528 replies to this topic

[SimDing0]

Surely the entire point of this thread is I am leaving it up to the reader.

I'd hope you have some opinion beyond what people tell you to write, else the mod's not going to be very good.

[kirkjobsluder]

Have you ever suggested a "marriage of convenience" to Nalia while using a female PC?

No. What does she say?

FWIW, it's no wonder most heterosexuals "signal their sexuality all the time" - if they don't, it's automatically suspicious to you.

Heh, now that's an unwarranted assumption.

I'm having trouble understanding how people just dont grok this. Family and romantic status is a huge part of who people are socially. When I get into a conversation with my grandfather for example, the first five minutes goes something like this:

"Hi, grandpa."
"Well, hi, how are you doing?"
"Ohh, blah blah blah."
"That's good, and how is Laura (my partner) doing?"
"Ohh blah blah blah. Say, how is Uncle Vern doing?"
"Ohh, blah blah blah...."

And so on....

It's not that straight people are paranoid about beeing seen as gay, but that their family life is such a big deal that it's hard for it to not come up in conversation.

[Imrahil]

Have you ever suggested a "marriage of convenience" to Nalia while using a female PC?

No. What does she say?

"Imagine the scandal. Who would believe I would have relations with you, even if you were the appropriate sex? I mean, I am charitable, but really... err, no offense intended."

Keep in mind that you are an "appropriate sex" to run the keep.

I'm having trouble understanding how people just dont grok this.  Family and romantic status is a huge part of who people are socially.  When I get into a conversation with my grandfather for example, the first five minutes goes something like this:

I think it's because you keep narrowing the field. The "probability argument" was used for people in general, then you gave examples appropriate to acquaintances/coworkers, then travelling companions (the NPC's), now family. I do agree that if a family member is ambiguous or always plays the pronoun game, most people would start to wonder why. Someone they've only known for a month or so, though, probably not. Imoen is closer to family, "except for the torture & all".

- Imrahil

[kirkjobsluder]

I think it's because you keep narrowing the field. The "probability argument" was used for people in general, then you gave examples appropriate to acquaintances/coworkers, then travelling companions (the NPC's), now family. I do agree that if a family member is ambiguous or always plays the pronoun game, most people would start to wonder why. Someone they've only known for a month or so, though, probably not. Imoen is closer to family, "except for the torture & all".

- Imrahil

Which just to bring up another example. I just went to a presentation where a guest lecturer referred to two of his children in the first 15 minutes of his presentation. Then an audience member referred to her son during the question period.

[Quitch]

On the other hand, don't you think that in order to write a character well, that the writer should know what they are writing about? The problem is less that these men fantasize, but that storytelling about lesbian and bisexual women is based on offensive stereotypes rather than how women in MOTSS relationships relate to each other.

You're typing people by sexuality, I'm thinking along the lines of love. I suspect everyone here has experienced that and I think everyone is qualified to write about it. Nor do I believe it differs by sexuality, the experience differs from person to person and each interpretation is equally valid since it extends no further than the character being written about. To assume that someone thinks all homosexuals are X, Y and Z simply because they wrote a single person like that is ridiculous. If someone writes a hetrosexual BDSM character, I somewhat doubt that anyone, including yourself, would assume they believe all hetrosexuals are bondage loving people.

You are putting homosexuals into a fear/hatred niche, all the while not even seemingly aware of what you're doing to them. The second you stop worrying about them as a "people", the second you have taken a step away from isolating them.

I did not say that, and I wouldn't say that. Do I think that lesbigays are marginalized? Well heck yeah! There has been 13+ pages of people arguing that if ther is no explicit reference to sexual orientation that the character must be heterosexual. We have a president and congress wanting to pass a constitutional amendment denying recognition of same-sex relationships. We have several Chistian churches on the edge of congregational scism over the issue. I don't think that one can argue that lesbigays are not marginalized.

Firstly, I believe statistics support the point that someone of uncertain sexuality is more likely to be hetrosexual than not.

Secondly, you are, as I said, referring to a very local area: America. Christianity does not have the same pull in politics anywhere else in the world. America has a bible belt which has ensured that this religion carries quite a punch, but such issues are treated very differently elsewhere. I do not intend to take one country and its views, and treat it as the be all and end all of this fantasy world. Nor do I believe that the world's entire homosexual population lives in that one country, so I would not say that it alone cannot be used to define whether or not homosexuals are marginalised.

I don't think so. Can you provide an example of an environment where heterosexism does not exist?

The office I am sitting in right now, and I can expand from there if required, not that there's any point as you have no way of checking.

I'd hope you have some opinion beyond what people tell you to write, else the mod's not going to be very good

I will obviously be expanding on their ideas.

Which just to bring up another example. I just went to a presentation where a guest lecturer referred to two of his children in the first 15 minutes of his presentation. Then an audience member referred to her son during the question period.

Which is evidence of what exactly? If two white parents have a black child does this mean the child is simply "blacked up", or do you feel perhaps we might be living in a world where magical things like adoption, IVF treatment and surregate mothers exist?

Edited by Quitch, 12 May 2004 - 05:11 AM.

[kirkjobsluder]

You're typing people by sexuality, I'm thinking along the lines of love.  I suspect everyone here has experienced that and I think everyone is qualified to write about it.  Nor do I believe it differs by sexuality, the experience differs from person to person and each interpretation is equally valid since it extends no further than the character being written about.  To assume that someone thinks all homosexuals are X, Y and Z simply because they wrote a single person like that is ridiculous.  If someone writes a hetrosexual BDSM character, I somewhat doubt that anyone, including yourself, would assume they believe all hetrosexuals are bondage loving people.

Here you are dramatically misrepresenting my argument. Love is good but love does not exist in isolation from social context. Jaheira's romance involves quite a bit of plot about her relationships to Khalid and the Harpers. Aerie's romance involves quite a bit of plot about her experience of having been maimed and alienated from her home culture. Anomen's romance involves quite a bit of plot about his conflicted obligations to church and family, and then wanting to marry the PC. How the relationship develops is going to require looking at some of that social context.

For example, with the Dante discussions, a critical question as to roleplaying that character is whether there would be a conflict with Anomen and Keldorn regarding his sexuality. I find it entirely reasonable to propose that there would be some levels of conflict. Or with Forrest Fentan, the source materials about halfling culture and religion suggest that it places a very high value on the nuclear family and domestic life. How will this affect Forrest's interaction with his family? How will other NPCs react to Imoen's same-sex relationships? Will their reaction be the same or different depending on sexuality?

In regards to narrative about bisexual and lesbian women written by heterosexual men. Don't you think it is reasonable if members of a group object to stereotypes they find offensive? There is a good reason why "Little Black Sambo," "Mammy" and "Jim Crow" are not used to sell everything from cars to shampoo. African Americans argued that such portrayals were grotesquely distorted images of who they really were.

You are putting homosexuals into a fear/hatred niche, all the while not even seemingly aware of what you're doing to them.  The second you stop worrying about them as a "people", the second you have taken a step away from isolating them.

It's actually the exact opposite. The first step is not pretending that prejudice does not exist, it's acknowledging that it does. It's this systematic prejudice that defines lesbigays as a "people." If you are writing for and about lesbigays, you really should take the time to crack open one of the many books about how we live.

Secondly, you are, as I said, referring to a very local area: America.  Christianity does not have the same pull in politics anywhere else in the world.  America has a bible belt which has ensured that this religion carries quite a punch, but such issues are treated very differently elsewhere.  I do not intend to take one country and its views, and treat it as the be all and end all of this fantasy world.  Nor do I believe that the world's entire homosexual population lives in that one country, so I would not say that it alone cannot be used to define whether or not homosexuals are marginalised.

True, on the other hand, I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence that anti-gay prejudice does exist in other countries in various forms. This raises the issue of why should the FR be treated as homogenous in regards homosexuality? We know that the Northlands and Amn have very different attitudes in regards to half-orcs. My vision of it is that there would actually be a wide variation of cultural attitudes and expression ranging from complete acceptance to active persecution.

I'm wondering if there is a fundamental difference of opinion here. I perceive the subject of sexuality in the realms as a complex, dynamic, and wonderful opportunity for storytelling. That opportunity is lost if we insist that the differences in experience between lesbigays and straights is to treated as zero. The religions might have different things to say depending on their ethos. There might be differences in social class, and differences among the races.

The office I am sitting in right now, and I can expand from there if required, not that there's any point as you have no way of checking.

What happens after you leave the office? Can lesbigays get married where you live? Can gay clergy preach in the churches where you live? Are there separate bars, clubs or groups that cater to lesbigays where you live?

[kirkjobsluder]

What happens after you leave the office?  Can lesbigays get married where you live?  Can gay clergy preach in the churches where you live?  Are there separate bars, clubs or groups that cater to lesbigays where you live?

So do gay men tend to use "gay and lesbian" while lesbians tend to use "lesbigay" these days?

The power politics of language are always of interest.

I tend to switch off between the two depending on mood

[Quitch]

Quitch: the games version of the FR can hardly be viewed sexuality-neutral (as they are protrayed as gender-neutral) when there is no homosexual representation.

You're drawing conclusions the data doesn't provide. As I said, I've never knowing met one, yet does that mean they don't exist on planet earth? Don't be daft. Failure to meet someone and know they are homosexual isn't proof of squat, especially considering the minor element that sex is within the context of BG2

Most people online don't declare their gender, and the assumption is almost always male. Going by this method we could conclude that only 5% of the online forum community consists of women. Do you think that's correct?

Are they even mentioned in canon material? I think this debate, thus far, has proven that when/where something is not explicitly stated, the ideals of "our world" win out; or, at the very least, it's the default basis for arguement.

Proof? There's a word that has been abused in the last couple of pages.

What are you defining as trials and tribulations? IMO, the only homosexual that would not experience trials and tribulations (based on their sexuality) would only exist in the FR.

Yes, but what is that opinon founded on?

We also have a president who believes he is the right (..or is it the left) hand of God 
How different is "very different"? Would a gay couple be able to walk down any given street, on any given day and not draw stares or sneers? Do hate crimes exist there?

There are certain streets in America that a white male can't walk down, yet is that indicative of the wider picture? No.

Anecdotes mean nothing.

Edited by Quitch, 13 May 2004 - 02:58 AM.

[kirkjobsluder]

...isn't proof of squat,...

There you go around throwing the word "proof." Also, no one is doubting that lesbigay characters exist in the FR. However, I find it curious that the creators of BG2 spent so much time on gender and ethnic diversity in creating a cast of over 100 characters without a single identifiable lesbigay character.

But your argument is inconsistent. You say it is reasonable to interpret that gay characters exist in the fictional BG2 world in the absence of evidence. But you say is unreasonable to interpret that conflict about sexuality exists in the fictional BG2 world in the absence of evidence.

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that absence of evidence is supportive of the existence of gay people, and then turn around and claim that the absence of evidence is not supportive of the absence of conflict around gay people.

Most people online don't declare their gender, and the assumption is almost always male.

Strongly dependent on medium and context, and a doubtful statement to start with. There is in fact quite a bit of research out there which shows not only do people tend to pick gender-appropriate usernames and avatars, but that men and women engage in different writing styles which allows us to infer correct gender more often than not. In the study I'm working on, only 10% of participants don't choose gender appropriate avatars. This has been pretty consistent in most online discussion spaces.

Yes, but what is that opinon founded on?

Well, to start with, my opinion is founded on about 12 years of experience living as an out bisexual man. Before you start again with anecdotes don't mean squat. Most of the ethnographic research out there is built on less observation time. Add to that the shared experience from talking to hundreds of lesbigays, dozens of books, a few score scholarly articles, more than a few attempts to piece together a history of sexual orientation accross time periods and cultures, and hundreds of newspaper articles over the last 10 years and a pretty strong pattern emerges.

Edited by kirkjobsluder, 13 May 2004 - 04:27 AM.

[Jinnai]

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that absence of evidence is supportive of the existence of gay people, and then turn around and claim that the absence of evidence is not supportive of the absence of conflict around gay people.

I don't think that's what's been said. I think its the absence of evidence is not supportive or unsupportive of the absence of conflict around gay people. It's just that we do not have enough evidence to base anything on, one way or the other.

Most people online don't declare their gender, and the assumption is almost always male.

Strongly dependent on medium and context, and a doubtful statement to start with. There is in fact quite a bit of research out there which shows not only do people tend to pick gender-appropriate usernames and avatars, but that men and women engage in different writing styles which allows us to infer correct gender more often than not. In the study I'm working on, only 10% of participants don't choose gender appropriate avatars. This has been pretty consistent in most online discussion spaces.

That's a sweeping statement considering I myself use both gender avatars for my icons, depending upon how i'm fealing.

Yes, but what is that opinon founded on?

Well, to start with, my opinion is founded on about 12 years of experience living as an out bisexual man. Before you start again with anecdotes don't mean squat. Most of the ethnographic research out there is built on less observation time.

Time is an important factor, but annedotes are not scientific.

[kirkjobsluder]

I don't think that's what's been said. I think its the absence of evidence is not supportive or unsupportive of the absence of conflict around gay people. It's just that we do not have enough evidence to base anything on, one way or the other.

There is an entire dynamic of supressing something by refusing to talk about it. Thus when Oscar Wilde coined the term "The love that dare not speak its name," it was specifically a commentary on the fact that homosexual love always existed, but was one of those things that one never referred to in polite company.

But there is another class of evidence which is what interpretations are more plausible, and believable. Which is more beliveable? That the FR like many historical multi-cultural settings, is likely to have a range of attitudes. Or that in this diverse range of cultures, religions and ethnicities that groups that can't even live in the same city together somehow manage to all agree on a common ethos regarding sexuality?

A second criterion is which assumption offers the better opportunities for engaging in fun and interesting roleplay. Which is more interesting? That lesbigays might have their own subculture, liturature, and possibly conflicts that might be explored in this setting. Or that there is zero difference?

Strongly dependent on medium and context, and a doubtful statement to start with.  There is in fact quite a bit of research out there which shows not only do people tend to pick gender-appropriate usernames and avatars, but that men and women engage in different writing styles which allows us to infer correct gender more often than not.  In the study I'm working on, only 10% of participants don't choose gender appropriate avatars.  This has been pretty consistent in most online discussion spaces.

That's a sweeping statement considering I myself use both gender avatars for my icons, depending upon how i'm fealing.

Um, what is sweeping about "dependent on medium and context", "tend to pick," and "has been pretty consistent in most online discussion spaces"? It's been true so far in the three published studies on internet discussion spaces I've worked on to date. These findings have been confirmed independently for both asynchronous bulletin boards and chat, to the point where there are computer programs that can detect gender within a genre with an 80% accuracy rate: ( http://www.bookblog....nder/genie.html ). You talk about science, well, the fact that the majority of people online openly reveal their geneder is about as good as an established fact as you can get in the world of human behavior.

Not to mention, by your own standards, the claim that you use both gender of avatars is meaningless. You can't both claim that anecdotes are meaningless, and then use them yourself when it is convenient.

Time is an important factor, but annedotes are not scientific.

Well, to start with, a pattern of anecdotes systematically collected over time can in fact be scientific. It is called qualitative research and some of the most revolutionary works in a field are qualititative in methods rather than quantitative. Examples include Gallieo's Starry Messenger, Charles Darwin's Origin of the Species and Jane Goodall's ethnographic primatology.

But, this is a non-sequetor because what is at stake here is not a question of science, but of literary analysis and good narrative. The base claim made here is not scientific, it is that some interpretations are better and more authentic. Science has very little to say about Hamlet, but that does not stop us from saying that Hamlet is not about a happy, functional nuclear famly going on a picnic. This interpretation of Hamet conflicts with my personal and vicarous experiences of family life, and with a massive canon of knowledge about how families behave towards each other.

Likewise, the claim that there would be no differences between a heterosexual and homosexual romance conflicts with my personal and vicarous experiences of those relationships, and with a large canon of autobiographical and literary works describing gay relationships. The claim that all of the FRs would be unquestioningly supportive of MOTSS relationships, conflicts with my personal and vicarous experiences of heterosexsm, and with a large canon of historical and ethnographic works that describe how attitudes about homosexuality in most cultures are quite complex.

Of course Quitch is obliged to come up with his own interpretation. But I'm not obligated to find it to be a good one.

Edited by kirkjobsluder, 13 May 2004 - 02:36 PM.

[Jinnai]

Not to mention, by your own standards, the claim that you use both gender of avatars is meaningless. You can't both claim that anecdotes are meaningless, and then use them yourself when it is convenient.

I'm curious how these hold up with subset populations...i know FE IRL a lot of guys who are into anime who use female avatars and vise versa for females. Not to say its 100% as i know some IRL who don't.

Edited by Jinnai, 13 May 2004 - 08:10 PM.