162 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

Union, as proposed by TGM, didn?t make me happy, to be honest. Cleric mages don?t need MORE spells, and an increase in casting time speed creates too many problems, as we all know.
Also, the two kinds of magic are inherently different, have different restrictions and sources, so I don?t fully agree with the concept.

Not entirely. As we discussed several times before, the spellcasting speed increase was dropped (and if not, it should be) from the ability - it was replaced by spellcasting level increase, which makes the spells of that character to act at an increased level.
And I think it has merit to assume that having mastered both types of magic (divine and arcane) can have some beneficial effects on the character - though I'm open for new suggestions on it's exact nature. For example, there was an interesting suggestion: it would be nice if the high-level C/M could "swap" spell slots between arcane and divine spells - I mean, the Union ability would allow him/her to lose some clerical spell slots and receive a few extra for mage spells. Of course, this might not be implementable, but at least an idea, and truly fitting for this multiclass IMO. Something like this is what we should add here.

I propose an ability that would be truly unique, for this class: an Enhanced Dispel Magic, cast maybe at the equivalent of 20-25th level, with wide area effect and the additional bonus of NOT affecting party members. Maybe combined with a True Sight effect. This should open new strategical situations.

As you pointed out before, this is nothing more than an enlarged Remove Magic - and while it is nice, it won't truly fit this class. There some similar high-level spells in pnp (Nullification for example), but they are mostly pure mage or clerical spells.
Also, I don't think we should turn a C/M into a spellcasting Inquisitor (your suggestion heavily resembles the combination of Keldorn's special innates).

I?d move the casting time speed increase to an ability for Fighter/Clerics (?Combat Blessings? or a similar name): they can learn to effectively merge the two fields (combat and praying) and ?adapt the prayers? to a faster in-battle casting.

Sorry, but again, this do not seems to be the best choice here - lower casting time has nothing to do with fighters, really (as someone already pointed out before my post) - if we would be talking about opcodes like "immunity to spell-disruption" for example it would be perfect. But since this is not the case..

[Littiz]

it was replaced by spellcasting level increase, which makes the spells of that character to act at an increased level.

Last time I checked, it was speed increase. Spellcasting level increase would be fitting, but not very useful at some point.

For example, there was an interesting suggestion: it would be nice if the high-level C/M could "swap" spell slots between arcane and divine spells - I mean, the Union ability would allow him/her to lose some clerical spell slots and receive a few extra for mage spells. Of course, this might not be implementable, but at least an idea, and truly fitting for this multiclass IMO.

Why should a god grant "spell swapping" with his prayers?
If you think in terms of game mechanics, the idea might be nice, but if you think about substance...
anyway, if you're willing to code this thing and face all of the (technical) problems it will arise...

Also, I don't think we should turn a C/M into a spellcasting Inquisitor (your suggestion heavily resembles the combination of Keldorn's special innates).

Things would be different. Making them always work - and work together - would be a great boost, and if you add "intelligent targeting", then you'd have a very powerful ability, which would have some sense for C/M: knowing both types of magic would help avoiding being "fooled" by it.

Sorry, but again, this do not seems to be the best choice here - lower casting time has nothing to do with fighters, really (as someone already pointed out before my post) - if we would be talking about opcodes like "immunity to spell-
disruption" for example it would be perfect. But since this is not the case..

Immunity to spell-disruption would be cheating.
What, you're caught by a dragon's breath or cast away by a wing buffet, and still keep casting?
What about gestures, components, and all?
While learning to combine things in a faster and efficient way, for a character that uses both magic and combat, would definitely hold some sense, imho

Anyway, if we can't agree, then we must find something else.

Edited by Littiz, 14 January 2005 - 03:55 AM.

[Nerik]

Here's a suggestion for the Fighter/Mage HLA:

Defensive Casting
(Based on the Bladesinger special ability
)
This ability represents the training that a Fighter/Mage has in avoiding attacks while spell-casting - using this ability, the fighter gains a bonus to their armour class while casting spells, but has to take longer casting the spell (as they're not concentrating wholey on casting the spell.

Implimentation
I suggest something similar to what I suggested for my Parry Low-level ability in Mod Ideas - an innate ability, usable at will, that lasts for one round (6 seconds), while the effect is running, the Fighter/Mage gains a bonus to their armour class (and, maybe, saving throws) of -4/+4, but their spell casting time is increased by +2 and all of their action buttons except spell-casting are disabled.

Charles

[T.G.Maestro]

If you think in terms of game mechanics, the idea might be nice, but if you think about substance...
anyway, if you're willing to code this thing and face all of the (technical) problems it will arise...

I haven't given a single moment to it's implementation so far, as I said, it was only an idea.

Immunity to spell-disruption would be cheating.
What, you're caught by a dragon's breath or cast away by a wing buffet, and still keep casting?
What about gestures, components, and all?

Don't ask me, ask AD&D - there are countless feats and skills in 3rdE that give you resistance/immunity to various forms of spell disruption (Concentration skill for example). And to be honest, I can see the logic in them well - I think it is pretty much possible for a most disciplined character to be able to concentrate on his magic even while tortured by massive pain or smashed to a wall.
Anyway, since this cannot be implemented here and now, we can just as well drop the idea - while there IS a "Creature Non-interruptible" opcode, it won't work for me.

Things would be different. Making them always work - and work together - would be a great boost, and if you add "intelligent targeting", then you'd have a very powerful ability, which would have some sense for C/M: knowing both types of magic would help avoiding being "fooled" by it.

Frankly, my main concern with this is that it is way too specific for a generic HLA - it highly concentrates on dispelling effects, and I think such a multi would need something more universal, thats what I tried to represent with Union. Sure, we can drop those bonus spells and add something else instead, but the Spellcasting Level increase still seems a fitting point here to me - not to mention that I'm most proud of the visuals of this one (have you tried them?).

Defensive Casting
(Based on the Bladesinger special ability
)
This ability represents the training that a Fighter/Mage has in avoiding attacks while spell-casting - using this ability, the fighter gains a bonus to their armour class while casting spells, but has to take longer casting the spell (as they're not concentrating wholey on casting the spell.

Implimentation
I suggest something similar to what I suggested for my Parry Low-level ability in Mod Ideas - an innate ability, usable at will, that lasts for one round (6 seconds), while the effect is running, the Fighter/Mage gains a bonus to their armour class (and, maybe, saving throws) of -4/+4, but their spell casting time is increased by +2 and all of their action buttons except spell-casting are disabled.

There is a significant flaw in this implementation: the AC bonus would always apply, not only while casting a spell, and that is definitely not intended. Also, I find it somewhat strange that a character has better AC while concentrating on a spell and all of it's verbal components than while holding his sword and facing the enemy...

[Littiz]

Don't ask me, ask AD&D - there are countless feats and skills in 3rdE that give you resistance/immunity to various forms of spell disruption

But we're not here to reproduce someone else's mistakes

And to be honest, I can see the logic in them well - I think it is pretty much possible for a most disciplined character to be able to concentrate on his magic even while tortured by massive pain or smashed to a wall.

I'd agree to this logic if we were talking about monks, for instance.
Magic has very strict rules in this setting, it requires gestures, arcane words (and luckily these are implemented even in BG2), and material components (which are "unseen" in BG2).
Maybe for sorcs I could accept it, especially with our HLAs put in the cauldron, but it would still be a forcing of a wrong concept, imho.

Frankly, my main concern with this is that it is way too specific for a generic HLA - it highly concentrates on dispelling effects, and I think such a multi would need something more universal, thats what I tried to represent with Union.
Sure, we can drop those bonus spells and add something else instead, but the Spellcasting Level increase still seems a fitting point here to me - not to mention that I'm most proud of the visuals of this one (have you tried them?)

A bit too specific, you're right. But I don't think adding spells is needed either.
The increase in casting spell level is fine, as I said: it's just a bit weak as a bonus.
I haven't tried the visuals yet, but of course we can reuse them in any case

Edited by Littiz, 17 January 2005 - 12:45 PM.

[the bigg]

A bit too specific, you're right. But I don't think adding spells is needed either.
The increase in casting spell level is fine, as I said: it's just a bit weak as a bonus.
I haven't tried the visuals yet, but of course we can reuse them in any case

It's not exactly like a small bonus when Spell Sequencing 3 Smite Evil while using spell-50... A EG +5 to spellcasting level yields +15d4 damage, save for half... People may just stop hating Aerie after they try this combo once
Yes, I'm a Spell sequencer chater / loser / whatever I even cast Chain Contingency in battle once for 3 + 1 ADHW per round... (as a justification, I was doing the Eclipse )

Is adding some points to the spellcasting level is going to be useful in late TOB?
If you use Spell-50, of course yes.
Without some form of spell-50 (either weimeric's mod or BP), on the other hand, it's not that a great feat, especially in later TOB; even by middle TOB though (after WK, before Yaga) your benefits aren't that great anyway (+4 to the W, +1 to the C).
So, unless forcing / hardwiring Spell-50, increasing the casting level isn't going to help.

Anybody wants to force me to do a purely tp2-driven Spell-50? Chances are that, if Littiz comes up in my college (he doesn't live that far from me) and menaces me with an handgun, I might even do that B)

[T.G.Maestro]

But we're not here to reproduce someone else's mistakes

Littiz, this is NOT a mistake. We might disagree here, but as I said before it is perfectly acceptable for Fighter-Mages or Fighter-Clerics (I'm not talking about normal spellcasters!).

Magic has very strict rules in this setting, it requires gestures, arcane words (and luckily these are implemented even in BG2), and material components (which are "unseen" in BG2).

And all of these can be avoided - there are feats and skills that grant the ability to cast spells without a single gesture, allow spellcasting while silenced, and as discussed before, make it harder for an attack (be it physical or magical) to disrupt the caster. And I see these as good ideas, when used with the proper prerequisites. A high-level Battlemage cannot be disrupted as easily by large fiery explosions or even damage than a normal enchanter who never experienced the heat of a battle - this is quite logical.

The increase in casting spell level is fine, as I said: it's just a bit weak as a bonus.

Yep, thats true - we have to find an additional (possibly passive and "neutral") bonus for this.

So, unless forcing / hardwiring Spell-50, increasing the casting level isn't going to help.

The problem with Spell50 is that it makes ALL spells, especially the damaging ones incredibly powerful - something between the 2 solutions would be nice - maybe creating a system that depends on spell level too (I mean, higher level spells can advance further than lower level ones - while a Fireball would stop at 10D6 damage, an 8th level Horrid Wilting could progress further than it's current limit).

[Stone Wolf]

There's actually a spell in the game that allows you to create a spell component of your choice. Not useful in the standard game, but I've got a high-level spell that requires a very rare component, and I'm putting in the conjuring spell to help make that easier. Of course, the conjuring spell is quite rare despite its low level.

Are you going to implement material components? I've kinda lost track.

[T.G.Maestro]

Are you going to implement material components? I've kinda lost track.

For the TDs, yes, but they are another story. And even in their case, we cannot talk about completely new "components": it's only that those 10th level spells will require components like gems, spell scrolls, and sometimes other existing materials like weapons or armor. It's not likely that they will require unique or heavily limited/plot components.

[Littiz]

Littiz, this is NOT a mistake. We might disagree here, but as I said before it is perfectly acceptable for Fighter-Mages or Fighter-Clerics (I'm not talking about normal spellcasters!).

If there were ONE point in fantasy settings where "logic" should apply, is that a magic user shouldn't be able to complete an unfinished spell (which requires -by any definition- gestures, casting, concentration) while being hit with a severing weapon or something, or smashed upon a wall..
Luckily this is how things are implemented, for everyone. No way you can convince me it could be otherwise

A high-level Battlemage cannot be disrupted as easily by large fiery explosions or even damage than a normal enchanter who never experienced the heat of a battle - this is quite logical.

Uhm, and what if the arm he's gesturing with gets abruptly severed?
What if he's knocked out somehow?
Imnsho, as long as one spell has casting time greater than 0, logic demands that it remains interruptable through phisical harm or whatever.
Otherwise, no reason for having a casting time.

The problem with Spell50 is that it makes ALL spells, especially the damaging ones incredibly powerful - something between the 2 solutions would be nice - maybe creating a system that depends on spell level too (I mean, higher level spells can advance further than lower level ones - while a Fireball would stop at 10D6 damage, an 8th level Horrid Wilting could progress further than it's current limit).

I'd prefer not change the rules here.
If one wants spell 50, hey, the mod already exists.
I for one don't use it, I don't intend to use it, and I wouldn't want to port such changes in refinements, either...
Let's just find something to add to that effect, and make the ability more interesting in some other way.

Anybody wants to force me to do a purely tp2-driven Spell-50? Chances are that, if Littiz comes up in my college (he doesn't live that far from me) and menaces me with an handgun, I might even do that

Bribe.
Cleaner, more efficient, and always gets the job done.
But since I don't desire those changes, you missed an easy income for this time, sorry

[the bigg]

Bribe.
Cleaner, more efficient, and always gets the job done.
But since I don't desire those changes, you missed an easy income for this time, sorry

[T.G.Maestro]

If there were ONE point in fantasy settings where "logic" should apply, is that a magic user shouldn't be able to complete an unfinished spell (which requires -by any definition- gestures, casting, concentration) while being hit with a severing weapon or something, or smashed upon a wall..

3rdE has a perfect system for this: every time one is hit or suffers damage (or anything else that would otherwise break his concentration), he is entitled for a save (or Concentration/Discipline skill check, IIRC). The difficulty of this check depends on the type of the attack, and in the end it makes a very well balanced result. The biggest problem with 2ndE (BG2) is that we cannot add such a system, we can only use complete immunity to spell disruption (by damage) or complete vulnerablity, so it is quite pointless to discuss this anyway.

Luckily this is how things are implemented, for everyone.

Yeh. In v2, that is.

[Littiz]

Yeh. In v2, that is.

No, I meant in the regular game: everyone is interruptable (actually, even spells with casting time 0 can be broken, you know it if you play with autopause...But I'd rate this a technical feature )

[T.G.Maestro]

Yeh. In v2, that is.

No, I meant in the regular game: everyone is interruptable (actually, even spells with casting time 0 can be broken, you know it if you play with autopause...But I'd rate this a technical feature

Ehh, I meant 2nd E, not v2...

[Jinnai]

Why should a god grant "spell swapping" with his prayers?
If you think in terms of game mechanics, the idea might be nice, but if you think about substance...
anyway, if you're willing to code this thing and face all of the (technical) problems it will arise...

Well first off if your god is the God of Magic, i doubt there would be much.

But nott all, or even many, M/Cs are. So why would other gods allow this? Frankly for them, its less effort. IE they don't get pestered as much asking for more spells. But even if they were worried about you becoming too abusive with your new power, which most gods wouldn't care, they'd probably allow it if the total level you gave up was less than the total level of spell levels gained.


Really the best thing for the fighter mage would be to allow them to wear certain types of armor during battle and still cast spells, with some chance of failure.

So you want to wear plate mail? Your F/M has been around long enough to know how plate mail works (i'm assuming he wears it a lot) and how he needs to move with his spells. So he can try casting while wearing it, but still have some chance of failure rather than no matter what not being able to cast spells at all.

The other idea would be to give immunity to specific spells that would really hinder your characters ability to particpate in combat, such as those that make you fall unconscious, go beserk, flee, etc. But not damage

[T.G.Maestro]

Really the best thing for the fighter mage would be to allow them to wear certain types of armor during battle and still cast spells, with some chance of failure.

Yes, this would be a nice addition, and a fitting one too, but I don't know how to do it without using scripts or affecting every armor for every other classes at the same time.
Still, if someone would find an implementable solution, this would be fine for F/M-s, or even for other mage types with more serious penalties.

[PolarBear]

Hmm, all elven chains allow casting, don't they? Maybe if you could make all armour behave like elven chains and add some spell casting penalty to them (like miscast or some similar spell). It could work, but not as a HLA. And probably this would involve reworking all the armours in the game. Too bad!


EDIT: Oh, I forgot clerics and druids. They would be affected aswell, would they.

Edited by PolarBear, 23 January 2005 - 03:09 AM.

[the bigg]

At first glance, that seems kinda of doable, but I'll be having that raving my nightmares, as I'd have basically to do again a Use Scrolls kind of thing. (plus something similar is in the G3 tweak pack)

[Littiz]

It wouldn't be enough: you'd need to modify all armors, then prevent casting through application of IDS-targeted EFF files.
Here comes the theorical problem, since you'd need an additional "shadow kit" for fighter mages, but -to my knowledge- you can't IDS-target a kit (through item abilities, I mean).
So you couldn't discriminate between fighter/mages who gained the HLA, and those who didn't :closedeyes:

Edited by Littiz, 24 January 2005 - 11:22 PM.