53 replies to this topic

[Quitch]

Thought I should seperate this out from the titbit topic as I didn't want to spoil anything, nor did I want to put something evil in there, just in case it turns into a debate about the morals of including true evil in a game.

The section below has only just been written, hasn't been proofread, and might never make the mod. However, it is an example of one of the times the player gets to be rather nasty.

It's provided as is. I don't know how evil people will find it. Some might want more (after all, it doesn't include the previous options the player had, it's just one dialogue outcome), others might find it sick and protest that I would consider such a thing, while others might complain it's too mild. I don't know, so I guess topic might be a good way to get an idea of where the gaming community is going to stand.

Here goes:

Standing over Garren, you watch as he realises what you are about to do, drinking in the terror in his eyes. He tries to push you away with his arms, but his resistance is weak and easily overcome.

You place your boot over Garren's throat, and slowly, little by little, increase the pressure. Abject fear is obvious on his face, and he tries to speak, but all that comes out is a gurgle. His body is thrashing beneath you, but as you press down harder it slowly stops.

Tears well in the man's eyes, and he tries clawing at your leg once more; you barely notice. Removing your boot from his throat, you give him time for one last scream before stamping down hard on his face. Bone shatters under your weight, and you leave the body, no longer recognisable as the once noble Garren Windspear.

[Hendryk]

Without any context, it's difficult to judge whether it is Evil or merely nasty. For instance, Garren's reaction seems extreme, and improbably pathetic, if he's merely facing death. If his fate is to be transformed into an eternally damned Undead or an even more Evil Deathknight of Demogorgon, that's another matter.

So if there is some greater Evil purpose in the background, it works fine. If not, then eh?

[Quitch]

I'd be curious to know why you think that. Wouldn't death scare you? Nobility does not make you immune to fear, and who truly wants to die... more importantly, in a world where coming back to life is a simple matter, who wants to die at the hands of someone that means you'll probably never come back because your body is never found?

[Grim Squeaker]

I think in that situation, anyone would turn into a nervous gibbering wreck. Nice work, Quitch. I'm impressed.

[Pixel Kaiser]

I think in that situation, anyone would turn into a nervous gibbering wreck. Nice work, Quitch. I'm impressed.

Here, here! Nice job, Quitch!

[Quitch]

I see the word spoiler is obviously an attractive light source...

[Pixel Kaiser]

I see the word spoiler is obviously an attractive light source...

No, I just don't tend to use evil characters, so I did not think it would matter.

[Hendryk]

I'd be curious to know why you think that. Wouldn't death scare you? Nobility does not make you immune to fear, and who truly wants to die... more importantly, in a world where coming back to life is a simple matter, who wants to die at the hands of someone that means you'll probably never come back because your body is never found?

It's also a world in which the afterlife is reasonably assured for the pure of heart. Garren is of the nobility and at least friendly enough with the Radiant Heart to square the deaths of some members with them on behalf of the PC. So I think he would be familiar with mortal violence and have far less fear of simply dying than you portray. I think also that he would be too proud to show fear to his murderer, even if he felt any. Rage, perhaps, if he still had a chance to fight. Hauteur if he were already helpless but not fear.

I am not simply making up a new attitude toward death either. Recall that it was the custom for the condemned man to joke with onlookers on the way to Tyburn. French aristocrats apprehended by agents of the Terror gave themselves most polished funeral orations before the guillotine. No doubt such exhibitions were the exception rather than, as tradition suggests, the rule but one's performance in such circumstances was generally regarded as the best measure of a man. So, without knowing more of the circumstances, I would think Garren could put up a better show than that.

[Quitch]

As you say, the context has a bearing, and you'll have to wait to see it.

However, there is a difference between a public stand, and a grubby bar room brawl. It's easy to be a hero and save the world, but who wants to die in a little skirmish on the outside of a village no one has ever heard of?

I might also add that the only person to ever tell you that Garren is a noble and good man is... Garren. He tells you a lot of things, and I could tell you I have a heart of gold, and if you came into my arms I'd hold you tight, love you forever... how would you know I was actually planning to cut your throat until you took the plunge?

[Hendryk]

Well, back in chapter 2, he did manage to talk off the Radiant Heart, so that they don't come after you as they would if you skip visiting him. That's at least something of a character testimonial. Too, you did say that there were previous character options so Garren would probably not be completely stunned with surprise to discover that the PC is not his best buddy any longer.

If he has in fact conned everyone into believing that he's the salt of the earth when he's no such thing, well, that would be a fair part of those "circumstances". It might also make the manner of his passing less wicked, but I don't know about that yet.

[FredSRichardson]

I am not simply making up a new attitude toward death either. Recall that it was the custom for the condemned man to joke with onlookers on the way to Tyburn. French aristocrats apprehended by agents of the Terror gave themselves most polished funeral orations before the guillotine. No doubt such exhibitions were the exception rather than, as tradition suggests, the rule but one's performance in such circumstances was generally regarded as the best measure of a man. So, without knowing more of the circumstances, I would think Garren could put up a better show than that.

The guillotine did assure a quick death (the chopping block is another story), and in many of these instances people believed they were dying for a cause and had a good amount of time to think about it. The executions didn't generally come unexpectedly or suddenly.

I wonder what happened in the days when people were drawn and quartered. I believe this was a slow process...

But I think it's reasonable to presume that in this case Garren is hoping for your help since he's probably recieved it in the past (unless you didn't do that Firkraag quest). So I think he would be horrified to suddenly realize your true nature and to see all his hopes dashed to pieces. Then there's the matter of the slow excruciating death.

BTW: nice work Quitch!

[FredSRichardson]

Well, back in chapter 2, he did manage to talk off the Radiant Heart, so that they don't come after you as they would if you skip visiting him.  That's at least something of a character testimonial.  Too, you did say that there were previous character options so Garren would probably not be completely stunned with surprise to discover that the PC is not his best buddy any longer. 

That's a good point.

If he has in fact conned everyone into believing that he's the salt of the earth when he's no such thing, well, that would be a fair part of those "circumstances".  It might also make the manner of his passing less wicked, but I don't know about that yet.

Would a "detect evil" reveal him in this case? Many paladin's can cast that

[Quitch]

Back in Chaper 2 he tells you he talked down the Radiant Heart, but this is never confirmed, and how were they going to know you killed their men when the only witness was... Garren!

Anyway, to me this is irrelevant. I don't really believe anyone WANTS to die, except perhaps for a cause. Even then, who wants to suffer a painful death, whose only purpose is to give pleasure to some cruel and evil god-child? Feel free to argue this point with me, and I might change the dialogue. Of course, I'm letting on to the context, so you might find this a bit tricky, but maybe you'll stimulate one of my colleagues into arguing the point in private. Who knows?

As long as people are suffering, Quitch will be happy.

[Caedwyr]

Back in Chaper 2 he tells you he talked down the Radiant Heart, but this is never confirmed, and how were they going to know you killed their men when the only witness was... Garren!

Since members of the Radiant Heart attack the group when they go back to Atkalatka if Garren hasn't talked to them and convinced them of your innocence, I'd say that is pretty good evidence that he does have some pull with the group.

[rreinier]

Nice work, Quitch! Don't know the context, obviously, but it looks great!

[The Masked Marionette]

Perhaps he wouldn't be afraid of death, but death like *that*? Ouch. That and the way in which it's written seems really rather cold (at least to me) and cold killer is always that much more intimidating.

Besides, I don't think this sounds out of character for Garren at all. I never got the impression that he was bold. Noble, perhaps, but not particularly bold.

I think it's great, Quitch. A great level of evilness- nice and sadistic without crossing any lines.

[Bane]

Ultimately though it falls to the modder to write and produce what he/she wants and then to warn people about the content. Then it is up to the rest of us peons to choose if we want to download/install it.

Crushing Garren is soooo wrong, should give him a quick execution if he is bad but then again to be nit picky if you cast detect evil you won't get anything so either he gets corrupted or he is Chaotic neutral where he does minor evil things.

You don't need context if you are judging whether a horrible killing is wrong or right, if you are good then any horrible killing is wrong

[Galactygon]

You seem dedicated indeed Quitch in your "evilness"!

However, I have one or two arguments -

- Evil characters don't necessarily have to be nasty, but all evil characters are self-serving, so maybe you can have the option to make him pay out of mercy, and then betray him (for non lawful-evil characters), or simply make him miserable by elevating yourself.

This option you wrote above seems more ideal for chaotic evil characters. Lawful evil characters tend to execute their actions in a civilized manner (which can be considered evil). For example some dictators in history (while being evil and enjoying their power) didn't enjoy the inhumanity as much.

Hope you know what I mean, but the one above should definetly be in the game, IMHO.

[Quitch]

Since members of the Radiant Heart attack the group when they go back to Atkalatka if Garren hasn't talked to them and convinced them of your innocence, I'd say that is pretty good evidence that he does have some pull with the group.

Only in so far as he can influence him. Perhaps there's a not so noble memeber he accepted a bribe? Perhaps he played pretend and said he saw evil mercenary group 3 do the deed! Any number of ways... they're noble, and thus extremely stupid

Am I the only one confused by this statement? Perhaps I didn't understand it. Since when would killing Garren (Garren!), so callously mind you, not be evil but merely nasty? (Or, perhaps, since I have a clue as to the context it's not so out of the blue to me)
(edit: on re-reading I understand that there may be a plot twist involved but.. gads)

Anyway.. I'm conflicted about this level of violence in anything. The 'other Imoen mod' gets really graphic as well and I had a hard time falling on one side of the decision or the other. Or, perhaps I did not want to commit, as debating morality gets ugly.

I have said, and believe, there is a time and a place for all things. There will always be a place for masterful writing so long as it doesn't always fall to one side or the other. Or falls to both sides equally?

Trying to make sense of this... just let me say that I feel all consequences should be mapped out. Just as someone who wishes to crush Garren's windpipe should gain the satisfaction of it actually happening, so should there be the threat behind each decision that the consequences will be played out. Skinning the rabbit is easy, but if it's described in graphic detail then there's a possibility that your character may be less likely to choose that option.

If it's evil, then it needs to be evil. Just as players can have the satisfaction, so too must they also reap the consequences. How many people out there do you think really want to stare into the eyes of a man who knows he is about to die?

Ultimately though it falls to the modder to write and produce what he/she wants and then to warn people about the content. Then it is up to the rest of us peons to choose if we want to download/install it.

Crushing Garren is soooo wrong, should give him a quick execution if he is bad but then again to be nit picky if you cast detect evil you won't get anything so either he gets corrupted or he is Chaotic neutral where he does minor evil things.

You don't need context if you are judging whether a horrible killing is wrong or right, if you are good then any horrible killing is wrong

Remember, the goal of this mod is choice. Don't think there aren't several ways to kill him

You seem dedicated indeed Quitch in your "evilness"!

However, I have one or two arguments -

- Evil characters don't necessarily have to be nasty, but all evil characters are self-serving, so maybe you can have the option to make him pay out of mercy, and then betray him (for non lawful-evil characters), or simply make him miserable by elevating yourself.

This option you wrote above seems more ideal for chaotic evil characters. Lawful evil characters tend to execute their actions in a civilized manner (which can be considered evil). For example some dictators in history (while being evil and enjoying their power) didn't enjoy the inhumanity as much.

Hope you know what I mean, but the one above should definetly be in the game, IMHO.

I promised people some proper evil, and there will be some proper evil. However, I play all sides, there will be just as many chances for good, though good parties may find that doing the right thing isn't always easy, and isn't a free ride. Doing good is always harder than doing nothing. This mod may seperate those who wish to be good, from those who truly are.

As I said above, there is a range of choice. I don't believe evil is simply a matter of physically hurting people. Emotional damage can be wraught, and your greed may know no bounds. Don't forget lust, that isn't tamed here either. Oh, and for those who like to wander around with rep 20, "lying" to people, we have fully labelled "Lie:" options... just don't always expect to get away with it.

As I said. Choice.

I do want to point out that there will be choices for all, the reason this is an evil one is because we've all seen a million good dialogues throughout the series, I just wanted to show something different. Don't worry, you get some close moments with your loved ones, one to ones with your sister, sage advice from your colleagues, and lots of chances for the foolishness of sacrificing yourself for others... weak beings, hardly worthy of breathing your air... but as I said, choice is important, and some fools want those options.

Weak, spineless cowards all of them.