528 replies to this topic

[kozand]

General statement:

I hate when it always boils down to sexuality. Yes it is a part of human life but why ALWAYS stress out?

General statement 2:
Imoen has never been meant other then hetero in original official concept. Yes everything is possible but for the sake of consistency and authenticity Imoen should be hetero, not a delusional plaything object of deluded people's sexual inferiority complexes.

General statement 3:
I am not against bisexuals or gays or lesbians.

General statement 4: These are my opinions and I respect yours but u I interpret them as such.

General statement 5: Mods are modifications and add-ons, they are not TS or partial TSs. So Imoen relationship should add something to Imoen character NOT redefine it. This is why I hated official BG2 novel and decided to write my own BG series and I completed 2 vols of 10.

[Quitch]

Much as I appreciate your views, unless you backup statements like "Imoen has never been meant other then hetero in original official concept." without some actual evidence, or argument, then you are wasting your time.

Since I have seen no actual evidence in the game which shows her leanings one way or the other, only debate will sway me, or conclusive evidence.

[Seifer]

I tend to agree with this, there is so much subjectivity when it comes to speculation that it's hard to comment. Several things arise for me;

1) Imeons life has mostly been sheltered before she gets out of candlekeep. With such a clustered environment it stands to reason that she gained little to no sexual experience. Thus, I am surprised by the ability of the PC to hold a romance with little to no experience.

2) Her reaction to the fact she is Bhallspawn is important. BGII really emphasizes her 'niceness' through the fact that she and Irenicus admitted evil things had been done to her.

3) Nothing in the personality and development show so far have shown us that she is a non-conformist, an alternative sexual style would appear out of the question.

[kozand]

Dear Quitch your evidence lies here:

There is no hint showing she is bisexual or lesbian. Although lack of evidence cannot prove she is being hetero, if u consider how the game is handled by Bioware, u will see that she is never meant to be as such.

For instance they hint harlots maybe bisexual (u are not my type sweety ect) or even Edwin-Edwina, but Imoen innuendo? No. Not even one. If they can create Edwina (transexualism -a very intellectual aproach since they elaborate whether gender of bodies can determine gender of mind or not) why there is no bi-Imoen interjection? Because they did not want one.

Nothing can be proven 100% but there is this thing called common sense. If u still insist on this u have to show some proof. Because I never claim she is lesbian u claim. I don't have to prove her 'innocence' so to speak but u certainly have to prove otherwise.

Of course this is my opinion and I would hate to see a bisexual relationship because it is out of the character.

But, u may put alternatives in the relationship leading to different... paths. But I don't like PC reaction manipulating Imoen. She is a grown up woman afterall. Like Weimer, I hate this PC therapy relationships. Characters should really be independent.

I thank u for this decent discussion.

[Mikka]

here is no hint showing she is bisexual or lesbian.

There is, however, no hint showing she is NOT, either.


Let's put it this way :: THERE IS NO PROOF IN THE GAME EITHER WAY. If someone can prove me wrong, I'll be gladly indebted to them. But until someone finds somewhere in the game where Imoen states "I do not like girls in any romantic way", it's not correct to stay she is totally hetrosexual. Bioware left that up to fan interpitation. There's no proof.

It's not fair to decide that just because someone doesn't say outright that they are bisexual or gay, it doesn't mean they aren't. There are very few people that run around the streets screaming their sexuality.


Personally, I think it depends on what sort of experiments were preformed on Imoen. From the way it was talked about, I got the impression that anything would have been done to try and get her Bhaal abilities to react. If this is true, then it might be very likely for Imoen to rather NOT have any sort of romantic relationship with men after what she had suffered. That's just a disturbing issue to get in to, and one I would rather avoid, but it's possible.

I don't think Imeon would go out of her way to date boys, or girls. I think for Imoen, she would be looking for that 'special' person, no matter what sex. I would find it out of character if she refused a 'soulmate' because they were of the same gender as her. She seems like the type to throw herself in to a relationship, and I also think the aspect of a homosexual- 'forbidden' relationship- might appeal to her. I got the impression that the 'love defeats all' motto would be very important to her.

I think the bigger issue isn't gender or race, but the plain 'would she' issue. I personally don't see Bhaalspawn relationships as incest, but Imoen clearly sees you as her brother/sister. Isn't that more of an issue rather then gender? Would she be able to get over that? Or would she even want to get over that? Maybe she's perfectly fine being your sister/brother and best friend.

[Kish]

Imoen clearly sees you as her brother/sister. Isn't that more of an issue rather then gender? Would she be able to get over that? Or would she even want to get over that? Maybe she's perfectly fine being your sister/brother and best friend.

Very much so, yes. Thanks, Mikka.

[kozand]

Imoen romance is a totally different issue, unless this board is also dedicated to Imoen Romance. And we already have one Imoen romance mod.

Again I repeat, if Bioware explored Edwina but not Les Imoen, this means she is not conceived as homosexual officially. Common sense dictates that we should not explore this possibility. But people have right to interpret her character traits as what they see fit.

On the other hand we should explore Edwina because it is officially there (and there is this Edwin Romance mod project). Let's put it this way, yes I don't see cyclopes in real world but of course I cannot prove 100% that there were no cyclopes in past and they will never be. But reasonably I can say this: Cyclopes does not exist in real world.

"She seems like the type to throw herself in to a relationship, and I also think the aspect of a homosexual- 'forbidden' relationship- might appeal to her."

I disagree with the last part. But she has sexuality! Do u remember Anomen-Imoen banter about Kama-Sutra like book from Radiant Heart to Candlekeep thingy? It was in ToB I think.

At any rate, if majority or IR mod maker decide Imoen will be LESBIAN what can I say, beyond stating this? I won't play such mods.

Really I won't speak about this further, I prefer to contribute Imoen relationship in different ways. Like friendship talk ideas ect. If I can ever suggest one that is.

[Littiz]

Personally, I think it depends on what sort of experiments were preformed on Imoen.  From the way it was talked about, I got the impression that anything would have been done to try and get her Bhaal abilities to react.  If this is true, then it might be very likely for Imoen to rather NOT have any sort of romantic relationship with men after what she had suffered.  That's just a disturbing issue to get in to, and one I would rather avoid, but it's possible.

I don't believe Imoen suffered tortures related to sex.
She says immediately to you (the PC) that she suffered the same thing as you, and you have
50% chances to be a male.

This, unless we're ready to start a debate about IRENICUS' sexuality...

[Quitch]

There was no rape. That much I can confirm.

[ak404]

Hm....any romantic options with Imoen are going to be a hella more complicated than any other character in the game, mostly because you're talking something that'd have to go way beyond the scope of even Baldur's Gate. Here're my two cents, as disjointed as they may be.

In Imoen's case - being with the PC for more than a decade - it's much less a case of sexuality and romance and one more of stability. Romance is for two people who don't know each other very well, which is why it works so well with Aerie and Vicci, but seems weird with Jaheira and would definitely be off-base with Imoen. For Imoen, I think, "romance" would have to be exchanged for a state of...er, soulmate-ness (for lack of a better term); the potential is definitely there, regardless of gender (as love is generally about intimacy {physical, spiritual, and mental} and stability, both of which the PC can provide...providing the PC can survive the game.) <_< Love and romance is all about the soul: the body, the plumbing, that's just meat and bone.

But back onto the potential, even Sarevok sees that Imoen is pining for the PC (if male, haven't gone too far with a female character) when he takes in Imoen's soul (it would've been interesting if Sarevok took in a piece of yours and spoke of the PC's longing for Imoen, but whatever), so the spark is definitely there. I think she'd be thrilled with just holding hands, and kissing would just be perfect, but anything else might be going too fast and too far for something that's been ten years in the making. The PC is taking a lifelong friendship into some very dangerous territory, so I don't think either character would want to rush it; after all, they're already close, they already know they're going to be there for each other, what else do they really need? So in the case of a romance, it should be there, but the sex-ness just isn't going to be there (given Immy's cheerful nature and the PC's somewhat sheltered life - I'm talking a good character here - I've little doubt that any sex'd be their first, which means even more hesitation); I doubt the PC should get past second base, much less third.

[kozand]

Actually this why I find existing Imoen Romance a bit forced. Very good mod, adds in-depth detail. I considered this since I am novelizing BG series. I think I will go for Imoen-Sola romance instead.

Imoen has never been meant for PC romance (not officially). It is artficial. We are not making TCs but mods yes?

Imoen and PC are friends, very good friends and siblings *dot*. Why we should always romance with every NPC out there? This is incest in my opinion.

Consider even if your father was different would u romance with your sister (daughter of your mother)?

Does really make a difference (Bhaal being ex-God I mean)? I think this is also not moral.

[Quitch]

As I have said, I intend to write Imoen, not impose glass ceilings on the player.

[Kish]

But back onto the potential, even Sarevok sees that Imoen is pining for the PC (if male, haven't gone too far with a female character) when he takes in Imoen's soul (it would've been interesting if Sarevok took in a piece of yours and spoke of the PC's longing for Imoen, but whatever), so the spark is definitely there.

Sarevok doesn't say that.

The closest he comes is, "How about the loneliness... the unrequited longing you --"

It takes a lot of interpretation, a lot of will, to convert that into "Imoen is pining for the PC." It is not dependent on gender or, indeed, on anything else about the PC except, obviously, the PC having made Imoen give Sarevok a piece of her soul rather than doing it himself or herself, so that the conversation can happen in the first place.

As I have said, I intend to write Imoen, not impose glass ceilings on the player.

So the question is, would Imoen consider a relationship with her Bhaalspawn half-sibling moral? I think she would reject such a relationship out of hand if she was in anything close to her normal state of mind, but that comes down to a matter of pure opinion as she never explicitly says what she would think of the possibility of a romantic/sexual relationship with her brother or sister. The idea that Imoen sees CHARNAME as a sibling, otoh, is something that can be supported, if need be. If you, Quitch, would like me to compile a list of all the times the game, Sarevok, and/or Imoen refer to the PC as a sibling, I'll be happy to do so.

[ak404]

Actually, I've decided to take the wisest course of all, which is to let Quitch do as Quitch does then bitch and whine about it later.

[kozand]

I didn't understand what u said Quitch.

But as a general statement not aiming u in particular I think we should not impose on players some not so popular life styles in form of mods. As long as majority won't like it and in this case, no, majority would not like it. I mean a les Imoen. But Imoen romance as a whole is already there and a good mod. No need for replicate it.

[kozand]

Yes Quitch has an independent mind and she trusts herself and this is her work. So why I am bothering her or myself anyway? When she knows what to do already?

Good luck Quitch!

Be well!

[SakuraNeko]

As I have said, I intend to write Imoen, not impose glass ceilings on the player.

And it needs to be mentioned once again that you absolutely rock for having an open mind

[souvuelle]

Since we're going without glass ceilings here, why don't we just give both options for both people. For instance if you say certain things, have her tell you that she is bi. If you say others, that she is simply straight. Just because she's an NPC in the game doesn't mean that she can't and won't lie to you over a sensitive subject, especially if it's very personal to her. That's not saying she's a bad friend to the PC, just that she doesn't want to talk about it with him/her. Perhaps she would make no comment at all if you asked her. She may even get insulted that you would ask something like that of her. If we're aiming to make her as much of a real person as possible who's to say she won't have her own opinions of right and wrong things to say.  

[ak404]

Meaningless comment: I really can't imagine Imoen being gay. I mean, this is after playing around with the Imoen Romance Mod.

Viconia, yes. Nalia, yes. Mazzy, maybe. Imoen, no.