528 replies to this topic

[Imrahil]

I think that using the word "evidence" is pushing it.

OK, I'll bite... how is that pushing it? Would you assume Jan was obsessed with turnips if he never mentioned the word turnip in any of his dialogues?

- Imrahil

I think you'll find that your analogy is flawed in many ways.

How so?

- Imrahil

[kirkjobsluder]

Ok, this is possibly offensive but it gets the point accross.

One of the reasons I dislike the straight by default is that IME, the exact opposite has been the case.

IME heterosexual signal their sexuality all the time. Spouces, significant others, kids, flashing the wedding band, the cuddle portrait on the desk, commenting on the cute MOTOS in eyesight, models, movie stars, characters, etc., etc..

In contrast, lesbigays tend to be more private unless they are engaged in direct activism. They rely on privacy, evasion and ambiguity and let people make their own assumptions.

So to be honest, my gut feeling is that a person who is ambiguous is more likely to be lesbigay than heterosexual. Playing the pronoun game clenches it for me. One of the reasons why I get a non-heterosexual vibe from Imoen is because she does not drop any gratuitous statements identfying her as heterosexual.

[kirkjobsluder]

So to be honest, my gut feeling is that a person who is ambiguous is more likely to be lesbigay than heterosexual.  Playing the pronoun game clenches it for me.  One of the reasons why I get a non-heterosexual vibe from Imoen is because she does not drop any gratuitous statements identfying her as heterosexual.

Neither does Minsc.

With Minsc though, there is all that history from BGI where he's so puppy-dog infatuated with Dynaheir that carries into BGII for me. (And come on, Misnc's infatuation for Dynaheir is at least as explicit as Khalid/Jaheira.)

[Quitch]

In the course of my life, I have never talked to anyone who I *knew* was homosexual, yet there are people in the world who are homosexual, I jut haven't knowingly talked to any yet.

How many people in-game do you get in a situation where you'd ever find out their sexuality? Not many.

[kirkjobsluder]

In the course of my life, I have never talked to anyone who I *knew* was homosexual, yet there are people in the world who are homosexual, I jut haven't knowingly talked to any yet.

How many people in-game do you get in a situation where you'd ever find out their sexuality? Not many.

More than half of the NPCs by my count. Keldorn, Cernd, Jan, Edwin, and Mazzy drop pretty conspicuous references. Of course there is the romance plots with Aerie, Jaheira, Viconia and Anomen. Valygar even says he is celibate by choice not wanting to carry on the family line (and is given a romance in the epilogue.) Sarevok has his own romance plotline from BGI. Nalia, Yoshimo and Imoen are the only ones I can think that are ambiguous.

[Longinus]

Not unless you're romancing them.. even then, there's nothing to say that they're not bisexual or that it's not fluid.

Of course, there's the strong possibility that they are in fact straight like most people in existence.

Imoen's sexuality is debatable, as this interminable topic has shown, but I really have no desire to romance her anyway. If Quitch wrote her to be bisexual then everyone would be happy, right? That's the inane route Lord Mirrabo decided to take, so why not do the same just to be a champion of political correctness?

Perhaps one day games developers will stamp their characters' foreheads with whatever sexuality they had in mind for them, so as to prevent modders from rewriting those characters into something they were never meant to be (Solaufein anyone?). Why if a character's sexuality is not made absolutely crystal clear must people assume they are bisexual?

Edited by Longinus, 09 May 2004 - 10:50 AM.

[SimDing0]

Perhaps one day games developers will stamp their characters' foreheads with whatever sexuality they had in mind for them, so as to prevent modders from rewriting those characters into something they were never meant to be (Solaufein anyone?). Why if a character's sexuality is not made absolutely crystal clear must people assume they are bisexual?

If there's ambiguity, the mod-maker has to fill in details. Now, this is where it comes down to author skill; if a believable character can be written, what's the problem? It comes down to whichever the mod-maker can portray as a more fulfilling character. This applies whether or not you're obsessive about preserving original characterisation, which I'm incidentally not.

Edited by SimDing0, 09 May 2004 - 01:31 PM.

[Jinnai]

Imoen's sexuality is debatable, as this interminable topic has shown, but I really have no desire to romance her anyway. If Quitch wrote her to be bisexual then everyone would be happy, right? That's the inane route Lord Mirrabo decided to take, so why not do the same just to be a champion of political correctness?

Well i don't think it should be about political correctness, if Quitch wants to make Imoen bi, make her bi because of that, not because it'll please the most people.

[kirkjobsluder]

Imoen's sexuality is debatable, as this interminable topic has shown, but I really have no desire to romance her anyway. If Quitch wrote her to be bisexual then everyone would be happy, right?

Somehow I think that the people who argue that a character must be written as heterosexual unless there is screaming evidence otherwise would not be happy.

That's the inane route Lord Mirrabo decided to take, so why not do the same just to be a champion of political correctness?

Interesting that. I don't see a problem with writing for diversity as long as it is done well. On the other hand, Quitch's latest admission that he does not know any gay people and his earlier question as to the offensiveness of the "hot bi chick" gives me some serious doubts as to whether it would be done well. Imoen should be bisexual if there is a good story to tell in which she has a romantic relationship with another female character. I think that just making her bisexual just to be "politically correct" or making her bisexual simply by making all of the same dialogues open to male and female PCs is the wrong way to go about it.

Perhaps one day games developers will stamp their characters' foreheads with whatever sexuality they had in mind for them, so as to prevent modders from rewriting those characters into something they were never meant to be (Solaufein anyone?).

If we stuck to what characters were meant to be, then we wouldn't be able to do any modding. Sexuality aside, Solaufein was meant to simply be a simpathetic minor character within a quest plot. Proposing that Solaufein would entirely abandon his people rather than go after his stated goal in his last cannonical dialogue to work as part of a good resistance movement is a greater leap than proposing that Solaufein may not be exclusively heterosexual. In other words, why is sexual orientation so much more important than the changes made by other mods that you have to find every opportunity to complain about it. (There are a lot of other problems with Solaufein, his sexuality is just the least annoying one in my mind.)

Basically, you can't have it both ways. You can't have the right to create fanfic and mods, and exclude interpretations that you find personally offensive or disconsonate with the canon. The owners of the BG copyrights could act like Disney and take legal action against anyone creating derivative works. That would solve the problem. However, many franchises that depend on a fanbase recognize that fans might create derivative works that go in directions not intended by the authors.

Why if a character's sexuality is not made absolutely crystal clear must people assume they are bisexual?

Well, as I said. Straight people are so obsessed with letting people know that they are straight, that a person who is ambiguous, evasive or tight-lipped about their sexuality tends to attract suspicion. I don't see many people assuming that Imoen is anything. However given the complete lack of information about Imoen's sexuality her romance with Chloe is just as probable as a romance with Kelsey.

Edited by kirkjobsluder, 09 May 2004 - 04:58 PM.

[Jinnai]

Imoen's sexuality is debatable, as this interminable topic has shown, but I really have no desire to romance her anyway. If Quitch wrote her to be bisexual then everyone would be happy, right?

Somehow I think that the people who argue that a character must be written as heterosexual unless there is screaming evidence otherwise would not be happy.

I don't think its screaming. I think most, who don't want a bi so everyone is happy and likely end up with not as much in-depth (although its not guarateed) want some clear evidence. All the evidence for either way is mimimal and ambigious, largely open to interpretation. Thus heterosexuality would win by default.

If you want to call what i say 'screaming' evidence, so be it, but its not.

Basically, you can't have it both ways.  You can't have the right to create fanfic and mods, and exclude interpretations that you find personally offensive or disconsonate with the canon.  The owners of the BG copyrights could act like Disney and take legal action against anyone creating derivative works.  That would solve the problem.  However, many franchises that depend on a fanbase recognize that fans might create derivative works that go in directions not intended by the authors. 

I don't want to get in an argument in this thread, but I haveto clear this misnomer up. The companys while they might be take legal action would have such a case thrown out of every court in the US as long as such a thing didn't generate money in any way, shape or form.

Well, as I said.  Straight people are so obsessed with letting people know that they are straight, that a person who is ambiguous, evasive or tight-lipped about their sexuality tends to attract suspicion.  I don't see many people assuming that Imoen is anything.  However given the complete lack of information about Imoen's sexuality her romance with Chloe is just as probable as a romance with Kelsey.

Statistically speaking it isn't. I know Imoen isn't a statistic, but that does give some weight against a romance with Chole.

[Quitch]

In the course of my life, I have never talked to anyone who I *knew* was homosexual, yet there are people in the world who are homosexual, I jut haven't knowingly talked to any yet.

How many people in-game do you get in a situation where you'd ever find out their sexuality?  Not many.

More than half of the NPCs by my count. Keldorn, Cernd, Jan, Edwin, and Mazzy drop pretty conspicuous references. Of course there is the romance plots with Aerie, Jaheira, Viconia and Anomen. Valygar even says he is celibate by choice not wanting to carry on the family line (and is given a romance in the epilogue.) Sarevok has his own romance plotline from BGI. Nalia, Yoshimo and Imoen are the only ones I can think that are ambiguous.

I think you're assuming in a lot of those cases that they must be hetrosexual because they loved a woman. Wouldn't that make them equally likely to be bi-sexual? Is there anything that confirms it one way or the other for most of them? No.

How many NPCs are there? How many people do you meet in the course of the game? I would say that my point stands.

Edited by Quitch, 09 May 2004 - 11:22 PM.

[Quitch]

That's the inane route Lord Mirrabo decided to take, so why not do the same just to be a champion of political correctness?

Interesting that. I don't see a problem with writing for diversity as long as it is done well. On the other hand, Quitch's latest admission that he does not know any gay people and his earlier question as to the offensiveness of the "hot bi chick" gives me some serious doubts as to whether it would be done well. Imoen should be bisexual if there is a good story to tell in which she has a romantic relationship with another female character. I think that just making her bisexual just to be "politically correct" or making her bisexual simply by making all of the same dialogues open to male and female PCs is the wrong way to go about it.

"Hot bi chick"? Actually, I believe it was "Because bi chicks are hot" and thus my question occured. Change that context and... well...

My point was, surely it would be better for a writer to choose a path they could write with enthusiasm. If they find bi chicks hot, good for them. I see nothing offensive in such a decision, it would probably make for better writing, so long as they stay to character and don't make it such a personal piece of work that no one else can get involved.

As for writing a homosexual character, that would depend on how different you believe romances between homosexuals to be from those of hetrosexuals. I suspect the difference is, for all important intents and purposes, zero.

Edited by Quitch, 09 May 2004 - 11:30 PM.