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Imoen's sexuality


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#201 Kish

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 10:35 AM

Personally, an Imoen relationship doesn't appeal to me.

Romance, please. Relationship=/=Romance.

Still, no one is unenlightened or bigoted if they believe Imoen is straight based on the above.

Anyone who thinks "the majority are, therefore this specific character is" is logically sound, is not very good at logic.

Doesn't Imoen have some suggestive dialogue with the male sex slave in Ust Natha and not the female one?

I am unaware of the existence of either of these characters (which means I've never found them, despite speaking to everyone in the city), nor do they show up on a read-through of the .dlg files, so I'm inclined to think they don't exist, but feel free to fill in more details of where they're found.
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#202 Kish

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 10:37 AM

Maybe he meant sth like this - She can be anything, depending on how you talk to her, not just say "You're lesbian/not" at the beginning of game/mod.

I'm sure that's what he means...but it still doesn't answer the question, "Why?"
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#203 Longinus

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 10:45 AM

Anyone who thinks "the majority are, therefore this specific character is" is logically sound, is not very good at logic.

Don't turn this into a petty debate. The odds are she'd be straight. Merely odds.
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#204 Longinus

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 11:03 AM

I am unaware of the existence of either of these characters (which means I've never found them, despite speaking to everyone in the city), nor do they show up on a read-through of the .dlg files, so I'm inclined to think they don't exist, but feel free to fill in more details of where they're found.

There's no dialogue per se. Here's the thread where I read about it: http://forums.interp...pic.php?t=16265
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#205 -KaPe-

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 11:14 AM

I'm sure that's what he means...but it still doesn't answer the question, "Why?"

Doh... Because during both SoA and ToB we don't get ANY clue about her "sexual preferences". Instead, as someone pointed out many posts ago - she acts "asexually"(although it sound a bit weird), mostly like kid. And honestly do you imagine sth like that:
Voice from the Sky( aka ModMaker^^): Imoen, from now you are a lesbian.
Imoen: ? Why?
MM: Because no one said you aren't! So, why not?!
I: But... How can you know I won't find a guy who...
MM: Because I say so!!!
I: But...
MM: Goddamnit!!! YOU ARE A LESBIAN!!!
I: Jeez, okay...

Repeat dialog, if MM decides that she is supposed to be Bi/Hetero.
Funny? No, I don't think so. Since I keep hearing(or reading^^) that MM wants to give people choice *on forum*, who not do it in game as well?
What I'm saying she could turn out to be anything. You can't deny it... or maybe there is a point in game where she becomes he/ho/bi? I haven't found it. Besides, is assuming that she is (whatever) is better?

#206 The Outlaw Torn

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 01:59 PM

Surely the easiest way to do things would be to make her bisexual, so that she can be romanced by a PC of either gender, as that way she can take either a hetero- or homo-sexual route. It's not likely that she'll be breaking up with the PC and then getting together with another character, so the issue of bisexuality shouldn't rear it's ugly head.
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#207 Jinnai

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 02:35 PM

Well Quitch isn't ness going for what's easiest, instead what will make a truly dynamic and well-thought-out well-developed character.

Though i still hold to my saying that noone's (imoen being no exception) personality is set in stone, except a goldem. And even that, what little there is, can be changed.
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#208 Kish

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 07:52 PM

Since I keep hearing(or reading^^) that MM wants to give people choice *on forum*, who not do it in game as well?

Choice?

I don't believe so, though Quitch can speak for himself, of course. He asked us to say what we think Imoen is, and why--not what we want her to be.

Besides, is assuming that she is (whatever) is better?

Better than letting the player decide essential, fixed* qualities of an NPC?

Leagues and light-years.

*(Yes, it is fixed. Only bisexual people can choose to change orientations once they have one.)
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#209 Kish

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 08:15 PM

I am unaware of the existence of either of these characters (which means I've never found them, despite speaking to everyone in the city), nor do they show up on a read-through of the .dlg files, so I'm inclined to think they don't exist, but feel free to fill in more details of where they're found.

There's no dialogue per se. Here's the thread where I read about it: http://forums.interp...pic.php?t=16265

Oh, him. That dialogue goes like this:

I greet you, , by the Dark Mother and the pleasure her children are entitled to. Here we breathe spices of luxury and enjoy the fruits of our conquests.

I have been trained in the temples to master the arts of oiled massage and other exotic pleasures, both to repair the aura and calm the soul.

It is a lengthy process, but a night under my care is worth a fortnight of rest in the finest boudoir... if one has the time for such a diversion, of course.

...then, if you are male, not named Anomen, Keldorn, Edwin, Cernd, Korgan, Jan, Minsc, or Kelsey, and not involved in the Jaheira or Aerie romance, you can say, "I could use that kind of rest. What do I need to do?"

And if you are female, not named Aerie, Jaheira, or Mazzy, and not involved in the Anomen or Kelsey romance, you can say, "I might be interested in such a night, male. Show me your skills."

And no matter who you are, you can say, "I don't think I'd be interested in anything like that."

There is no female pleasure slave...whether the male there is actually a pleasure slave or not. (The "we" in the first paragraph suggests he is not.)

Make of that what you will.
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#210 -KaPe-

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 11:16 PM

Better than letting the player decide essential, fixed* qualities of an NPC?

Leagues and light-years.

*(Yes, it is fixed. Only bisexual people can choose to change orientations once they have one.)

Show me that those "qualities" are fixed, and I will believe you. Since nowhere in game it is stated, she can be any. Probably bi^^

#211 Kish

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Posted 07 May 2003 - 02:49 AM

Better than letting the player decide essential, fixed* qualities of an NPC?

Leagues and light-years.

*(Yes, it is fixed.  Only bisexual people can choose to change orientations once they have one.)

Show me that those "qualities" are fixed, and I will believe you.

Simple. I'm straight. There have been times in my life when I've wished I was gay, because there was someone of my gender whom I wanted to be involved with, but wishing did me no good at all--the attraction wasn't there, and that was that. Unless you're bisexual, you can prove to yourself that your orientation is fixed simply by attempting to make yourself attracted to whichever gender you are not attracted to. If you are bisexual, you can probably prove to yourself that that orientation is fixed by attempting to make yourself monosexual--that is, deciding you will never again be attracted to anyone of one gender, and attempting to make it happen.

Since nowhere in game it is stated, she can be any. Probably bi^^

I agree, entirely.
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#212 Jurang

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Posted 07 May 2003 - 12:50 PM

I remember a line form the german version (BG1)- when the two meet fo rhte first itme, she says (spoken)

"Ist schön, ne alte liebe zu treffen" or somethign like that....

"Nice to meet an old love"

Based on that, I'd say she's hetero.

but if you make her bi, I won't protest against it.

#213 -Guest-

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Posted 07 May 2003 - 01:22 PM

Simple.  I'm straight.  (...)

I meant in game^^ I don't need to know about your life :D (No offense) And since you agree, it's all well.

As for the text in german ver. - well, I played polish one, and I don't recall anything which would prove she's hetero. So it's 1:1^^. Anyone else can confirm?

#214 -KaPe-

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Posted 07 May 2003 - 01:25 PM

(that post above was mine^^)

#215 Kish

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Posted 07 May 2003 - 02:16 PM

I meant in game^^

A quality that's fixed IRL would logically be fixed on Faerun as well, unless there's something weird in the air there. :-)

And since you agree, it's all well.

That Imoen's gender preference is unknowable, since the original game designers didn't give her one--yes, entirely. That CHARNAME should have anything to say about it--never.

As for the text in german ver. - well, I played polish one, and I don't recall anything which would prove she's hetero. So it's 1:1^^. Anyone else can confirm?

There is no such line in the American version, I can confirm.

And even if there was...why would that make her hetero? CHARNAME is not automatically male.
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#216 Jurang

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 12:10 AM

Just to be sure, I played the german version again - this time with a female character. She said the smae line again - so IO wouldn't really count it as a proof for anything - because

a) it is obviously just in the german version
b)the translation is really bad form the Us original version to the german one, so it may just bea mistake


Therefore, I wouldn't count it as a proof at all. I believe we shoudl gowith the us version as the standard one.

#217 Silverdragon_yunami

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 04:22 PM

Personally, I feel that Imoen is bi. Of course, my life's philosophies, stated simply, are that love knows neither age, nor gender, nor social status. I also believe that many people are bisexual without even knowing it. It is possible--especially in the teenage and early-twenties years--to be attracted to people of either sex, either physically or emotionally. If Imoen is in love, whether she's in love with a guy or a girl shouldn't matter.

Now, having said my piece, may I (non-rudely) remind y'all that we're talkin' about a character in a game?

#218 Longinus

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 07:10 AM

Of course, my life's philosophies, stated simply, are that love knows neither age, nor gender, nor social status.

While this is certainly romantic, lust does indeed know age, gender etc.

People are attracted to whomever they prefer on a physical level (i.e. some women like older men, believe it or not). Emotions can reinforce physical attraction but they can't determine it.
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#219 Longinus

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 07:20 AM

I also believe that many people are bisexual without even knowing it.

I don't think you can speak for everyone. :D

Latest statistics still put heterosexual people in the majority. People seek out people they are attracted to, of their own free will, get married and have kids on an exponential scale.
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#220 Koyasha

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 04:15 PM

Well, going to touch on a number of things mentioned in the thread here.. First, Kish mentions that sexuality is a fixed quality in a person...personally, I don't completely agree. Not something that is easily changed - or something which I believe can be changed by a personal decision - but I don't consider it something that's completely fixed and unchangeable. I also don't believe it's something we're born with, but rather something that develops as people are exposed to and think about sexuality and relationships (of that type). And as people have mentioned, the history of Imoen doesn't particularly indicate that they would be exposed to and/or think about such things very much so far. Therefore, the thought that what happens during the course of the game, the choices made by the protagonist, could impact Imoen's choice of sexuality are perfectly plausible to me. Whether or not that's something that should happen during the course of the game, I haven't formulated my own opinion on, but it does strike me as something possible.

I'm going backwards along the thread, so bear with the reversed order of responses (at the end, I'll have my own complete thoughts on the matter as well, I just wanted to get the replies that I thought of while I was reading the thread out). Longinus says the reason the NPC's that have pre-coded romances will only initiate with a character of the opposite gender is because most people are heterosexual...I disagree. Like some have said before, I think the reason is because the issue of lesbians and gays is very minimally represented in games, because it causes a good deal of turmoil and controversy. It's easier for the game writers to completely bypass the thought, than it is to observe it and possibly produce a significant amount of controversy and bad press. There've been very few games that include any sort of homosexual relationship at all, and it's most likely more because of marketing reasons and pressure from anti-homosexual groups. The same thing applies to Kozand's suggestion that the Edwin/Edwina plot is somehow a more controversial matter than a lesbian/bi Imoen. I don't see any similarity whatsoever. Sex-switching magic has been commonly mentioned (though rarely actually appearring) in D&D for a long time, and has nothing to do with a person's sexual preference (usually it's some kind of curse, such as the Girdle in BG1). It's simply a magical effect that people tend to find amusing, especially when it happens to someone like Edwin. If he found himself suddenly attracted to men in his new form, that might be a little closer to what you comment on, but he doesn't, he wants to get rid of the curse as soon as possible.

Domi, even assuming Imoen was 17 and not 20, this is the Realms, not Earth (and even there, primarily modern western civilization). 17 is old enough to be married and well on your way to a child, if not already with a little one, in the Realms, really, for humans, at least. The fact that the protagonist can be an elf, yet still referred to as being that young has always been an odd point, but it's not entirely without precedent that elves do grow up that fast (primarily noted with Drizzt Do`Urden and Liriel Baenre - Drizzt is 25 when he goes to Melee-Magthere, but it's noted he grows at about the same rate as a human) going by the logical assumption that Dark Elves and other elf races grow at approximately the same rate of speed, the fact that elf PC's in D&D start out at 100+ is simply a societal thing, like our current real world society doesn't treat people as adults until 21, (at least in most portions of the US) but are physically and, depending on upbringing, mentally adults as early as 15 or so. Though, if elven kids grew up that slow, I can understand why there are few of them; who would want to deal with a baby for two decades and a toddler for four more? :lol:

So my own thoughts on the matter... Well, given what I have seen of Imoen's personality in-game so far, it's hard to pin her down in one direction or another. And one has to include the consideration that they wouldn't write in anything that would make her obviously a lesbian, due to the marketing/controversy issues mentioned above. That doesn't directly lead me to draw any conclusions about her, save for the fact that she's very, very unspecified. If this were taken to indicate that she has very little experience with the subject, it can indicate that her preference will be formed through the things that happen throughout her life. So an examination about what we know about her life could help..granted, this is going to be slightly subjective depending on who examines it, but my own thoughts.. Well, the events of BG1 aren't particularly fresh in my mind, but starting with Sarevok killing Gorion, she has only the player character to rely upon. One wonders what sort of relationship she may have developed with Dynaheir, assuming they were both in the party back then, as it can be important in her reaction to the news that Dynaheir is dead after Jon's dungeon in BG2, which can further help form her opinion of Jon (which I suppose can't get a heck of a lot worse, but still, her relationship with female NPC's in the party that could serve as examples to be looked up to can be of importance in the formation of her opinions). Tomoko would also be an interesting influence, as perhaps minor as her part was. I think Imoen would admire her in one way, for her sticking by Sarevok; she might make paralells to herself and CHARNAME because of that. After Jon and BG2, I tend to think she would resent Jon, and in retrospect, Sarevok would also play a part in this; she may, as some note, find it difficult to get close to a male due to this, depending on how she sees it. It could even strain her relationship with CHARNAME. On the other hand, it could simply drive her to be more dependent upon the player character as the only one who is always there for her. I might think she would end up somewhat distrustful and difficult to get close to men. There may not be any overt indication, but depending on how these events affect her (completely subjective, I understand, the way you and I think they affect her may be completely different), I would assign her some distinct lesbian tendencies - when she even is ready to get into that sort of relationship, which she probably wouldn't be anytime particularly soon. The other possibility, driving her toward the player character, is exceedingly dependent on whether or not CHARNAME is male or female. Either way, if CHARNAME becomes the only person that she can ever rely on, according to her viewpoint, I would believe that she would be driven toward liking characters of the protagonist's gender (not necessarily CHARNAME, because of the sister-type relationship, but definitely driven toward liking those of CHARNAME's gender).

On the other hand, considering Imoen's age, it could be a bit late for these opinions to be forming, perhaps depending on just how sheltered her life in Candlekeep was, exactly. In the end, all of the speculation leads me to a similar conclusion as some of the others have come up with; she doesn't seem the type to have a specific requirement, whether race or sex for the person she would love. Imoen's attitude seems to me as one who is most likely open to care about anyone who truly cares about her, and the thought of whether that person is male or female wouldn't enter into it as much as whether or not she can feel the same way about this person. I'd consider her bisexual simply because in my view of her, she would be attracted to someone who is kind...a bit stronger than her, generally a good person, and probably a bit put off by extreme lawfulness, but someone who feels that way about her, and whether that someone is male or female wouldn't be an issue.

Well Met,
Koyasha Jurai