216 replies to this topic

[AG3]

Like the taint of Bhaal, this topic is destined to cause chaos and strife... How a game character can cause this much debate is beyond me.

.......

Well, not really.

[Blucher]

Like the taint of Bhaal, this topic is destined to cause chaos and strife... How a game character can cause this much debate is beyond me.

Imoen is an extraordinarily popular character. Someone on a.g.b-g did a quick test to see which character was mentioned by name the most. The top three, in this order, were Imoen, Minsc and Jaheira. Minsc was (relatively at any rate) close but Imoen had more mentions than the 2nd-4th combined. That doesn't necessarily prove anything of course, but it does seems to indicate that she inspires a fairly strong reaction. (All iirc that is.)

Bioware obviously designed her so that the player would care for her well-being. Maybe they did their job too well.

Well, not really.

Heh. Never underestimate the ability of on-line fans to obsess over something.

[Littiz]

Apologies again for my poor english.
Anyway surely people understand that the debate wasn't strictly related to Imoen,
while it was more related to attitudes and convivence.

[Blucher]

" a.g.b-g " What is this? And was it for bg1-ToB?

The usenet group alt.games.baldurs-gate. It covers all the BG games and expansions, as well as a bit of Torment, Icewind Dale and even some Neverwinter Nights. Probably the best place to talk about the games.

[AG3]

(AG3 @ Jan 31 2003, 08:18 PM)
Like the taint of Bhaal, this topic is destined to cause chaos and strife... How a game character can cause this much debate is beyond me.

(Littiz @ Feb 1 2003, 11:04 AM)
Anyway surely people understand that the debate wasn't strictly related to Imoen,
while it was more related to attitudes and convivence

Yes, but what I meant was that it is kinda incredible that a game character can START this much debate. By all means, I have been in a few debates myself that started as an Imoen discussion, then quickly turned into a sexual preference/tolerance argument. As Cybersquirt wrote earlier, the limitations of the written format causes a lot of slight misunderstandings and misinterpretations, which builds up, until the discussion rapidly escalates almost into a hate campaign where everybody start flinging insults at each other. I know very well myself how easily that happens (remembers Final Fantasy 8 "discussion" on GameFAQS Boards).

I guess it was more a slight amazement at the fact that everywhere on every board people talk about the concept of romancing Imoen, the topic turns into bashing like this one. Although the degree differs slightly from board to board.

But I fully understant that when people from several different nations discuss things in a language that is not everyones native one, misunderstandings happen.

I am Norwegian myself, and several times when I read and write on boards like this one, I have to whip out the Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary, to find out what exactly people are saying to me.
But unfortunately, I still misinterpret things people write.

[Unvoiced Anarchy]

Sorry my "unvoiced" friend but you're in error too.
Tolerance means tolerance, not silence.
Why on earth should I keep my likings for myself, when the rest of the
world cries out them, especially those who continually lament to be
discriminated????
Tolerance is just what *I* do, that is, acceptance of just about everything
(as long as it brings no harm to me or others).
And while I may say that *I* don't appreciate certain *things*, I don't say
I dislike even *people* who do appreciate them.
These are two different concepts, and actually the difference is pretty big.

I didn't direct the statement at your debate I directed it at your use of language. "littiz" my "friend."

Tolerance is a word that can not and should not be used in your debates.
It's definition has nothing to do with "acceptance of just about everything"

To tolorate is
1. to allow
2. to respect (others' beliefs, proctices, etc.) without sharing them
3. To put up with
4. to have tolorance for-

The current world view has taken tolorance and told everyone that it is the only way. That any other Point-Of-Veiw is wrong and shouldn't even be considered. Can we not see and for ourselfs make our own descisions.

[Littiz]

@AG3: I know the mechanism very well, but as I said, too often people accuse me ignorantly
when debating such arguments, even in real life. This is why I speak about "fashion", they
just need to hear a couple of "alarming words" to trigger their usual attacks.
And while my english isn't solid enough, the same can't be stated about my Italian.

@UA: You didn't teach me anything new with your lesson.
I've promoted points 1-2 of your list (4 is a recursive definition, isn't it) for the
whole debate, but in case you haven't noticed, *I* am the one whose inclinations are not
accepted or respected, in the end.
I don't know personally many homosexuals, thinking of it, only one.
He's a very good friend of my family, since 20 years, no less.
I don't know what he does in his private life, but surely I wouldn't like to know the details.
I don't feel "guilty" for seeing things this way, but I can't just remain silent after
hearing or reading comments like Cybersquirt's "bah!".
We'll be friendlier next time, is it ok Cybersquirt?

[Unvoiced Anarchy]

even in real life.

but this is real life.
just a different sort of medium

[Hendryk]

Anarchy is the true nature of all things. Monarchy, democracy, communism, all useless forms to control the human mind. But a mind cannot be control. It cannot be restrained. It has no boundaries. It has its will. Anarchy is the true nature of all things...

- Alex Battig

Wonder what ol' Alex would say if his printer were an anarchist, starting putting his own letters, words & phrases into the deathless prose. Bet Alex would change printers.

[Unvoiced Anarchy]

whatever I just like the quote

[AG3]

Yeah, I've read that somewhere too. But it might just be a rumor, I don't know.

But wouldn't that be kind of stupid? I mean, you worry for Imoen, you pay 20.000 (or 15.000) gold to get to her, and then she dies? Unless the idea was to kill her upon exiting Irenicus' Dungeon, and then the point of the game was simply to hunt down Irenicus for revenge.

I've also read about a Mod where Imoen can die in spellhold if you take too long to get her, or something like that. I don't know if it was a finished Mod or if it was under development/planning.

I agree with Cybersquirt. The fact that Imoen is such a central part of the game plot to begin with, but has no impact on the game whatsoever afterwards and almost nothing to say, seems kind of illogical.

Fortunately there are Mods out there to remedy that...

[ak404]

Problem is here most people are trying to put modern, scientific-worldly based morals in a middle-aged, fantasy world.

Having read this remark, I have to smirk a bit because the concept of homosexuality or homo-eroticism really didn't have a name or was considered a perversion until the 1800s or so, thanks to the Puritan movement in England. Homosexuality has been considered abnormal for maybe 200 years at best out of the entire history of humankind; homosexual relationships were not considered, er...queer in medieval societies, but there was an expectation of heterosexual marriages.

Hell, Shakespeare's romantic sonnets are all directed at a young man (see sonnet 20, especially), so the argument of "modern" ethics in a "medieval" setting goes both ways; the FR world is really a mix of both our world and their world. For example, slavery wasn't considered morally repulsive because there was a pecking order, and some people (who weren't even considered people) were just born for the job. In addition, Viconia's jabs at Valygar's sexuality are totally anachronistic if you wanted to keep everything in its "correct time frame," but that is neither here nor there.

Strangely enough, when talking to Rose in the bridge district with a female PC, she mentions not walking that side of the street, but when buying a whore from the Copper Coronet, the mistress gives you a guy right off the bat. Wacked.

[ak404]

{SPOILER} there is a Bhaalspawn RABBIT in ToB!

RABBIT!? A RABBIT!? *eyes bug out*

..... Mr. Bhaal wasn't very picky about his partners, was he? I think this also explains the rabbit in monty python, too...

*hides and aplogizes for the OTP*

No stranger than Satan's children being kittens. (sluggy freelance in-joke)

"Dude, what happened after you got drunk?"

"Don't ask."

"Why're you holding that rabbit?"

"DEFINITELY don't ask."

[Jurang]

I think the real problem for having a romance is to determine how far Imoen is the players sister.


Therefore, my argument:

1.Bhaal obviously had many children. The scene comes to mind when the PC meets Sarevok, Yaga Shura or anyone else of the bhaalspawn. Now, does either Imoen nor the PC really cries or feel sad when they kill their so-called brothers and sisters?

No, they don't. They just get along with it, and continue their quests. Thereofre, I can't understand the reactions of the people. (Sorry if I offend anybody here, I am open to argument). If the bhaalspawn were true siblings, why wouldn't the PC cry or complain about "always killing his brothers/sisters?

Now, to the matter of race, also called genetics. Yaga Shura, Imoen, Melissan, Balthazar and so on had all one predominatn human form. I will focus on Yaga Shura right now. Obviously, the genetics of hsi race was predominant - he doesn't look like a god. The only relevance to Bhaal was that he had soem extraordinary powers. I therefore think, that genetics isn't an issue at all - the extraordinary powers come, IMO  from the Bhaals protion in him.

And that's where it gets sticky. If there is no physical relation to anyone, what makes them brothers and sisters? The Bhaal essence? If so, the goody-goody player character should have had at least some qualms about killing fellow Bhaalspawn - which he didn't show. or there should have been at least a conversation liek "Do you think it is good to kill your brothers?) Therefore, since there is no genetic relation, why are all those considered Bhaalspawn? I believe it is mainly because of the Bhaal essence, the powers and their actions. You can't identifiy a Bhaalspawn by his/her/it looks, as shown in the intro of ToB, where they show people being arrested because others think they may be Bhaalspawn.


The definition of Bhaalspawn therefore may be just an ideological one. Does a part of Bhaal really make people related? The reactions of the PC or Imoen to the killing of Yaga Shura or else do not imply that.

Soemone said that the definition fo half-brother/sister mean that the people in question share a common parent. But do they really? Not in the genetic way, and since Bhaal didn't care much about his children and their upbringings, not in the ideological way either.


So, what makes Imoen and the PC related? Their common past. Yet, does a common past make people brother and sister? Is my neighbors daughter, who I now since my childhood, my sister? No, she isn't, and I would never think of her that way.

There is nothing that stands in the way of a romance, IMHO, and I would be more than happy to have an option to play it out.

I won't guarantee that I will play it out, but I argue for an option.



PS: I hope I haven't offended anyone. If I do, then I ask for forgiveness. If that is not enogh for you, just state it here and I will make a formal apology.


Jurang
-----------
"You know what the difference between demonms and kobolds is?
Demons are more generous."

[Kish]

If the bhaalspawn were true siblings, why wouldn't the PC cry or complain about "always killing his brothers/sisters?

What the PC feels is up to the player.

You can't identifiy a Bhaalspawn by his/her/it looks, as shown in the intro of ToB, where they show people being arrested because others think they may be Bhaalspawn.

...wha? Where?

There is nothing that stands in the way of a romance

There is. The whole "is Imoen the PC's sister" argument has been gone over again and again, and I don't think anyone's ever changed position on it even slightly, but even that is not, in my eyes, the most important issue. As I said above, what the PC feels is up to the player--if the PC wants to try to have a romance with his/her sibling, that's between the player and the character. (Just don't ask me to read game logs or fanfiction.)

What does matter to this mod, though, is that Imoen would never go for such a relationship. Whether the PC actually is her sibling or not, she certainly thinks of him (or her) as one, and it certainly matters to her. Mischaracterizing Imoen=Bad. It would wreck the mod if, in the mod, Imoen's speech patterns were suddenly replaced with Aerie's, or if she lost her sense of loyalty for no reason, or if she otherwise did something she would never do.

[Jurang]

[quote name='Kish' date='May 8 2003, 04:44 PM']
[quote]
There is.  The whole "is Imoen the PC's sister" argument has been gone over again and again, and I don't think anyone's ever changed position on it even slightly, but even that is not, in my eyes, the most important issue.  As I said above, what the PC feels is up to the player--if the PC wants to try to have a romance with his/her sibling, that's between the player and the character.  (Just don't ask me to read game logs or fanfiction.)

What does matter to this mod, though, is that Imoen would never go for such a relationship.  Whether the PC actually is her sibling or not, she certainly thinks of him (or her) as one, and it certainly matters to her.  Mischaracterizing Imoen=Bad.  It would wreck the mod if, in the mod, Imoen's speech patterns were suddenly replaced with Aerie's, or if she lost her sense of loyalty for no reason, or if she otherwise did something she would never do.[/quote] [/quote]
However, I don't get the message that she is supposed to be your sister. It may be because of faulty german translating again, but in the german version she never even says a word about it in SoA. And in ToB no one even addresses her so. Therefore, there is no direct proof that she's thinking that way, since she doesn't say so.

The other bhaalspawn are not introduced as sisters or brothers, either. Not even in the intro or outro. I believe therefore the issue will stay unclear.

I agree that mischaracterizing Imoen will be bad for the mod.

[qoute]imoen would never go for it[/quote] I believe it should be up to how the PC reacts, treats her and so on. If you'd have asked me if it would be possible for Jaheira to romance the PC, I would have thought that idea very unrealistic, not to say impossible. Therefore, I believe it should be up to the player's reactions.  



But, since I am not making the mod, and I do not have any power over the creators, I will agree with whatever they choose to do.