243 replies to this topic

[Immortality]

Ehh... is there any rule in faerun that condemnes a paladin for being homosexual?

I thought the mod was about Dante's feelings and self exploration, not the inquisition...

[Laufey]

Ehh... is there any rule in faerun that condemnes a paladin for being homosexual?

I thought the mod was about Dante's feelings and self exploration, not the inquisition...

As far as I am aware, there is no such rule. What a paladin is or is not allowed to do varies a bit depending on which god he worships - gods place different emphasis on different virtues.

Unless I am entirely mistaken about Faerun, a homosexual relationship in itself would certainly not be enough to make a paladin lose his paladin status.

[Immortality]

Just what i thought

[Zandilar]

Heya,

You might be interested to check this message out about attitudes towards non-standard sexualities in the Realms: Ed's Comments

The author of the message is Ed Greenwood (via Jeff Thetford, one of the list mods), the creator of the Forgotten Realms, and the relevant section is where he's addressing me (Alexandra/Zandilar)... For brevity, here's the bit:

Alexandra (or Zandilar; which do you prefer?), yes, the "original" Realms had many lesbian, gay male, inter-race, and multiple-partner unions (as a matter of calm, everyday norm), but these were simply omitted from the printed version because of TSR's standards (which even forced the change of the word "brothel" on my maps to be changed to "festhall"). And no, to everyone, I'm not a lust-fixated man, I was merely taking the National Geographic approach: "I'm merely reporting what the natives are, and do..."

As you can see by that, there would be no issue with a paladin being gay. No deity specifically denounces/demonizes homosexuality in the Realms. We are not dealing with Real World Religions here. Don't make the mistake of confusing Abeir-Toril with Earth.

I can also point you in the direction of references to homosexual and polyamorus liasions in FR print, though these are usually kind of hidden and only refered to in passing or implied - if you're interested. (They're mostly 3rd Ed references, though, since somehow things seem to have been relaxed, despite Hasbro being stricter with their "family friendly" policy! (In computer games, the opposite has happened, though, with the Festhall in Waterdeep being eliminated totally from NWN:HotU!))

[Plasmocat]

Personally, I always thought Anomen was the worst choice of character to romance a female, NOT because he was so annoying that you have to stop periodically to beat the crap out of him for various reasons, but because I wasn't sure how I felt about a paladin being allowed to have pre-marital sex. Obviously, Anomen has been chaste up to the point of meeting <charname>, why wouldn't he further honor his life choice by marrying her *first*? I never got that.

But, this leads me to my point. If male paladins can take female lovers without impunity, and homosexuality is acceptable according to the Realm's creator, then why wouldn't a male paladin also be able to take a male lover?

I don't see why there should be a double standard, there.

[Immortality]

That being the case, I cannot see why a paladin should not be allowed to sleep with harlots as well. The whole issue about a paladin, is a man (or woman) who has devoted his life to serving his/her deity as an exemplar of the behaviour proposed by the deity. And I can assure you, no paladin deity yet has suggested homosexual behaviour.

You are basically meaning that sleeping with a harlot is the same as sleeping with someone of your same sex? I'd find that very offensive...

[Laufey]

But, this leads me to my point. If male paladins can take female lovers without impunity, and homosexuality is acceptable according to the Realm's creator, then why wouldn't a male paladin also be able to take a male lover?

I don't see why there should be a double standard, there.

As far as I can tell, there is no double standard present, since the paladin gods do not consider homosexuality to be an evil act the paladin should be punished for.

As has been said previously - the fact that certain Earth religions have issues with homosexuals hasn't really got anything to do with Faerunian ones.

[Lady LeFay]

Interesting point you all brought up.

The whole inquistion thing... I really don't want go get into that whole mess -- though yes, people will definitively comment. There are homosexual references in BG2.

If you talk to any of the male harlots (such as on the Pirate Island and the Gnome one near the Bard Stronghold) with a male character, they yell at you to leave... because 'you're cramping my style/you're not part of my clientile'. That shows there is homosexuality in the Realms, just not with them.

Though I do wonder if there are laws against it in Amn, as there is for Infidelity (IMHO, with Anomen's comment of the Radiant not involved in the legal matters of Amn enough (in his opinion), and how Adulterers are punished -- I think it's an Amn law, not a Radiant Heart Law) -- it's just not a strictly enforced one (you got mistresses and nobles openly bragging about their escapades) -- unless there's an ulterior motive to it.

Perhaps we can do a bit of a subquest with the party pissing some noble off enough he'll file Sodomy charges.

[Plasmocat]

But, this leads me to my point.  If male paladins can take female lovers without impunity, and homosexuality is acceptable according to the Realm's creator, then why wouldn't a male paladin also be able to take a male lover?

I don't see why there should be a double standard, there.

As far as I can tell, there is no double standard present, since the paladin gods do not consider homosexuality to be an evil act the paladin should be punished for.

As has been said previously - the fact that certain Earth religions have issues with homosexuals hasn't really got anything to do with Faerunian ones.

That's basically my point in answer to the complaint about the Dante the paladin being homosexual on the grounds that paladins shouldn't do that kind of thing ...

[Lady LeFay]

That's basically my point in answer to the complaint about the Dante the paladin being homosexual on the grounds that paladins shouldn't do that kind of thing ...

perhaps true -- but in all honestly, I don't think there is a pill to choose one's sexuality.

And at the very beginning, Dante's more closer to "What's Sex?" camp.

[Plasmocat]

No no no ... I wasn't ... That's not ... :bash:

Nevermind.

[Lady LeFay]

*giggle*

[Lady LeFay]

homosexuality isn't just about the sex -- with Dante's character, the only way he's going into any sort of relationship -- straight or not -- is that he feels like it's a One True Love situation

[Immortality]

No, I mean that paladins who sleep with harlots and paladins who commit homosexuality have both gone out of their way.

I hope you realise you are condemning a homosexual paladin in the same way you are with a promiscuous one. Now, if being homosexual makes a paladin go "out of their way" will a heterosexual paladin do the same if he/she has sex with someone of different gender? Or paladins only "go out of their way" when they have sex with people of their same gender?

[Plasmocat]

No, I mean that paladins who sleep with harlots and paladins who commit homosexuality have both gone out of their way. They are supposed to be commited to their deity, dream of the skies and the heavenly reign, of how it will be when they are close to their deity. It's a matter of devotion. And while a straight marriage (paladin man with woman) can be justified due to reproduction reasons (bringing a new life to existence), a homosexual relationship has absolutely no heavenly purpose, just the pleasure (in whatever form).

And I'm saying that if it's ok for a paladin to have premarital sex, as in Anomen's case (written by Bioware, btw), and if the creator of the Realms (Greenwood) says that homosexuality isn't considered unnatural or uncommon in the Realms (implying that most gods wouldn't disaprove of it), that it is therefore logical to assume that "permission" to have premarital sex would be extended to paladins of either gender preference.

Unless you're saying that any kind of premarital sex, free or otherwise, is just as wrong as sleeping with harlots, whether homosexual or heterosexual ... which would make your argument stronger, except that with Anomen's story there is a precedent set indicating that such is not the case.

Homosexuals can be just as chaste as heterosexuals for the same reasons heterosexuals might choose to be chaste, and homosexuals can pay for sex just like heterosexuals can, too.

You're trying to equate things that actually have nothing to do with each other in any way.

Edited by Plasmocat, 20 August 2004 - 10:00 AM.

[Lady LeFay]

Not to offend anybody... but homosexual paladin sounds like a cliche... just an upside down one... As if picking this particular class and sexual orientation and mixing them the author is trying to make things more spicy... or picante if you like. How about polygamous Chosen of Cyric instead or a Cleric of Sune with inclinations to bestiality?

I say non-standard sexual orientation is somewhat trendy among mod makers these days... as if making every traditional npc into bi and new homo- npc is a way to make the mod fly...

If you read the backposts, Dante may be gay -- but that's not the ONLY part of his character. His bigger characterisitics is innocence and struggle with piety, self vs. duty.

And equating it with beastiality as you put it is just downright uncalled for and offensive.

And furthermore GUEST -- my character was not originally gay, it was just a trait that he devolped on his own during roleplay, characters can change. When I post him as a suggestion, the only other non-straight NPC I knew of was Chloe, so I was not 'simply following trend'