528 replies to this topic

[kirkjobsluder]

2) People who don't indicate one way or the other tend to be straight, since the majority of the population is straight
3) Therefore, my opinion is that she's straight

LOL, most of gay and bisexual people I know don't walk around introducing themselves as "I'm Kirk, and I'm bisexual!"

The probability argument is not convincing to me that people who write narratives where Imoen is not heterosexual are doing a bad thing.

[kirkjobsluder]

After you transfer to Throne, while speaking with Sarevok in the pocket plane, one of your options is "Is there no other way of restoring you?" If you have Imoen in your party then this starts a dialog between them in which she says "I'm not as 'sweet' as you think Sarevok. And you don't deserve a second chance at life! You Killed Gorion!"

While her comment is 'not as sweet' instead of 'not being pure' still if you make her take the hit, Imoen says "I would lay down my life for [Charname] and more. In an instant. Always. Maybe one day 'brother' you'll understand what that means."

Still shows that Imoen places [CharName] very highly. That's not where I would place my siblings though.

Gee, I don't know. I find the thought of Imoen laying down her life for a sibling that faced off a powerful archamge, trolled through the underdark, and fought vampires for her to be not suprising. It's funny that every example of possible romantic interest of Imoen for CHARNAME reads to me like sororial devotion.

[kirkjobsluder]

Bad and Offensive: Writing Imoen as bisexual because bi chicks are hot.

Why is this offensive?

Well, there is a long standing cliche' within pornography that runs along the lines of "oh dear, there are not any men around, so I'll just have sex with my roomate." In addition, almost every bisexual woman I've known has been burned when a male lover assumes that she wants to do a threesome, is willing to swing, or is more skilled in bed. The end result is that most bisexual women I know are highly creeped out by the rather intense interest they attract from some men. I'll bring this up with my partner for her experiences as a bi woman.

My personal perspective is that yes, I would be offended myself if Imoen was made gay or bisexual in a way that feels like it is just there to enhance her sex appeal. I've been out for over 12 years now, been there, done that, stood up to prejudice, had some fun and had my heart trampled into the dirt more than I care to remember. It would really bother me if her sexuality was just reduced to on-screen masturbation fantasy material.

[Imrahil]

2) People who don't indicate one way or the other tend to be straight, since the majority of the population is straight
3) Therefore, my opinion is that she's straight

LOL, most of gay and bisexual people I know don't walk around introducing themselves as "I'm Kirk, and I'm bisexual!"

I'm willing to bet 100% of the heterosexual people you know don't introduce themselves as bisexual, which is more than "most". OTOH, we're talking about more than just introductions here.

The probability argument is not convincing to me that people who write narratives where Imoen is not heterosexual are doing a bad thing.

That's good, since no one's using "the probability argument" to support such a claim.

Basically, it's just that if you assume any individual is straight, you'll be right more often than you're wrong. If they exhibit non-straight tendencies, you'll know you were wrong. Imoen, however, doesn't give any definitive reason to think she's not straight, so for many people (myself included), Imoen=hetero is still a safe assumption.

If Quitch or anyone else portrays her as non-straight (in a way that's consistent with her character of course), I wouldn't have a problem with it & I doubt most of the people who currently think of her as hetero would.

- Imrahil

[Imrahil]

When, in any of my posts, did I say I was right and you are wrong?  When, in any of my posts, did I say that mine was the only opinion?

- ?I'm disputing Imoen being hetero 'just because every one else is' or because it's the "norm". It's a short-sighted arguement, and not one based on FR standards, but on real-life standards. Do you understand that??
- ?I think you underestimate.. you know what, I'm not even going to bother.?
- ?And you'll never understand it unless you really want to.?
- ??and then some ..person comes in talking about percentages or some other, equally ridiculous disclaimer.?
- ?Can you hear me now? I'm done talking; believe what you want.?
- ?And it's not like assuming she smokes - what the hell kind of analogy is that? (See? That was rude).?
- ?Not good enough, and you (should) know it.?

Sorry if I misinterpreted comments like these to indicate you consider your opinion to be the only correct one.

No one in the game demonstrates homosexuality.  That would include the same coutesan who claims that there's  someone but, well, s/he's not here right now.  Or am I supposed to be content with that?  The courtesan does not, herself, display these tendancies; my statement still stands.

I think we may be using the term NPC differently, which is causing the problem here. When I say "there are NPC's in the game..." I'm not thinking solely of the people with circles around their feet. Maybe I should say "there are people..." rather than "there are NPC's...". Would you agree with my statement then?

So now that we've reached the point where it seems you've got nothing left, because you're now analyzing me,  this is all I'm saying on the matter

I didn't mean to offend you with my comment - it was just an aside when you wondered why people were all the sudden asking you for proof - most of your posts come across as "your opinion's wrong", to which a request for proof is valid (actually most people were just asking for evidence, which is different from asking for a proof).

But maybe you're right about us just repeating our points. Let's try a different tactic. Here's a list of the *evidence* (not proof) people have given one way or the other, with the most obvious way of refuting it listed as well...

Imoen is Hetero because...
...she doesn?t say one way or the other, & the default is Hetero (doesn?t take into account her personality).
...Bioware didn?t portray her as anything other than straight (they didn?t have the option).
...the books indicate they could have if they wanted to (they have a Family Friendly policy despite the books).
...she flirts with Haer Dalis? (she rejects him; even if she weren?t straight she?d appreciate the compliment).
...she flirts with Keldorn (she could still be Bi).

Imoen is not Hetero because...
...she has characteristics of a Bi person (she has characteristics of a non-Bhaalspawn but that assumption would be false).
...when restoring Sarevok, you get the ?unrequited?? & ?I?d do anything for CHARNAME? speeches regardless of gender (could indicate sibling love not romantic love).
...she says the Dryads are beautiful (straight females can compliment other females; Dryads are beautiful to everyone).
...she?s a lesbian in the books (the books are crap).

Maybe this'll be more productive. Feel free to add to either list anything I've left off.

- Imrahil

[kirkjobsluder]

The probability argument is not convincing to me that people who write narratives where Imoen is not heterosexual are doing a bad thing.

That's good, since no one's using "the probability argument" to support such a claim.

Basically, it's just that if you assume any individual is straight, you'll be right more often than you're wrong. If they exhibit non-straight tendencies, you'll know you were wrong. Imoen, however, doesn't give any definitive reason to think she's not straight, so for many people (myself included), Imoen=hetero is still a safe assumption.

If Quitch or anyone else portrays her as non-straight (in a way that's consistent with her character of course), I wouldn't have a problem with it & I doubt most of the people who currently think of her as hetero would.

- Imrahil

I guess my problem here is that I've been suprised more often than not when someone comes out to me as gay or bisexual. My best friend came out to herself and then to me as bisexual after 5 years of friendship, and two years after I was her best man at her wedding. My point is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The idea of Chloe having a relationship with Imoen seemed reasonable to me because the evidence is ambiguous or non-existent.

Also, I think you are using a probability argument when you say that it is safe to assume Imoen is heterosexual because you will be right more often than not. I don't find that to be a safe assumption, but I'm probably coming from a different place than you.

I guess I see this topic differently. I can't answer the question of whether Imoen is straight, gay, or bisexual because there is not enough information to reach a conclusion. What we can talk about is what sexualities would be good for this mod.

[Quitch]

Bioware didn?t portray her as anything other than straight (they didn?t have the option).

Where?

[Imrahil]

I wasn't offended by what you said, I was offended that you said it

My apologies, then - I'll just think it from now on.

If you don't know what logic it is you're using to argue your point, I can't be bothered.  "she doesn’t say one way or the other, & the default is Hetero" is the probability arguement, as kirk points out rather ..eloquently.

*sigh*... I don't dispute at all that I use "the probability argument" to support certain claims. What I said, however, was that no one has used it to support the claim that "people who write narratives where Imoen is not heterosexual are doing a bad thing."

I have not used any of the "points" you supply as basis for her being one sexuality or the other

I think I've identified the source of my confusion here. All this time I was assuming that Cyb, Cybersquirt(registered), Cyber, & Cybersquirt(unregistered) were the same people. Apparently I was mistaken since they contradict each other so often. It was Cybersquirt(unregistered), not you Cyber, who said "The Imoen I see in the game has an open mind and an open heart, and I do not think she would deny someone based solely on their gender.", which was one of the points I listed.

This all started when you said you don't buy the "homosexuality equals bad sales" - you did say that, right?  That is what this is/was all about, to me, and I'm getting tired of addressing all the superfluous arguements.

Again, mea culpa - it was Cybersquirt(registered) who said "the subject is the opinion on Imoen's sexuality" & "The only thing I take issue with is [the probability argument]". I'll try not to get you all confused from now on.

So, back to "what this is/was all about"...

Do you agree with the statement "There do exist people in the game who display homosexual tendencies, just not the ones who you can initiate dialogue with."? The courtesan quote, to me, shows this to be true.

- Imrahil

[Imrahil]

Bioware didn’t portray her as anything other than straight (they didn’t have the option).

Where?

Perhaps I phrased that poorly - I didn't mean to imply that Bioware portrays her as straight, just that Bioware does not portray her as a lesbian or bisexual, which can be seen as evidence that they didn't intend for her to be lesbian/bi, much like they didn't portray her as being assaulted by "a vicious band of circus clowns," so there's no reason to think she was (or prove she wasn't).

- Imrahil

[kirkjobsluder]

*sigh*... I don't dispute at all that I use "the probability argument" to support certain claims. What I said, however, was that no one has used it to support the claim that "people who write narratives where Imoen is not heterosexual are doing a bad thing."

My apologies. I've been grounding this discussion in light of what sexuality should be written into a future mod.

[Quitch]

Bioware didn?t portray her as anything other than straight (they didn?t have the option).

Where?

Perhaps I phrased that poorly - I didn't mean to imply that Bioware portrays her as straight, just that Bioware does not portray her as a lesbian or bisexual, which can be seen as evidence that they didn't intend for her to be lesbian/bi, much like they didn't portray her as being assaulted by "a vicious band of circus clowns," so there's no reason to think she was (or prove she wasn't).

- Imrahil

I think that using the word "evidence" is pushing it.

I see you've been reading up on my posts.

[Imrahil]

I think that using the word "evidence" is pushing it.

OK, I'll bite... how is that pushing it? Would you assume Jan was obsessed with turnips if he never mentioned the word turnip in any of his dialogues?

I see you've been reading up on my posts.

Naturally, I wouldn't have posted in the first place without reading the first 11+ pages.

- Imrahil

[Imrahil]

Two can play the let's be entirely literal game.

Sorry about getting literal with *you*... it was Cybersquirt(registered) who said "perception is the law, here; I'll remind you to be literal" & that was back when I thought you were all the same person.

I agree with the statement that "we are supposed to believe that there is a courtesan, elsewhere, that will cater to my tastes."

How is that different from "there are people in the game that display homosexual tendencies"? Totally serious - I don't see the difference between "there are" & "we are supposed to believe".

- Imrahil

[Quitch]

I think that using the word "evidence" is pushing it.

OK, I'll bite... how is that pushing it? Would you assume Jan was obsessed with turnips if he never mentioned the word turnip in any of his dialogues?

- Imrahil

I think you'll find that your analogy is flawed in many ways.

[Imrahil]

I've been grounding this discussion in light of what sexuality should be written into a future mod.

We have been at cross-purposes, then (& looking back at your posts I should have realized that). I'm coming from "what do you think Imoen *is*, given her in-game portrayal?"

As far as what should be written in a future MOD, I'm going to be of little use there. I've played with Chloe (where Imoen is a lesbian) & Kelsey (where Imoen is hetero) & enjoyed them both, to differing degrees (if you're wondering, I think Imoen was more "in character" with Chloe than Kelsey, but both were well done). I've also played the Imoen Romance MOD, which was... ok, but not great.

Maybe this'll help - I tend to think Imoen is heterosexual, but if Quitch were to write a MOD where Imoen is a "flaming lesbo" (just using that phrasing to portray an extreme) but Imoen is written in-character & believable (which, judging from the "Ask Imoen" thread, Quitch is dead on), then I'll undoubdtedly download it & enjoy playing it. It wouldn't change the fact that my perception of Imoen is that she's hetero.

- Imrahil