528 replies to this topic

[Longinus]

I've had friends, straight and gay, male and female, who refused to believe that anyone wouldn't switch orientation if approached by the "right" man/woman. Folks are kinda funny, especially in matters relating to sex.

I know straight people who couldn't change their sexuality no matter how hard they tried (including myself). You make it sound as if we're all bisexuals waiting to happen. I really couldn't disagree more.

Edited by Longinus, 10 May 2004 - 12:30 AM.

[kirkjobsluder]

All the evidence for either way is mimimal and ambigious, largely open to interpretation. Thus heterosexuality would win by default.

That is what I think to be a completely arse-backwards way of thinking about it. The ambiguities in these stories are the open doors to great storytelling. The default should be to tell a great story. If the great story involved happens to include homosexuality, then that is how the story should go. If you disagree, you are free to play armchair critic or write your own version of the story.

I don't want to get in an argument in this thread, but I haveto clear this misnomer up. The companys while they might be take legal action would have such a case thrown out of every court in the US as long as such a thing didn't generate money in any way, shape or form.

Acutally, not the case. Under copyright law, the act of unauthorized distribution of a copy or derivative work is an actionable offense even if no money exchanges hands. This has always been the case whether we are talking about warez, cover songs on the street, P2P filesharing or an instructor making photocopies for a class. The amount of money that changes hands is irrelevant for determining statutory damages (although it may be used in determining real damages.) I don't see many of the RIAA suits against music file sharers thrown out yet. My bread and butter depends on knowing the exact boundaries of fair use, and more importantly, the disputed territories between fair use and protection.

This is the basic point. Whoever owns the copyright to the characters in BG has every right to start sending out cease and desist orders. Game companies have taken a rather enlightened (or alternatively, mercenary) view that a happy fanbase is a fanbase that buys and recommends product.

Statistically speaking it isn't. I know Imoen isn't a statistic, but that does give some weight against a romance with Chole.

Swoosh, missing the point.

Straight people have nothing to hide in regards to their sexuality. Therefore, as a matter of habit, straight people are very open when it comes to past or present sexual relationships. Queer folk as a matter of habit (and necessity) tend to be quiet and let people reach their own assumptions. IME a person who is ambigous, evasive or very private about their sexuality is more likely to be lesbigay than heterosexual.

[kirkjobsluder]

I think you're assuming in a lot of those cases that they must be hetrosexual because they loved a woman. Wouldn't that make them equally likely to be bi-sexual? Is there anything that confirms it one way or the other for most of them? No.

Woah, nelly! Danger Will Robinson! Somehow, even when I'm working hard to phrase this discussion in terms of probability and justifiable ambuguity, somehow this is coming out as "must" or "confirmation."

Just to pick one example, it may certainly be possible that Jaheira is bisexual. However, there is so much text in the cannon which which leans toward a heterosexual reading that writing a MOTSS plot for her would be a tough sell for me. With Cernd, it is a bit easier to create a subtext in which his abandonment of his wife was as much personal as religious. But still, there would appear to be quite a bit of explaining to do. I would have an extremely tough time accepting a narriative in which Keldorn or Anomen are bisexual.

Or let me put it another way. Heterosexual relationships are considered in many cultures (including the cultures from which the F.R. are derived) to be the basic vertebrae of society. As a result, we spend a lot of time talking about heterosexual courtship and marriage. What are the most important things to know about a person's status in society?
1: parentage
2: marriage
3: profession

Pretty much in roughly that order. Because such a big deal is made of heterosexual pair-bonding, the conspicuous absence of a known heterosexual pair-bond is suspicious.

And IME people who are private, evasive and ambiguous about their romantic lives are more likely to be lesbigay than not.

My point was, surely it would be better for a writer to choose a path they could write with enthusiasm. If they find bi chicks hot, good for them. I see nothing offensive in such a decision, it would probably make for better writing, so long as they stay to character and don't make it such a personal piece of work that no one else can get involved.

The problem is, that ethusiasm is most likely to take the form of masturbatory material that treats those characters in a shallow and stereotypical manner. There is a ton of "hot bi chick" lit out there, (and a small quantity of "hot bi dude" lit) and I've seen nothing that treats those characters as something more than a fetish to get hot over. Nothing that treats those characters as something more than a literary blow-up doll. The realities have very little to do with the pornographic fantasies that get promoted.

As for writing a homosexual character, that would depend on how different you believe romances between homosexuals to be from those of hetrosexuals. I suspect the difference is, for all important intents and purposes, zero.

Woah, talk about naive. I would love to live in a world where those differences are zero but we don't live in that world. Neither does Imoen. We live in a world where heterosexual relationships are overhyped and homosexual relationships struggle for recognition. Both our world and the FR are worlds where gender does matter.

To start with, how the heck do you go about finding a compatible MOTSS? If you are interested in someone, how do you break the subject of that interest in a way that minimizes risk? There is the whole thing of falling in love with someone of the wrong sexual orientation. What about family and societal expectations to get married and have children? How do you deal with the lack of same-sex courtship and marriage rituals? The lack of stories about same-sex partnerships. Bisexual people in relationships have to deal with a unique type of insecurity from heterosexual and homosexual partners. Then there are the issues that men and women are socialized differently, use language differently, and express intimacy differently. Oh, if there was no differences, my life story would be much more simple (and a lot more fun.)

Sola really bugs me for this. He goes from a culture based on a femdom sado-masochistic sexuality (I'm not even going into the problems there) and he doesn't carry any baggage with him? That's just bad writing. I just can't imagine that there wouldn't be a difference in his relationships. I suspect that issues of autonomy would be a really big deal in his heterosexual relationships. ("What! You really won't cut my living heart out if I express an honest opinion?") And I think that his homosexual relationships would require a bit of convincing that a lover is not necessarily a rival looking for an opportunity to move up in the ranks. There is a good story there.

I think that straight people can write good gay characters, but it requires doing a bit of homework.

[Quitch]

The problem is, that ethusiasm is most likely to take the form of masturbatory material that treats those characters in a shallow and stereotypical manner. There is a ton of "hot bi chick" lit out there, (and a small quantity of "hot bi dude" lit) and I've seen nothing that treats those characters as something more than a fetish to get hot over. Nothing that treats those characters as something more than a literary blow-up doll. The realities have very little to do with the pornographic fantasies that get promoted.

Any public material is presumably not writen for the writer alone, so in the above example it would mean that the writer failed in their task of making the story more interesting to people other than themselves. Perhaps someone really does see Imoen as a hot bi-chick just waiting to break out of her shell.

If you are interested in someone, how do you break the subject of that interest in a way that minimizes risk? There is the whole thing of falling in love with someone of the wrong sexual orientation. What about family and societal expectations to get married and have children? How do you deal with the lack of same-sex courtship and marriage rituals? The lack of stories about same-sex partnerships. Bisexual people in relationships have to deal with a unique type of insecurity from heterosexual and homosexual partners. Then there are the issues that men and women are socialized differently, use language differently, and express intimacy differently. Oh, if there was no differences, my life story would be much more simple (and a lot more fun.)

I don't recall anything within in the source material that implies that homosexuals are a feared and hated breed, nor stigmatised in any way.

Also, while many homosexuals do go through trials and tribulations, some don't. This is as silly as saying all hetro's wander the streets shouting "nice buns", there simply isn't a one size fits all character, and to suggest otherwise in my writing would be both stupid and irresponsible.

We live in a world where heterosexual relationships are overhyped and homosexual relationships struggle for recognition. Both our world and the FR are worlds where gender does matter.

I recall FR being rather gender neutral, except for the odd place like the Drow, or the more traditional peasant view.

[kirkjobsluder]

Perhaps someone really does see Imoen as a hot bi-chick just waiting to break out of her shell.

Which is something slightly different from what I was complaining about (making Imoen gratuitously bisexual to enhance her sex appeal.) But then again, I find the idea that someone might find bisexuality sexually appealing in a partner to be bizzare.

I don't recall anything within in the source material that implies that homosexuals are a feared and hated breed, nor stigmatised in any way.

I don't think that heterosexism necessarily demands fear or hatred, in much the same way that I don't think that most people who are sexist fear or hate women. Nor do I find that most racists fear or hate ethnic minorities. What makes sexism and racism work is that people of one class are held to be more valuable than people of other classes. The fact that the only reference to homosexuality in the source material involves prostitution strongly suggests to me that heterosexual relationships are more valued than homosexual relationships.

Some of the things that I mention don't have much to do with hatred or stigma to begin with. A minority can be not strongly stigmatized, and yet have its own sub-culture, rituals, stories and gatherings.

Furthermore, I think a valid literary interpretation of the FR is that they are a somewhat idealized mirror of historical Western culture. BG is progressive but it's not THAT progressive.

Also, while many homosexuals do go through trials and tribulations, some don't.  This is as silly as saying all hetro's wander the streets shouting "nice buns", there simply isn't a one size fits all character, and to suggest otherwise in my writing would be both stupid and irresponsible.

Swing and miss. For one thing, I'm not suggesting a "one size fits all character." For another thing, I have not met any gay or bisexual person who has not been affected by heterosexism in some form. How much does this have to come into the game, depends on the character and story. But to say that there are no differences between the experiences of lesbigays and the experiences of straights is stupid and irresponsible. Chloe IMO does it right. Not all NPCs are all that happy with her sexual orientation. The whole thing of feeling out the territory by talking about a lesbian poet is dead-on. Chloe's correcting the assumptions of other characters is done in a nice way.

I think that BG is progressive but isn't a gender-blind utopia by any means. Almost all of the prostitutes for example are female. Most of the random namelss thugs and cowled wizards are male. Many NPC sub-plots follow pretty traditional gendered plot-lines: Anomen, avenge murdered sister. Jan, ex-lover in abusive relationship. Keldorn, stay at home mother finds comfort in other man. Cernd, man chooses career over lover, not realizing that he left a child behind (heck, this one appeared on Without a Trace last week.) Nalia, intelligent young woman seeks to escape marriage of convenience. These could come right out of Victorian penny-dreadfuls. Aerie's connection of her self esteem to her body image probably would not translate to a male character expressing the same dialog.

Is this a bad thing? I think that if the FR were a progressive gender-blind utopia that we wouldn't recognize it and would have problems building empathy with the characters.

[Quitch]

All these phrases kicking off your points are making my skin crawl.

Which is something slightly different from what I was complaining about (making Imoen gratuitously bisexual to enhance her sex appeal.) But then again, I find the idea that someone might find bisexuality sexually appealing in a partner to be bizzare.

Yes, but then men fantasise about lesbians. They're strange creatures.

Furthermore, I think a valid literary interpretation of the FR is that they are a somewhat idealized mirror of historical Western culture. BG is progressive but it's not THAT progressive.

Of course it is, and that's obvious in the cliche. However, I see nothing in FR material to suggest the homosexuals=evil mentality exists in this world.

I have not met any gay or bisexual person who has not been affected by heterosexism in some form.

Yes, but the number you know, taking into account the area in which you'll have met them, compared against the number who are and the area they inhabit... you begin to see how little anecdotes mean.

I think that BG is progressive but isn't a gender-blind utopia by any means. Almost all of the prostitutes for example are female. Most of the random namelss thugs and cowled wizards are male. Many NPC sub-plots follow pretty traditional gendered plot-lines: Anomen, avenge murdered sister. Jan, ex-lover in abusive relationship. Keldorn, stay at home mother finds comfort in other man. Cernd, man chooses career over lover, not realizing that he left a child behind (heck, this one appeared on Without a Trace last week.) Nalia, intelligent young woman seeks to escape marriage of convenience. These could come right out of Victorian penny-dreadfuls. Aerie's connection of her self esteem to her body image probably would not translate to a male character expressing the same dialog.

Is this a bad thing? I think that if the FR were a progressive gender-blind utopia that we wouldn't recognize it and would have problems building empathy with the characters.

I don't think this has anything to do with FR and everything to do with an all male writing team... and probably an overdose of fantasy novels which tell stories of this slant.

[kirkjobsluder]

All these phrases kicking off your points are making my skin crawl.

How so?

Yes, but then men fantasise about lesbians.  They're strange creatures.

And pretty much all of the lesiban and bisexual women I've met find this to be offensive and strange. Most lesbian and bisexual women don't engage in MOTSS relatioships to create good fantasy material for straight men.

Of course it is, and that's obvious in the cliche. However, I see nothing in FR material to suggest the homosexuals=evil mentality exists in this world.

Which is a strong indication that homosexuality is marginalized, at least in regards to the BG cannon. If there was no stigma, you would expect to have at least one out gay character somewhere in the game. Instead, what we have is a single oblique reference that it might exist.

That is the whole point of "the love that dare not speak its name." Much of heterosexism works by creating a wall of silence around the topic.

Yes, but the number you know, taking into account the area in which you'll have met them, compared against the number who are and the area they inhabit... you begin to see how little anecdotes mean.

One of the nice things about living in a college community is getting to know people from a wide cross-section of life. So, in about 12 years I've served on speakers panels with gay, lesbian and bisexual people from rural small towns to major urban centers. I've even spoken with gay men from Arab countries where the rules regarding same-sex affection are completely different. I've read writing from gay men and lesbians in small towns and urban centers. And there definitely seems to be a general consensus that homosexual relationships face unique challenges compared to heterosexual relationships. Even people from supposedly gay utopias like New York and San Francisco comment that there are differences.

And I'll soften my claims somewhat. AFAIK, the experiences of most gay men and lesibans are that MOTSS relationships are different from MOTOS relationships. That does not make them any less valuable, important, or intimate, but it does mean that people who write about MOTSS relationships and MOTSS people in relationships should not assume that there are no differences.

I don't think this has anything to do with FR and everything to do with an all male writing team... and probably an overdose of fantasy novels which tell stories of this slant.

I suppose that this might come down to a fundamental difference of interpretation. I think that fantasy works best when it can be an alternative setting for stories that we can relate to. Myspellholdstudios.net opinion is that exploring how characters deal with heterosexism within the FR makes for better storytelling and roleplaying than assuming that the FR is some sort of utopia where these concerns dont matter. I can relate to Chloe and Dante (and of course, Forrest Fentan ). I don't think I could relate to a gay romance that was written as a heterosexual romance with just one of the partners swapped.

[Jinnai]

Acutally, not the case. Under copyright law, the act of unauthorized distribution of a copy or derivative work is an actionable offense even if no money exchanges hands. This has always been the case whether we are talking about warez, cover songs on the street, P2P filesharing or an instructor making photocopies for a class. The amount of money that changes hands is irrelevant for determining statutory damages (although it may be used in determining real damages.) I don't see many of the RIAA suits against music file sharers thrown out yet. My bread and butter depends on knowing the exact boundaries of fair use, and more importantly, the disputed territories between fair use and protection.

This is the basic point. Whoever owns the copyright to the characters in BG has every right to start sending out cease and desist orders. Game companies have taken a rather enlightened (or alternatively, mercenary) view that a happy fanbase is a fanbase that buys and recommends product.

Statistically speaking it isn't. I know Imoen isn't a statistic, but that does give some weight against a romance with Chole.

Yes, if you're making a copy or partial copy of it. I know this because we had a cease and disist order from another company when making a different fan-based game and after sending a reply after getting some legal help we never heard from them again.

Your right, if its to make a copy or a close copy of the original it doesn't matter, but a fanfic isn't even close so long as it isn't a recounting of the play player's story through BG/BG2.

Swoosh, missing the point. 

Straight people have nothing to hide in regards to their sexuality.  Therefore, as a matter of habit, straight people are very open when it comes to past or present sexual relationships.  Queer folk as a matter of habit (and necessity) tend to be quiet and let people reach their own assumptions.  IME a person who is ambigous, evasive or very private about their sexuality is more likely to be lesbigay than heterosexual.

Actually they may have something to hide if they prefer stuff like S&M so your theory only holds so much water.

[kirkjobsluder]

Yes, if you're making a copy or partial copy of it. I know this because we had a cease and disist order from another company when making a different fan-based game and after sending a reply after getting some legal help we never heard from them again.

Your right, if its to make a copy or a close copy of the original it doesn't matter, but a fanfic isn't even close so long as it isn't a recounting of the play player's story through BG/BG2.

Debatable. Copyright law prohibits the creation and distribution of derivative works. Thus, any fiction that uses characters in BG/BG2 can be legally liable. I suspect that there were other reasons why that company did not persue further action (such as it not being worth the cost of persuing statutory damages.)

Actually they may have something to hide if they prefer stuff like S&M so your theory only holds so much water.

My experiences with heterosexual S&Mers is that they have no reason to hide the fact that they are in a heterosexual relationship. They might just leave the collars and toys at home when in public.

[Jinnai]

Yes, if you're making a copy or partial copy of it. I know this because we had a cease and disist order from another company when making a different fan-based game and after sending a reply after getting some legal help we never heard from them again.

Your right, if its to make a copy or a close copy of the original it doesn't matter, but a fanfic isn't even close so long as it isn't a recounting of the play player's story through BG/BG2.

Debatable. Copyright law prohibits the creation and distribution of derivative works. Thus, any fiction that uses characters in BG/BG2 can be legally liable. I suspect that there were other reasons why that company did not persue further action (such as it not being worth the cost of persuing statutory damages.)

Well atleast in US under Acticle I: Section 107 gives exemption for whetther "the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes"

[kirkjobsluder]

Well atleast in US under Acticle I: Section 107 gives exemption for whetther "the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes"

However, nonprofit educational use is quite limited by the exsting case law. As an example, there is a huge flap over rights associated with course packets even though the copyshops are only charging the cost for photocopying and binding. Copyshops are so worried about this that when I had to copy galleys of my own book chapter for a conference, that they just set up the printer and let me roll off the copies. Nonprofit educational use is one of those legal no-mans lands. In addition, educational use has been pretty much defined as use within formal educational institutions.

In addition copyright law has become in many ways a contest of who has the biggest pocketbook.

The end result is that the owners of the BG copyright could actively work against the distribution of derivative works that they find unplesant of distasteful. They would be shooting themselves in the foot by doing so, but I don't see much in contemporary copyright law that would prevent this from happening.

[kirkjobsluder]

And it may suprise people to know, that I'm interested in this because I spent a fair ammount of time on my own expansion of Imoen as a character. That plot line would have involved a bender with possibly a heterosexual one-night stand to highlight how damaging the loss of her soul would be. So really, I don't have a horse in the race for her to be bisexual. About the only sexuality that I would exclude would be to propose that she's a sexual sadist.

[Imrahil]

One of the reasons I dislike the straight by default is that IME, the exact opposite has been the case.

IME heterosexual signal their sexuality all the time.  Spouces, significant others, kids, flashing the wedding band, the cuddle portrait on the desk, commenting on the cute MOTOS in eyesight, models, movie stars, characters, etc., etc..

I think this is a bit apples & oranges, though. You're now talking about a subset of the population who you interact with personally enough to believe you should be getting an actual feel one way or the other. By your reasoning, we could just as easily say "Balthazar, Mellisan, Ribald, & Sir Ryan Trawl are all probably gay since they never indicate otherwise." The majority of people give off no vibe one way or the other & yet are straight.

One of the reasons why I get a non-heterosexual vibe from Imoen is because she does not drop any gratuitous statements identfying her as heterosexual.

Then again, think about what she's been through - kidnapped, tortured, saw Khalid tortured to death, temporary escape, arrested, more torture, loses her soul, etc. I think this is a more plausible explanation as to why she might be a little tight-lipped than the idea that she's non-hetero & hiding it.

- Imrahil

[kirkjobsluder]

One of the reasons I dislike the straight by default is that IME, the exact opposite has been the case.

IME heterosexual signal their sexuality all the time.  Spouces, significant others, kids, flashing the wedding band, the cuddle portrait on the desk, commenting on the cute MOTOS in eyesight, models, movie stars, characters, etc., etc..

I think this is a bit apples & oranges, though. You're now talking about a subset of the population who you interact with personally enough to believe you should be getting an actual feel one way or the other. By your reasoning, we could just as easily say "Balthazar, Mellisan, Ribald, & Sir Ryan Trawl are all probably gay since they never indicate otherwise." The majority of people give off no vibe one way or the other & yet are straight.

Here you are talking apples and oranges. I'm not referring to Sir Ryan Trawl, but to the playable NPCs, people you spend hours of real time and months of game time living and working with. Sir Ryan Trawl's failure to signal his sexuality in the half dozen lines of dialogue given to him is not suspicious. Nalia's failure to signal her sexuality in a few hundred lines of dialogue is suspicious.

One of the reasons why I get a non-heterosexual vibe from Imoen is because she does not drop any gratuitous statements identfying her as heterosexual.

Then again, think about what she's been through - kidnapped, tortured, saw Khalid tortured to death, temporary escape, arrested, more torture, loses her soul, etc. I think this is a more plausible explanation as to why she might be a little tight-lipped than the idea that she's non-hetero & hiding it.

- Imrahil

Good point, but why is it that she "must be" heterosexual? Why not leave it up to the reader, or to future authors to come to their own conclusions?

[Quitch]

And pretty much all of the lesiban and bisexual women I've met find this to be offensive

I hope that's a joke, because that's pretty pathetic. In my experience men fantasise about everything under the sun, and I'm not going to start ranting because at some point I may have featured in one. I suggest that these women get over themselves.

Which is a strong indication that homosexuality is marginalized

No, it's an indication of many, many things. Simply presenting this conclusion does not make it true from the infinite number of other possibilities.

I suppose that this might come down to a fundamental difference of interpretation. I think that fantasy works best when it can be an alternative setting for stories that we can relate to. My opinion is that exploring how characters deal with heterosexism within the FR makes for better storytelling and roleplaying than assuming that the FR is some sort of utopia where these concerns dont matter.

Yes, but you're relating to homosexual issues in a way in which they're always marginalised, terrified to reveal who they are. That's a pretty one-sided take on the issue, and possibly entirely local.

Why not leave it up to the reader, or to future authors to come to their own conclusions?

I'm sure there are many reasons for both paths. Questions are not answers.

[Imrahil]

Here you are talking apples and oranges.  I'm not referring to Sir Ryan Trawl, but to the playable NPCs, people you spend hours of real time and months of game time living and working with.  Sir Ryan Trawl's failure to signal his sexuality in the half dozen lines of dialogue given to him is not suspicious.

I was under the impression that you were objecting to the "straight as default" mindset being applied to the general population (the apples) & using the characteristics of a small subset of people (the oranges) to show why. If that's not the case, then I misunderstood.

Nalia's failure to signal her sexuality in a few hundred lines of dialogue is suspicious.

Have you ever suggested a "marriage of convenience" to Nalia while using a female PC?

FWIW, it's no wonder most heterosexuals "signal their sexuality all the time" - if they don't, it's automatically suspicious to you.

Good point, but why is it that she "must be" heterosexual?

I don't think you'll find a place where I used the words "must be".

Why not leave it up to the reader, or to future authors to come to their own conclusions?

In general, I do, but on a thread about Imoen's sexuality, that would be kind of pointless.

- Imrahil

[SimDing0]

In general, I do, but on a thread about Imoen's sexuality, that would be kind of pointless.

Oh? I'd say the outcome of the thread is that either view is sustainable ingame, depending on author preference.

[Quitch]

Surely the entire point of this thread is I am leaving it up to the reader.

[kirkjobsluder]

I hope that's a joke, because that's pretty pathetic.  In my experience men fantasise about everything under the sun, and I'm not going to start ranting because at some point I may have featured in one.  I suggest that these women get over themselves.

Woah, going off the deep end here. Who said anything about ranting? The pornographic view that many straight men have about female MOTSS relationships is frequently too pathetic to complain about. It's easier to just change the channel.

On the other hand, don't you think that in order to write a character well, that the writer should know what they are writing about? The problem is less that these men fantasize, but that storytelling about lesbian and bisexual women is based on offensive stereotypes rather than how women in MOTSS relationships relate to each other.

No, it's an indication of many, many things.  Simply presenting this conclusion does not make it true from the infinite number of other possibilities.

Here you go with an absolute again. I'm not presenting any interpretation as "true." I'm providing the reasons why I find the utopian interpretation of the realms to be both unrealistic and not very compelling. I think that arguing for the "one true interpretation" is a loosing proposition to start with.

My personal opinion is that the possibility that real conflicts exist around sexual orientation in the game world is a better interpretation than the utopia for a couple of major reasons:
1: It makes for a richer story.
2: It acknowledges that real differences exist between MOTSS and MOTOS romantic relationships.
3: It is an interpretation that I can relate to better on a personal level.

You can certainly write the BG world as a utopia. But I'm under no obligation to consider that a good interpretation.

Yes, but you're relating to homosexual issues in a way in which they're always marginalised, terrified to reveal who they are. 

I did not say that, and I wouldn't say that. Do I think that lesbigays are marginalized? Well heck yeah! There has been 13+ pages of people arguing that if ther is no explicit reference to sexual orientation that the character must be heterosexual. We have a president and congress wanting to pass a constitutional amendment denying recognition of same-sex relationships. We have several Chistian churches on the edge of congregational scism over the issue. I don't think that one can argue that lesbigays are not marginalized.

Terrified? That's a bad interpretation of what I've said. My argument is that you can be out, loud, and brash in a supportive environment and still have to deal with pervasive heterosexism. What I've said is that lesbigay people are frequently more reluctant to talk about their sexuality because of the risks of prejudice. That does not equate to "terror" and I'm finding your hyperbole to be frustrating.

That's a pretty one-sided take on the issue, and possibly entirely local.

I don't think so. Can you provide an example of an environment where heterosexism does not exist?