you look at my status above, Longius, you would notice that 4 offical NPCs will not tolerate or just disapprove of Dante, and they will not know he's gay, until Dante realizes he's gay at the first.

[Grey Acumen]

I think that L LeFay has the reactions and interactions down fairly well from everything that she has stated. If most of your companions can accept that you are the spawn of an evil god, I think they'll be able to accept a gay person, provided he doesn't hit on them too much.

[Longinus]

If you look at my status above, Longius, you would notice that 4 offical NPCs will not tolerate or just disapprove of Dante, and they will not know he's gay, until Dante realizes he's gay at the first.

Sorry, I was just emphasizing my point with an example of how the interpretation of characters can be taken to an extreme.

[Lady LeFay]

And some conflicts I have written doesn't from from sexuality:

EXAMPLE:

Nalia is a noblewoman who decides the poorer folks must be helped out, throws money at it, Some people call this "Lib Limo Bratism" or Robin Hood from Time Bandits (an upperclass twit who doesn't know about the poor as he's portrayed in it).

Dante is is common-born, and worked his way to his position as a Paladin, but hasn't forgotten his farmer's son days. To him, it's nice Nalia's trying to help, but is going about it all the wrong ways, and her word choice borders on insulting at times (rabble, slumming, etc.).

[kirkjobsluder]

I'm complaining because the author's interpretation of an official NPC is often nothing more than a rewrite of their original personality. The authors of these mods make assumptions based on their own preferences and all too often distort those characters into their vision of them. Solaufein is a prime example. Also, how is his and Viconia's sexuality in any way ambiguous based on what we actually know about them?

Well, to start with, I specifically didn't say anything about Viconia (probably because I've not played with her so I'm unfamiliar.) The specific mod you mention in regards to Viconia has a bigger problem in the basic premise IMO. I mean, talk about rewrites!

But yes, every interpretation is based on assumptions and preferences. Even if you are talking something as minor as Lilacor trying to make it with Jaheira's primary weapon (banter packs). I don't see Sola as being all that bad because Sola is believable given what I've experienced as a bisexual man, and what I've heard and read within the lesbigay communities. Given how little dialog we have with Sola, I don't see that his heterosexuality is set in stone. Nalia and Imoen are even more believable to me.

This is why I recommend writing new characters since the author isn't trying to pretend that their character is an official NPC. I'm not saying a modder can't do a good job of expanding on an original character's personality, but that takes a degree of talent that goes beyond assuming an NPC is gay/bisexual and building upon that.

I don't see that as being all there is to Sola's character. I found a lot to enjoy playing with him without the romance. My only objection (other than the copious cheese) is not the conjecture that Sola might be bisexual. It is that the author simply made the same romance open to both male and female primary characters. His sudden abandonment of the Underdark after his whole "true enemies of the drow" speech is more of a stretch for me also. I think the starting point for Sola was not assuming that he was gay/bisexual, but that he would be willing to join the party to start with. Scripting the romance to be possibly bisexual seems like an afterthought.

Lucy's "rewrite" of Nalia consists of a single banter that works within the theme of Nalia's class consiousness. The Imoen/Chloe romance does not strike me as being a radical change in Imoen's character either.

And I don't see any of these mods being promoted as "official".

I guess part of the issue is that as someone writing a gay-themed mod, it seems unfar to say that it starts from the assumption of sexual orientation. In fact, I'm worried that Forrest has become much too complex with a lot of talk about exploring how halflings deal with law vs. chaos in their own communities.

How is all of this relevant here? Well I don't expect every NPC ally to welcome a gay paladin into their fold without some reservations. I suppose everyone could be rewritten to be nothing but accepting though as if no one has a problem with him. After all, there's no proof in the game that anyone would. 

I think that this is really just diverting the discussion. So far, everyone seems to agree that some NPC allies will have problems with a gay protagonist or with another gay character in the party. The big questions are who, why and how.

[Lady LeFay]

Now we got this under wraps I believe, I'll go back to trying to convey my little Paladin's feeligns on being abducted and vampirised.

let's say his reaction is SEVERE

[Grey Acumen]

Yeah. I found Sola's whole attitude change to be more distracting than the fact that he's Bi. I can easily understand that, especially given just how tenuous a hold the drow have when it comes to love. What troubles me is how he completely dropped his gruff, self assurance. Even if it was only a front, I would still expect him to maintain this to at least some extent.

Of course, now I've gone off topic, I apologize, but I hadn't been able to figure out what it was about him that bothered me until now.

[Lady LeFay]

Perfectly all right, Grey, not your fault things got out of hand.

Anyways.

I want to empathize Dante's "pure", empathic and youthful character, not make his homosexuality his main point (after all, he DOESN'T know he's gay right off the ba--er, maybe I should use a different phase?). After all, we can't have a one-trick pony here. (good grief, anyone got a subbed phrase?).

And his pity/hatred of undead, the romance will be affected by the Bodhi abduction as I mention, and he's banter a bit on his personal feelings about them.

[Grey Acumen]

Tell me, have you ever had an instruction book that read; "please insert tab A into tab B" that you actually listened to? I jest.

I don't care enough at the moment to take theses points to their actual forum, nor do I honestly expect anything to be accomplished by doing so.
My only major problem is with Soulafein, and to ask Weimer to simply scrap his current vision of Sola would be completely outrageous. Any of the other NPC mods, I haven't played with yet.

And really, while the other mods are off topic, it is a matter of discussing what was disliked about these mods so that the same occurence does not take place in this mod. It's called learning from previous examples.

[Lady LeFay]

Well, I can be sure I won't have Dante be quoting Blake, Shakespeare, or Frost.

[Deathsangel]

Yeah. I found Sola's whole attitude change to be more distracting than the fact that he's Bi. I can easily understand that, especially given just how tenuous a hold the drow have when it comes to love. What troubles me is how he completely dropped his gruff, self assurance. Even if it was only a front, I would still expect him to maintain this to at least some extent.

Of course, now I've gone off topic, I apologize, but I hadn't been able to figure out what it was about him that bothered me until now.

I back you up on this. My problem with Solnaufein is that he tries to hit on everyone. If you are bi/gay/straight (that doesn't matter what so ever) you still are not like flocking around with every single person on the planet!

Chloe has for me a problem that she is a Demigod (okay will take that), but has an unsurpassable dex, which you can't lower or she can't use her swords. And one of her swords is from Lathander (a good god), while she in TN and stays that way by choice! And she can get strange reactions out of a lot of people (her childish gigles, though she claimes to be a big warrior)

Kesley is great

Valen talks a bit to little

Ghareth is really nice, apparently I kind of like Jase Compton's work

Love the idea of Silverstar though the madmen seem to be almost always elves, even in Watcher's Keep there is one.

And after that summoned up. I still have trouble with this characters age. It is young for a Paladin in my vieuw. And there are so many gods in Fearûn, that no doublty one would allow a gay paladin (thinking here mostly of Tyr, as he is god of forgiveness and has lost one hand. If other gods would even see gay as wrong for a paladin, Tyr should remain forgiving (he even has a lot of the times paladins with a bad history, who he has forgiven and brought on the path of redemption)).

Sorry to be so long and only about 1/3 on-topic

[Grey Acumen]

Nah, I like the idea that you have a younger character in the mix. Everybody seems to think that you have to be old to be able to get anywhere, but in this type of setting, you can gain rank simply through your skill and conviction of your beliefs. Provided that he demonstrated a strong conviction of justice and decency, I see no reason that they would refuse to grant him palidin status.
If his prefrences were later found to be guys, I think that they would be willing to begrudge him that, provided that these preferences were motivated by true caring and compassion and not simple lust. Admittedly, it would be a topic that they would prefer not to discuss, but exceptions are sometimes made for the greater good...

[Bane]

you can gain rank simply through your skill and conviction of your beliefs. Provided that he demonstrated a strong conviction of justice and decency, I see no reason that they would refuse to grant him palidin status

Although you may do well in your particular field they may reject him on the grounds that he is simply not old enough and therefore simply not experienced enough.

Admittedly, it would be a topic that they would prefer not to discuss, but exceptions are sometimes made for the greater good...

True, I believe they wouldn't come to discussions with him unless it is affecting his work and duty to his god. Of course there probably will be some other members of his order who would very unhappy at this (there is always someone unhappy with anything you do ) but wether they affect him majorly is up to Lady Lefay to include in his storyline.

[Lady LeFay]

Yes, his order is involved in one quest of his -- or rather a mentor from it. What happens and why? ^_~

He just barely got his full-fledged "Sir" status, he proved his competence and demeanor, now he has to gain experience as a full Paladin.

You know what? I was talking it over with another friend (Who shall remain nameless to protect the stupid) suggested due to his personality that he should be aasimar. My answer: HELL NO. there's no reason or plausiblity why he should be one, and I personally feel it would reduce his character. excuse me while I hit my stupid friend with a wet mackeral

[Grey Acumen]

You're right, that is stupid. Here, I'll help you.


(Special thanks to Camdawg and Grim Squeaker, who I ripped this off from)