528 replies to this topic

[BobTokyo]

Lesbians have been known to flirt with men..

I dunno where you live but where I live lesbians flirt with women, and bisexuals flirt with both genders.

So you've yet to meet a self identified lesbian who enjoys some playful flirting with males? My experience differs.

If you don't like it then.. well... go cry to your mommy and daddy. I'm sick and tired of you attacking people who are of the OPINION that Imoen's heterosexual. You'd better grow up, before you REALLY tick someone off.

Are you threatening someone over the Internet while posting anonymously? How brave of you.

[Quitch]

I intend to write Imoen in a way that I feel suits her character, and the purpose of this thread is to see the views of others in a way that may shape my thoughts on her. I do not intend to go down a path I would not be comfortable with writing her a certain way simply because some people will refuse to download it because they disagreee. They're more than welcome to, but it's there choice between Imoen the silent or Imoen the sister.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

Um, what is sweeping about "dependent on medium and context", "tend to pick," and "has been pretty consistent in most online discussion spaces"?  It's been true so far in the three published studies on internet discussion spaces I've worked on to date.  These findings have been confirmed independently for both asynchronous bulletin boards and chat, to the point where there are computer programs that can detect gender within a genre with an 80% accuracy rate:  ( http://www.bookblog....nder/genie.html ).  You talk about science, well, the fact that the majority of people online openly reveal their geneder is about as good as an established fact as you can get in the world of human behavior. 

Submitted: Five random pieces of fiction written by me.

Algorithim predicted Author is...

Male four times.

Female once.

Actual author gender: Female.

Err... and you say this is supposed to be 80% accurate? It was wrong 80% of the time. I know only five pieces isn't terribly much, but according to that I'm male!! Well maybe it's because I identify as lesbian.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

Warning! This message contains spoilers for the novels based on the BG saga, read at your own peril, and make sure you have a bucket handy!

This is a really really interesting question that has no right answer.

It's pointless to yell at each other about it to be honest. There just isn't a right answer. Civil discussion is the way to go on this, and at least acknowledge that there isn't a "ONE TRUE ANSWER" to the question.

Everyone forgets that Abeir-Toril simply isn't Earth, and Earth's social mores do not apply in any way shape or form.

Having said that, the BG saga was written by a team of developers who are mostly male and only had the canon source material to work with. Attitudes and such towards homosexuality are not mentioned in any of the books I have on the Realms (and I'm up to date with 3rd Edition Realms sources, having just bought Underdark the other week)... However, there is at least one mention of a homosexual couple (Yanseldara and her consort Vaerana Hawklyn, the former who rules the city of Elversult, the latter who pretty much runs the Watch of Elversult) in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. When directly confronted about the use of the word consort Sean Reynolds (one of the four authors of the book) was evasive, and like Peter Thomas of Bioware on Juhani in KotOR, refused to address it directly. He basically said "read it as you will"... There is a very clear difference between consort and cohort, and a very clear definition of the word consort - and yet he wouldn't say yes or no.

The novels of the BG saga are exceptions to the usual from TSR/WotC and Hasbro... and I suspect the only reason it got past people was because it was a time of transition for TSR, moving first to WotC then WotC being bought by Hasbro... Phil Athans, who wrote the first two novels is both an author and editor for WotC... The last novel is by Drew Karpyshyn, who is an employee of Bioware. The first book in the series has the TSR Silver Anniversary logo on it, the last has WotC's logo.

Anyway, HERE is what Ed Greenwood says about the world he invented. You'll have to scroll down the message a little - it's in the section that addresses me directly. I'll quote it below incase you're too lazy to look. (Yes I did notice it had been quoted in this thread before, but I suspect people ignored it. )

Alexandra (or Zandilar; which do you prefer?), yes,
the "original" Realms had many lesbian, gay male,
inter-race, and multiple-partner unions (as a matter
of calm, everyday norm), but these were simply omitted
from the printed version because of TSR's standards
(which even forced the change of the word "brothel" on
my maps to be changed to "festhall"). And no, to
everyone, I'm not a lust-fixated man, I was merely
taking the National Geographic approach: "I'm merely
reporting what the natives are, and do..."

In conclusion... The canon Imoen is both a lesbian and a very very dead young woman, slain by the drowish assassin Sedai while in Belthazar's care - her immortal soul carelessly quashed and totally obspellholdstudios.netlitterated beyond the help of any deity. *grinds teeth* Jaheira too is very very dead and beyond the help of any deity *grinds teeth again*, and Minsc is just a madman with a rat. Why is this canon? Because Realms novels are canon. Specifically because it changed nothing about the Realms, there isn't any reason to believe the novels aren't canon... (Please note, the canonality of the novels is something I vehemently disagree with!)

[kirkjobsluder]

Heya,

Submitted: Five random pieces of fiction written by me.

Algorithim predicted Author is...

Male four times.

Female once.

Actual author gender: Female.

Err... and you say this is supposed to be 80% accurate? It was wrong 80% of the time. I know only five pieces isn't terribly much, but according to that I'm male!! Well maybe it's because I identify as lesbian.

Which points out how while you can go from a bunch of indivdiual case examples to a generality, you can't go from a generality to an individual case example very well ;-).

Does 80% accuracy mean that it will work for everyone? No. But it does mean that over hundreds of cases with hundreds of people, gender can be identified to a fairly high degree of accuracy.

[Quitch]

It's interesting to note that in the film Troy, Archilles, who in the book Illiad has a boyfriend, has a girlfriend. It is hardly surprising that a game which probably relies heavily on American sales has failed to mention homosexuality in a big way when this would of course lead to the bible belt (covering of 40% of America last I recall) steering a wide course around the product.

Don't get your worlds confused. The fact that the largest buyer of this type of product also happens to have a fairly large, and in some cases verging on zealot, christian community, would have quite some influence on anything produced in the gaming arena. If it's enough to scare a major hollywood film company, then what chance does a small developer stand?

[Zandilar]

Heya,

Which points out how while you can go from a bunch of indivdiual case examples to a generality, you can't go from a generality to an individual case example very well ;-).

Does 80% accuracy mean that it will work for everyone?  No.  But it does mean that over hundreds of cases with hundreds of people, gender can be identified to a fairly high degree of accuracy.

Even so, if you look at the figures presented on the site itself, it's closer to 60% accurate than 80%.

What it comes down to is that you cannot apply mathematics to something that isn't mathematical.

There are a number of things that contribute to how a person writes... Their nationality, their social class, their level of education, weather or not English is a second language for the writer, how old they are, what mood they were in, whose point of view they were writing from... and I really could go on. It's a very long list. Gender is probably about last on the list of contributing factors. IMHO there is no way an algorithim is going to be able to take all of that into concideration. Sure, this one takes "genre" into account - that being fiction, non-fiction, blog entry. There is a difference between formal and informal language, so it's good they look at that... but there are just so many other factors... They should, at the very least, be asking country of origin and level of education!!

Call me skeptical, but there you go.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

It's interesting to note that in the film Troy, Archilles, who in the book Illiad has a boyfriend, has a girlfriend.  It is hardly surprising that a game which probably relies heavily on American sales has failed to mention homosexuality in a big way when this would of course lead to the bible belt (covering of 40% of America last I recall) steering a wide course around the product.

Don't get your worlds confused.  The fact that the largest buyer of this type of product also happens to have a fairly large, and in some cases verging on zealot, christian community, would have quite some influence on anything produced in the gaming arena.  If it's enough to scare a major hollywood film company, then what chance does a small developer stand?

I also understand they managed to keep actual deific participation to a bare minimum. (Haven't seen Troy yet, but I'm planning to go see it this week sometime.)

But yes, marketing is definitely something that big businesses have to keep in mind when publishing something. Which is why we don't get blatant mentioned of homosexuality in computer games, role playing source materials, and (generally) novels associated with them.

Hasbro is a big company, and they have specific policies against presenting homosexuality or anything that might be regarded as adult in nature... Though there are exceptions (ie: The Book of Vile Darkness and The Book of Exalted Deeds both of which deal with adult concepts, but both have labels on them clearly warning of such content - besides which book publication is slightly different to game publication since there is no rating system for books)...

The BG saga however, is a little bit harder to pin down. The licensing company was basically in a state of flux during the development. (TSR => WotC => Hasbro)... Policies weren't as pinned down as they are now (no festhalls in Hordes of the Underdark for example. There was one but it was taken out at Hasbro's insistence - now I KNOW there are festhalls in Waterdeep!)...

However, having said that... In the world of fan fiction and game mods, anything goes. There is no pressure from Christian (and other) zealots not to put stuff in them that might not be acceptable to the so-called "moral majority".

[kirkjobsluder]

There are a number of things that contribute to how a person writes... Their nationality, their social class, their level of education, weather or not English is a second language for the writer, how old they are, what mood they were in, whose point of view they were writing from... and I really could go on. It's a very long list. Gender is probably about last on the list of contributing factors. IMHO there is no way an algorithim is going to be able to take all of that into concideration. Sure, this one takes "genre" into account - that being fiction, non-fiction, blog entry. There is a difference between formal and informal language, so it's good they look at that... but there are just so many other factors... They should, at the very least, be asking country of origin and level of education!!

Call me skeptical, but there you go.

Certainly, class and native language goes into the picture. But, within a language men and women tend (note the word tend) to use language differently. Texts created by men and women tend to have different frequencies in personal pronoun usage. In many internet discussions men tend to post more frequently (and make larger posts when they do post.) Men tend to use argumentative language at a higher frequency in text and women tend to use more politeness cues. Women tend to be more likely to use descriptions of personal affect. These results have been shown to be consistent and reliable tendencies in dozens of quantitative studies of how we use language. (Tannen is a good authority for spoken text, and Herring for CMC. I really don't want to get into a big lit review here though.)

Please note the key word tend. This is not an either/or, instead it is an overlapping set of bell curves. On average, there are differences in how men and women use language, and these can be fairly reliable indicators of who is male and who is female in online texts.

[Kish]

Have you ever suggested a "marriage of convenience" to Nalia while using a female PC?

No. What does she say?

"Imagine the scandal. Who would believe I would have relations with you, even if you were the appropriate sex? I mean, I am charitable, but really... err, no offense intended."

So exactly the same as her reaction if a male PC suggests a marriage of convenience, except for the phrase, "even if you were the appropriate sex."

Keep in mind that you are an "appropriate sex" to run the keep.

Yes, and that's odd, isn't it? Considering Nalia is apparently not able to run the keep herself.

[dorotea]

It's interesting to note that in the film Troy, Archilles, who in the book Illiad has a boyfriend, has a girlfriend.

In the book Illiad Archilles has both the boyfriend and the girlfriend, in fact the entire episode about captured priestess and the spat with Agamemnon was taken right from the 'book' , so I cannot see any adaptation to american tastes. In fact the movie that I saw yesterday was amazingly true to the source, including Patrokles and Archilles relationship with him. If you remember A. was raised as a girl - since his momma the goddess did not want him to get killed in the war, and when he discovered he was a boy he was rather empathic about it. He had female lovers and generally liked girls (but boys as well). Greeks as society never had this stigma about homo and bi sexuality, for all we know in Sparta bisexuality was a norm for young boy-soldiers who indulged themselves with their comrades until they grow up and decided to settle and have a family.

[Laufey]

Heya,

Um, what is sweeping about "dependent on medium and context", "tend to pick," and "has been pretty consistent in most online discussion spaces"?  It's been true so far in the three published studies on internet discussion spaces I've worked on to date.  These findings have been confirmed independently for both asynchronous bulletin boards and chat, to the point where there are computer programs that can detect gender within a genre with an 80% accuracy rate:  ( http://www.bookblog....nder/genie.html ).  You talk about science, well, the fact that the majority of people online openly reveal their geneder is about as good as an established fact as you can get in the world of human behavior. 

Submitted: Five random pieces of fiction written by me.

Algorithim predicted Author is...

Male four times.

Female once.

Actual author gender: Female.

Err... and you say this is supposed to be 80% accurate? It was wrong 80% of the time. I know only five pieces isn't terribly much, but according to that I'm male!! Well maybe it's because I identify as lesbian.

This was very interesting! I submitted five pieces of my own fiction, got the result:

3 female, 2 male. I think I can understand why they got rated as they did - at least one of the 'male' ones was a monologue written for a male protagonist, and the other was similar to some extent.

[jester]

Is this thread really about Imoen's sexuality?

[Laufey]

Is this thread really about Imoen's sexuality?

I suppose one can only argue an unprovable issue back and forth so many times. But you are correct, we have drifted off topic.

Now then...my considered opinion is that Imoen is...Pink.

[Imrahil]

"Imagine the scandal.  Who would believe I would have relations with you, even if you were the appropriate sex?  I mean, I am charitable, but really... err, no offense intended."

So exactly the same as her reaction if a male PC suggests a marriage of convenience, except for the phrase, "even if you were the appropriate sex."

Very well read! Good job...

Keep in mind that you are an "appropriate sex" to run the keep.

Yes, and that's odd, isn't it? Considering Nalia is apparently not able to run the keep herself.

Or not so odd, since the Roenalls wouldn't let that happen (the whole reason she needs the PC in the first place), nor would she offer the Keep to a PC Thief->Mage.

- Imrahil