243 replies to this topic

[V. Lokai]

Homosexuality IS normal. Hatred, prejudice, discrimination ARE NOT.

Actually they are. They are basic human emotions and behaviors.

Edited by V. Lokai, 21 August 2004 - 05:21 PM.

[Lady LeFay]

eeeeeh.... guys, can we get off the topic? the troller left a while ago...

[Zandilar]

Heya,

I never said 'unnatural', or 'wrong', as a matter of act, I said it is highly likely that sexual orientation is coded in the genes (therefore, it is natural). The fact that a thing happens, doesn't mean it should happen. And yes, I still believe paladins should not be allowed to sleep with a man or a woman just for the f***.

The question is not whether a simple human should do it, rather on whether a paladin should do it. And I think, that even LadyLeFay (the author of the mod) sees something unfitting in a paladin not having straight affairs, since Keldorn wants to 'turn Dante straight'.

Well, the author has also asked that we let this go, but I just want to say that I think you're looking at this issue through Real World ™ eyes, and what applies on Earth may not apply on Abeir-Toril.

We have some really screwed up social mores regarding sex and sexuality here on Earth... Let me give you an example of a paladin who may not be chaste or celibate.

A paladin of Sune. Sune is a CG goddess who has paladins. She's pretty much the exception to the rule that Paladins must follow a god who is within one step of LG (which is to say, LG, LN, and NG).

Sune is the goddess of beauty, love, and passion. Paladins who worship her are probably not celibate, and definitely not chaste... since they have to be open to love in all of its forms (as part of her dogma). They probably tend more towards "Courtly Love" (not in the strictest definition, because Sune believes in love being consumated as well. Loving from afar is all very well, but it's a lot better if that love is two way.)

Actually, I was thinking Dante might be well suited to Her - since at least some of his issues come from his sexuality, and who he comes to love. Sune definitely doesn't condem homosexuality, since She is the goddess of all love. Also, a Paladin of Sune might find him/herself in some interesting conflicts with both Keldorn (who is a paladin of Torm) and Anomen (who is a cleric/fighter (not paladin) of Helm (?)) - Torm is LG and Helm is LN. While a paladin of Sune would still be LG, Her dogma is not lawful by any stretch.

Does Dante have a deity yet?

[Lady LeFay]

Actually he does -- Lathander the morning lord, a NG deity.

the god is of the mornings, beginnings of journeys (or agreements -- popular for merchants), youth (in some texts it also implies male beauty as well). His allies are Selune and Mystra (if I recall right), his enemies are Talos, Cyric and Shar.

Part of the reason why I chose Lathander is because:
A. He seem more like the kind of god a common-born Paladin would worship (rather then Torm or Helm).
B. taking some of Amuantor's portfolio includes a strong stance on the Undead -- Dante fears/loathes/pities the undead.

though Illmater (please tell me I'm spelling it right!) the crying god is a close choice for the aspects of relieving pain and the mercy aspect.

Edited by Lady LeFay, 22 August 2004 - 02:24 PM.

[Lady LeFay]

getting off the debate.

Dante has a few 'his own only' items.

1. a tiny chunk of silver ore tied with some twine (amulet) -- his twin sis gave it to him as a good-luck charm -- can be removed or sold (!). I'm thinking maybe like an eternal bless spell when worn by Dante. (No, nothing bad happened to her -- though she may try to do something awful to him if he loses it! -- you got to love siblings (since I don't have any))

Haer'Dalis or Jan may play keep-away with it -- much to everyone's chargin.

2. the requisite armor/weapon -- this case a +1 bastard sword that can be upgraded with a few things from the Amuantor temple -- nothing really fancy-looking except a 'princess cut' prism is use for the prommel. Though it will be rendered useless if you talk him into changing classes after the abduction.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

I have no problem the sexuality of charichters.
the ethics of a paladin being gay could make for an intresting story

Definitely.

The ethics of being a straight paladin would be just as interesting, since there is no god in the Realms who has a problem with sexual orientation. Sorry. That is just the way it is. Alignment doesn't influence sexual orientation either. In short, a paladin being homosexual is as much a non-issue as a paladin being heterosexual. Having a loving relationship with someone of the same gender is not an issue in the Realms. (I wonder how many ways I have to say it before people start to believe me?)

Sune is the goddess of beauty, love, and passion. Paladins who worship her are probably not celibate, and definitely not chaste... since they have to be open to love in all of its forms (as part of her dogma). They probably tend more towards "Courtly Love" (not in the strictest definition, because Sune believes in love being consumated as well. Loving from afar is all very well, but it's a lot better if that love is two way.)

Sharess is also a CG deity of hedonism, love etc etc. Perhaps it might be a good idea to look into her description as well and see if you can make something out of it for the paladin story?

Sune is the only Chaotic deity who has paladins.

Sharess is the goddess of hedonism, sensual fulfilment, festhalls, and cats... She does not have paladins.

[Lady LeFay]

*sigh* Thank you Windwalker for reminding them.

*Waving big Picket-style sign* LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER ASPECTS.

[Plasmocat]

We're done? Dang. And I was hoping Zandilar would draw us a picture. re: "Having a loving relationship with someone of the same gender is not an issue in the Realms. (I wonder how many ways I have to say it before people start to believe me?)"

[Lady LeFay]

To be honest, small debates would not be a problem -- but not when it takes up 2/3 of a thread. '''

So how are things going Plasmocat? I got 1 banter with Nalia one, and I will seriously retweaked the existing ones to convey a more innocent character.

[Lady LeFay]

Let's see:

asides from being gay:

- He's the son of a farmer.

- dead loyal to his mentor (Who is a second father)

- sees undead as poor souls trapped in rotting bodies -- his duty to relieve their suffering by killing them.

- a love of unicorns.

- VERY naive about intimacy.

- used to be bullied by his much stronger twin sister because he's too nice. (she's a monk now) But the twins still love each other.

- dislike Necromancers and arrogant nobles.

- is most likely to suggest the less violent path of many quests.

[Lady LeFay]

20% or so, depending on how much rewriting I have to do.

I unfortunately still need a programmer.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

Let's see:

asides from being gay:

- He's the son of a farmer.

- dead loyal to his mentor (Who is a second father)

- sees undead as poor souls trapped in rotting bodies -- his duty to relieve their suffering by killing them.

He'd know that lesser undead, such as skeletons and zombies, are just animated corpses - their souls having fled when they initially died. (He'd have learnt that when he gained his paladin training.)

- a love of unicorns.

- VERY naive about intimacy.

- used to be bullied by his much stronger twin sister because he's too nice. (she's a monk now) But the twins still love each other.

- dislike Necromancers and arrogant nobles.

- is most likely to suggest the less violent path of many quests.

Is there a particular reason why he chose/was chosen by Lathander to be a Paladin? So far he actually sounds more like a paladin of Ilmater (what with relieving the suffering of undead, and choosing the less violent path, even allowing himself to be bullied fits the Ilmatari profile).

He actually sounds like a fairly standard paladin (actually, on second thoughts, he sounds more like a cleric). Is there something that sets him apart? It could be a quirk or flaw of his personality, it could be an unusual event or experience from his past... Like... You could say he had an encounter with a unicorn at dawn and took it to be a sign that Lathander (especially if Dante was a worshiper of Lathander prior to him taking up the mantle of paladin - and given that pretty much all Realmsians (with few exceptions) have a patron deity, I'd say that's the odds are good that he worshiped the Morninglord) was calling him to service - for instance... (Like he saw him/her from a distance, or even that the unicorn came right up and touched Dante's forehead with his/her horn.)

Hope this makes sense...

Edited by Zandilar, 24 August 2004 - 01:45 PM.

[Lady LeFay]

Yea he knows the zombies and skeletons have no souls.

And you hit the nail on the head why he likes Unicorns.

XD he didn't 'allow himself' to be bullied by Sicily, it's just she MUCH stronger then Dante (15 str for Dante, 18/02 for Sicily at 19).

His dad owns a tavern, so he takes offense to some of Nalia's remarks.

Edited by Lady LeFay, 24 August 2004 - 01:51 PM.

[Lady LeFay]

XP Still working.

As you may see from a few posts, some of my moods is... silly, so I've written banter that is completely unsuitable for the mod.

Outtake:
(an actual dialouge gone way out of hand)
Dante: Eat up!
Anomen: Dante... please tell me you've cook before.
Dante: Oh yea, loads of time.
Anomen: then why is my dinner mooing at me?
Dante: Anomen! I'm not THAT bad of a cook, and secondly it's Venison not--
meat: mooooo.
Anomen & Dante: Ayyyie! Bovimbie!