528 replies to this topic

[Littiz]

Ah, ok...
How were you born, Soldats?
Illuminate me.
I have a theory (from a father and a mother?), but maybe it's just
my sick imagination

@Quitch, I think you have a somewhat wrong position.
Homosexuality is to a vast(total?) degree genetical, so, either
she is, or she isn't, no matter her experiences.

Then of course homosexuals can't reproduce themselves, that's why the
trait remains marginal in evolution and keeps the same "statistic relevance".
(if a trait is "good" and can be transmitted, it expands among the race in time,
if the trait is "bad" or "ininfluent" it just keeps the original incidence,
given mostly by the NEW occurences of it)

(Ah, no, I'm NOT religious at all)

[alustriel]

Genetic is one theory yes, but not proven... yet.

Outside environment has a HUGE impact on the development of a child and can shape and/or change the person regardless of genetics. Hence the child that is abused repeatedly may show drastic alterations in behavior....

If.... if it's genetic, it's most likely an alteration in certain genes that brings these traits on, thus they can be passed on to the next generation. But, nature is going to favor those with traits that lead to the production of the next generation as always.. Survival of the fittest. An alteration or mutation is not necessarily the norm unless that trait becomes dominant due to outside pressure to change. There's no gain for a society to become more dominantly homosexual, because the race would slowly die out. I agree with you there. But... IF homosexuality is genetic, by it's own nature it can't be the "norm" because it would be the means to the end of the species. Do not get me wrong... I do not consider homosexuality to be wrong or bad in any way. It's just not the evolutionary norm.

[Auvrin]

In response to the reproduction comment... Here's something horrific to think apon...

Today's science is now able to take a cell from another woman and use it in the conception of a child within another woman. It is, by no means, "normal". However this would more or less destroy the theory of "males being needed for reproduction". I being male myself, find it a bit unsettling that we could be catagorized as "optional reproductive cattle" in the future.

As for homosexuality being genetic.. I feel it can also be a learned trait. Mental conditioning or strictly self choice.

[Kish]

We're talking about a world of magic. Reproduction by means other than heterosexual sex is certainly possible there.

Not that it matters. Being an archmage isn't "normal" either. Imoen is proudly one of the least normal people in the game.

As far as I can tell, the current arguments offered are:

Some people think she's heterosexual because they view that as the "default setting".
Some people think she's bi or lesbian because they have a feeling about it.

No one seems to have a better reason than one of those for their opinion. (Myself included.)

I suspect Quitch would like to hear either 1) reasons why people believe the character Imoen in the setting is inclined one way or the other, or 2) reasons why it would make a better mod to make her one way or the other. It's possible s/he would just like to hear votes, or even watch us argue all day about the reproductive capabilities of homosexuals, but I doubt it. Anyone? Got an argument that doesn't take the form, "Well, normal people are..." or, "I can tell by looking at Imoen that she is..."?

[Littiz]

Just to close the evolution subtopic.
To be precise, it has to be said that human evolution is somewhat on hold.
At least in the most "civilized" world, society takes care of the "weaker"
elements, so still they can reproduce themselves.
This breaks the "selection" mechanism.
Flaws and "mistakes" can pile up, probably leading to an involution and to
an even greater need of society itself to come in help of the single person.
This could be catastrophic in the end, unless we start modifying and improving
our genetic code directly (which probably will happen).
Again though, homosexuals keep the same statistic incidence, basically 'cause
they don't reproduce.

About women autoreproducing... well if a thing like an all-women world
should ever happen, my guess is that it would fall to a quick end, as the
basical needed variety for the race would be missing.
This applies also for the psycological sphere, I mean, maybe the race would
just fade away thanx to the suicide rate.

Anyway.

I agree that the decision is left to Quitch.
I've given my opinion and my view on the matter, and will say no more.
I have just a request that I consider legitimate:
before eventually a download will be available, information should be
given about "Imoen sexuality" in the mod.
So people without a fast connection, like me, will be able to ultimately
decide if they're interested in downloading it or not.

[Dashael]

In regard to my previous comment about Imoen not actively checking anyone out, I withdraw it, because playing through Big Jon's dungeon again I got the impression she was checking out the dryads

[Auvrin]

before eventually a download will be available, information should be
given about "Imoen sexuality" in the mod.
So people without a fast connection, like me, will be able to ultimately
decide if they're interested in downloading it or not.

You're kidding me right? You would let one small aspect of a mod prevent you from downloading it? I mean, seriously, it's not even a harsh or violent reason. I would think Quitch's design of the character and the extra play to the game would be enough for anyone to download it, then again you'll probably download it anyways without saying anything. Your loss if you don't download it.

playing through Big Jon's dungeon again I got the impression she was checking out the dryads

A person can find another of the same sex attractive without being homosexual

[Gospel]

In regard to my previous comment about Imoen not actively checking anyone out, I withdraw it, because playing through Big Jon's dungeon again I got the impression she was checking out the dryads :)

GRRRRRRR! :(

[Quitch]

Please don't waste my time by banging on about how it's my decision. I'm not an idiot.

[Littiz]

Please don't waste my time by banging on about how it's my decision. I'm not an idiot.

Come on, that was simply retoric, and just a line.

then again you'll probably download it anyways without saying anything

you don't see me as an enough determined person?
Well my ideas, likings and attitudes are very strong, usually
But even then, one should know what he's downloading.

Your loss if you don't download it.

Indeed.

A person can find another of the same sex attractive without being homosexual

Here I agree, happens to everyone

[LSWSjr]

She strikes me as a character that would fall in love with a person rather than a man or a woman. [...]

Basically I don't think she'd have a sexual preference, but rather an emotional preference, based on the way she feels about individuals.

B) What you stated is exactly how I usually write/script Imoen relationships and romances, they should be without sexual preferance in general and focus on how Imoen feels about that Protagonist, PC or NPC. B)

LSWSjr of LSWSjr Publications, Australia signing off.

[LSWSjr]

[...] She does, or will, want to have sex with SOMEBODY, SOMETIME.

Imoen may love you the (CHARNAME) for who you are and so forth, but if she's not turned on by (CHARNAME), she's turned on by SOMEBODY.

B) Quite a good point JC and one that I endorse and give a thumbs up to, this of course being a thing you have already looked at with your great lil Mod Kelsey. B)

LSWSjr of LSWSjr Publications, Australia signing off.

[Wynne]

About women autoreproducing... well if a thing like an all-women world should ever happen, my guess is that it would fall to a quick end, as the basical needed variety for the race would be missing.

Oh my god is that ever stupid. I have heard men make "all women are alike" type assumptions before, but this one takes the cake. Hating the idea of a world without your gender is one thing... this is quite another.


Anyway, as to Imoen... I think it's impossible to decide, really. I get the same feeling about her that JC gets. She could like girls, though.

I wouldn't say that open-mindedness or emotion would make her bi, on the other hand... I personally am very open-minded. I think many women are beautiful, and on an emotional/spiritual level, find them to be great--some I could almost have imagined sharing a life with. But at the same time, there's a spark missing... there's no romantic attraction, and there's no desire for sex. So although Imoen does seem open to me, that's not to say she likes both genders at all. She might be like me--sometimes having wished she were bi because she knows some great women, but unable to muster any passion for them even if she tries. Same if she's lesbian--maybe she knows some great men, but can't like them THAT way.

[Teno20]

Suppose she's bi-curious?

Just a suggestion...

[Littiz]

Oh my god is that ever stupid. I have heard men make "all women are alike" type assumptions before, but this one takes the cake. Hating the idea of a world without your gender is one thing... this is quite another.

And your gender has the annoying attitude of always taking
someone else's words and put them the way it wants

If your read more carefully it's clear that my words would apply even
to an all-men world.

The assumption (which you can disagree with) is that we need relation
with the other sex to an incredible extent, not only to have just sex
I think that every step of our life is somehow related to this need of
confrontation-relation-help-love-hate-attraction
Should one of the two genders miss the other one, all would fall apart.

[Souless]

Why Imoen's sexuality is such a big of an issue ? after all it's a relationship mod and not a romance mod, so why a relationship, no matter how deep and profound, HAS TO orbit around sex ?
The reason to humans having sex without limiting it to mating season is because humans are the only species, as far as I know, on this dirt ball that actually derive pleasure from the act, sex isn't a prerequisite for a relationship, as far as I know.
Imoen can equally love a male or female (n)pc and have a deep relationship with him/her which doesn't include a bed.

Whichever of the three choices Quitch decides to go with will make somebody unhappy, my suggestion is taking the neutral path (which of course can make everyone unhappy but at least that way they'll be all equally unhappy).

[serjeLeBlade]

I wonder if Quitch could find anything useful in all of our posts...
It's obvious that different people have different opinions, so maybe a poll could have served the purpose better... ?

Anyway, I think that if the goal is to "satisfy the majority of the audience" to say so, Imoen should be able to adjust her tastes in some measure as a function of the pc's gender, persuasion and behaviour.

Those of us who wished to may have already played homo and bi- characters, and Imoen never objected (nor commented) on it.
Since I guess that with this mod she will start to have something to say about our romances, I'd say that she should show a fair amount of tolerance to say the least.

[Lucythebeast]

A poll? But then Quitch wouldn't be able to laugh at us for quibbling over something as meaningless as sexual preferance.

And on that subject, the idea that being sexually interested in members of one's own gender as being "unusual" and "counterproductive to reproduction, and thus evolution" is crap. Simply observing the sexual behavior of animals you find that bisexuality is quite prevalent, especially in females and most commonly in simians. It's there, it's always been there, and it will always be there. The simple fact is, people have sex for reasons other than procreation. It's also recreation. Thus, the desire to have sex only with a person one can procreate with becomes less meaningful. Yes, if a woman wants to have a baby she'll go to a man but if either one of those two people just want to have sex for the fun of it, they don't have to go to each other, they can just as easily go to someone of the same gender and have a fun time.

In history, there have always been periods of acceptance and even support of bisexuality followed by periods of persecution, followed by acceptance. Currently we're coming off a period of persecution and are in the beginning of another period of acceptance. Likely in another generation, the idea of people being this opposed to homosexual relations as to refuse to download a mod that contains then will be as unheard of as not allowing a person to join the military because their skin happens to be on the dark side is now. Yes there is still going to be a few stalwart bigots that so oppose the idea of such things that they're willing to take an aggressive stance against it, but then there are also people living in cabins in the woods hiding because they feel the government is out to get them and have devices in their homes that can read their minds if they don't wear tinfoil on their heads. Anyway... enough of that.