216 replies to this topic

[chevalier des Trois-Tours]

Well, while certainly against the biological side of biological incest, I am not decided in this matter. It's a typical moral issue. But again, what is moral? Certainly my answer wouldn't meet with the expectations of an average 10 INT 10 WIS citizen...

I don't say by this that the average LG/10/10 would really disapprove of the sole fact. Actually in mediaeval times incestuous intercourses sort of cemented family ties, especially in Dark Ages and far from the Pope. On some isolated island for example . But he would certainly speak loudly against such pratices.

I wouldn't. Even if I decided not to follow this path myself, I wouldn't blame anyone for doing so, my being LG. Well, in fact I couldn't condemn anyone for this even if charname and Imoen were biological half-siblings (no more than half - just the avatar impregnating two different women, I'm not a libertine). It doesn't really look outrageous to me in this particular case. Outrageous would be only the possibility of my own doing this... Well, but no point pondering the last variant - I've just recalled she's younger and from other source, so the woman were different. Still we can't be sure about the body Bhaal used...

As for the roleplay part, I don't quite agree this should be a slower progressing romance. It's a sister anyway. Some things are already obvious, the links between the two established. They're also closest friends possible and this really counts. In real life there are lot of things you do with non-romance friends of opposite sex that you don't quite do until until the romance is developing swiftly. For example the very emotional kiss on lips with Imoen sketched by Quitch is something classified as romance activity, but in fact goes with friends (XY-XY excl.). In Late Roman culture (esp. Eastern part) for example it had no less important meaning and almost the same conotation, but was also used when greeting members of opposite sex if emotional ties were (pretended/supposed to be) extremely strong. Emperors and their sisters often did this. But again, single persons and not within one sex.

I believe such tendencies and activities may well be employed in romance options for the mod. Starting from this, and then gradually deviating (well, this is kind of deviated sign of friendship anyway). The more PC & Imoen do, the more they allow themselves to do next time as borders have innate tendency to expand and so it works until it's clearly not pure brother to sister relationship. And they could even realise they have no qualms about this. It happened sometimes when people for example fell in love with twenty years younger/older step siblings they have hardly seen before. Here, because they technically are no siblings, the incest feeling is even weaker and could easily be overcome this way.

[LSWSjr]

Hail to Yukarifan, an individual of my own line of thinking.

Your idea is how I used to script P&P AD&D/Module Imoen romances, as I have stated before, I never knew people could replicate my own ideas so scarply, then again maybe not.

What you suggested is one of the better romance concept posts on this forum, and if I didn't already have a gaggle of think tanks around me with my way of concieving plots, I'd hire you... maybe.

Good show.

LSWSjr of LSWSjr Publications OZ Mark 2, in Australia signing off

[Yukarifan]

One other thing that would fit in perfectly for the relationship/romance would be Imoen developing Baalspawn powers (including the Slayer change). The best trigger for this could be the PC being seriously wounded/near death (scaring the hell out of everyone around her, most notably Imoen herself.) How you help her deal with this new aspect of herself,the increasing influence of the Baal-taint and how to resist the Slayer-change can add as much depth as a growing romance.

To flesh out this further, Imoen could probably be subject to spontaneous Slayer-changes (such as the Yaga-Shura battle with the endless attacker spawns or other "hopeless" battles). Just try to imagine someone like Imoen trying to deal with the rising viciousness that is slowly devouring her soul, the fear of losing herself and possibly having to face her companions (along with her half-sister/possible lover).Throw in a few high intensity nightmares for effect. At this point, a nearly hysterical (possibly suicidal) Imoen would need you more than ever.

One possible salvation(and new add-on quest) for her could be the search for a spell/ritual,etc that could safely remove the baal-taint from someone's soul (making them an ordinarly mortal (naturally,you would not be able to use it). Though it could disable a potential enemy, it also could mean salvation for Imoen and would bring you even closer.Just think of how the vampire quest affected your relationship with Jaheira,Aerie-chan,etc. Imagine what this would do for you and Imoen.

As for the choice for godhood, would Imoen also be given the choice (joining you as a god/mortal, or chosing her own path ["Hey...someone has to look after you bro/sis"]

[LSWSjr]

One other thing that would fit in perfectly for the relationship/romance would be Imoen developing Baalspawn powers (including the Slayer change).

To flesh out this further, Imoen could probably be subject to spontaneous Slayer-changes.

Throw in a few high intensity nightmares for effect.

One possible salvation(and new add-on quest) for her could be the search for a spell/ritual,etc that could safely remove the baal-taint from someone's soul (making them an ordinarly mortal (naturally,you would not be able to use it). Though it could disable a potential enemy, it also could mean salvation for Imoen and would bring you even closer.

As for the choice for godhood, would Imoen also be given the choice (joining you as a god/mortal, or chosing her own path ["Hey...someone has to look after you bro/sis"]

Yukarifan, why after all the good you had originally done, did you choose to let your ideas slip..?

For the first point, Imoen does develop Bhaalspawn abilities over the timespace of the Throne of Bhaal Expansion, and with the inclusion of The Ascension module, Imoen does become the Slayer and if I remember correctly, has a few bad dreams (although not shown on screen) either way.

Secondly, she loses her Bhaal taint at the end of ToB anyway, so why remove it, if it was a burden that she was able to carry to the end anyway?
For Imoen the taint is a big thing, but its not like when other Romance NPCs got vamped, as Imoen is not going to go all homocidal on you. Although if you were to make her able to change into the avatar of Bhaal prior to or without The Ascension, the above would be plausable.

Thirdly the possibility of Imoen herself becoming a god, are not very likely> Primarily because their would not be enough energy to ascend both the PC and herself. This would also be somewhat out of charecter for Imoen as she disliked the taint of Bhaal within her, and if she and the PC were in a more intimate relationship, couldn't she simply try to ground the PC to herself?
Though it should be noted that after becoming a god, the PC could turn her in the an avatar servant of his/her rule.

Well if that not up to my usuall lenght of a post, I thought I was going soft of late, oh well.

LSWSjr of LSWSjr Publications OZ Mark 2, in Australia signing off

[Yukarifan]

One of my less inspired ideas (the problem of coming up with too many of them at once and throwing out a few to see what happens,along with the side effects of working retail during the holliday season) this one came from the exchange between Imoen and Aerie about the possibility of a slayer-change). I agree that the previous one was alot better.(hell, having a quest that could restore Aerie's wings would be better than this recent post) <_<

[Quitch]

Secondly, she loses her Bhaal taint at the end of ToB anyway, so why remove it, if it was a burden that she was able to carry to the end anyway?

How would Imoen know this?

[LSWSjr]

Secondly, she loses her Bhaal taint at the end of ToB anyway, so why remove it, if it was a burden that she was able to carry to the end anyway?

How would Imoen know this?

The thing is, she doesn't know how she can carry this burden. But she has the PC for support, and thus there are the Imoen conversations in ToB, wherein she talks at length with the PC about her worries and the taint.

LSWSjr of LSWSjr Publications OZ Mark 2, in Australia signing off

[Quitch]

What if the player didn't offer that support?

[LSWSjr]

What if the player didn't offer that support?

Well the choice was either the Protagonist offered support or said things like soon you'll be killing isn't that great (evil option).

I don't directly remember any choice to simply shut her up, so I'm guessing that support or at least some words of (good/bad) advise were given.

If this is not the case I apologise, and renounce the above.

How will you deal with this issue of support Quitch?

LSWSjr of LSWSjr Publications OZ Mark 2, in Australia signing off

[Quitch]

Imoen looks to you for some support in Return to Windspear. Writing the Imoen section there is what made me decide to do this mod. RtW will probably give you a good idea of the sort of range I intend to give you.

Allow me to use the first dialogue as an example:

Imoen comes to you, tearful, looking for help, saying she is suffering the same pain as she did in the dungeon of Irenicus. You are can offer words of comfort, suggest she is being a burden, or even strike her.

Offering words of comfort would allow you to try and dig deeper, allow you to attempt to find what is causing it all. You'll be able to go over her problems and attempt to sort them out and enjoy her gratitude. She treats you like a brother/sister, not another memeber of the party.

Suggest she is a burden and perhaps she'll be obviously upset, but it won't stop her coming back to you, the only support she has.

Strike her and she'll be shocked, but your blood means it is not entirely unexpected. Even though it was deliberate, you can try and pretend that something came over you, that you didn't mean to strike her. It may even be possible to talk her through her problems, and still get away with clouting her across the face. Make her entirely reliant on you, while still abusing her.

While the Imoen path in Return to Windspear is linear, with a few variables ticking away in the background kicking in towards the end, it is an indication of the range of things I want you to be able to do. It's certainly not a case of picking one and getting the next page, while pick the other and end the dialogue. The second chat with Imoen has three or four completely different endings, and a few minor variations on those depending on stats.

[LSWSjr]

Imoen comes to you, tearful, looking for help, saying she is suffering the same pain as she did in the dungeon of Irenicus. You are can offer words of comfort, suggest she is being a burden, or even strike her.

So in this instance how far will the Irenicus viewpoint go and will there be any crossovers to Bodhi based issues?

Also would she actually say dialogue like "I feel like I did just like in Irenicus' dungeon" or something of the same affect because I see such a direct mention of Irenicus' former abode to be to much like her saying "I'm gonna Detect Traps/Hide In Shadow/Pick Pocket now".

It would be better written like "I feel bad/horrible/other, it's so painful just like it was when we first wound up locked in mean ol' Irenicus' place".

Which perspective will you take?

I also agree with your other writting on the issue of support and although I will never admit it (being the professional young publisher I am), your skill has been proven to go at exceeding my own.

LSWSjr of LSWSjr Publications OZ Mark 2, in Australia signing off

[Littiz]

I certainly don't feel like running through this debate about Imoen AGAIN, maybe you could just
read the thread "Imoen's sexuality". It's a flaming thread, be warned.

as are ALL of us when we get past societal claims of morality and right or wrong... bah.

You may only speak for yourself. While I have nothing against people who are homosexual,
being that a personal characteristic as many others, I *myself* couldn't ever love
another man beyond friendship.
It's written in *my* DNA and in my past life, I simply can't feel sexual attraction for a man.
I don't feel the need to get past anything, nor to follow the impositions of people who think
they can force new Truths everytime fashion changes
(for ancient greeks and romans homosexuality was basically a "good" thing, in medieval times
homosexuals were burned, now homosexuality is "good" again and some dare to say that ALL should
be homosexual!! People are fun..)

[Littiz]

Uhm, you subtly suggested that I was intollerant or something..
Actually, I *am* intollerant, with people who try to classify my positions in a couple
of bad-sounding categories (racist! intollerant! bigot!), and always fail, having not
even understood the simple truths that lie behind my words.
Anyway, nothing personal.

About Imoen, I didn't provide a "valid answer", 'cause as I've said it's a matter
of preference.
I admit I've been a bit exagerated ( ), but basically, I only said that in my idea
of the Imoen character, she's hetro.
Now, we have only to wait to see how this mod will portray her...

[Littiz]

While I'm not subtle, and (try to) say things the way they are.
I *hate* all that's politically correct, as much as I hate politics.
I'm often taken the wrong way (happened already in these forums, happens
always in real life), this is why the nerve is more than ready to react.
Yet you can bet I am a friendlier person than many who just appear so.
Peace

So since it's just a preference or a feeling you get, you'd have nothing to refute Imoen being lesbian?

Nothing but statistics...

Either case, I hope she won't be a pervert!!! (now all the perverts out
there will take offence )

[Littiz]

Ok, you'll have a deeper answer, I was simply trying to avoid problems again with
people who get easily offended. I fear it'll happen again.

First, statistics. We're not talking about commercial statistics, but about how life
works and propagates itself. It is so since eras.
Now, we are speaking about a fantasy world indeed, but those beings are still called
"humans". Of course you can imagine whatever you want, but as far as literature goes,
they are meant to be exactly like us, except that they CAN use magic.
Yet, in BG2 world people cannot afford a Resurrection spell, so I assume they can't even
afford a cloning spell or something like that.
Reproduction works the "trivial" way.
So I feel comfortable in applying the same statistics to this fantasy world.
Take LotR, which is the inspirer of every fantasy work.
There things are pretty straight.
Even Ents (!) have (had) their female counterparts.
You never read of homosexuals or anything (excluding Sam maybe and anyway he marries
Rosie in the end).
I don't think this kind of issue (homosexuality) is never taken into account in fantasy
works of any kind.

But things are even narrower in BG2 world.
Basically it is a Medieval setting, pre-gun powder times.
Common people are simple, they have beliefs and prejudices, and the ones who are not
liked by the crowd are easily burned (Viconia is an example).
I can hardly see it as an open society where one speaks freely of his/her uncommon
sexual orientation.
In truth, I see it as the opposite (after all, homosexuals *were* burned in Mediaval times).
So, while homosexuals may exist, they most likely are willing to keep it all secret.
Of course, I don't deny that there are differences between these worlds (the role of religion
being the most important), but the background is pretty much the same.

Anyway, the real point is that, in my experience, fantasy works don't take the issue
into account (as I've already said), so it's not even a matter of statistics or culture.
All in all I think that the open (or "spoken") presence of homosexuals could insert a foreign
element in the environment which would alter the "feel" of it.
That's bearable, per se (or needed, if you want to be politically correct ), but Imoen
is one of the main characters and that would be a too arbitrary choice, IMHO.

[Gospel]

I don't thinkies it's really a medieval setting, Littiz sir :D Inspired, maybe... but after adding Kara-Tur, Chult, and bathing, twaditionalish "Medieval" not weally fit, no no's! :D

There are knights and wizards, yiss.. but also monks( Who CAN be Westernish... but you didn't see [m]any of them in King Arthur guy world, yiss? :D )

So homosexuality wouldn't be foreign at all, methinks :) It's not really an exclusiveish modern-day thing, nopies... I think the issueies has been avoided in BG2 because... well, just look at some peoples' reaction to the AD&D guide to sex thing, in Forgotten Wars Project's General Revelry section :)

As for Immy kitty being homosexual/bi-ish.... rrr :) Not much, originally, to work withs? ?:D So why nots! :) That's what me thinks, at least... it would be a not-impossible view of her sexualityish... and OOCishly, lady cat NPCs wouldn't err... "Missies out ?:)" on a potential-but-maybe-not-thewe womance, yiss :D

Err... but I think everything here is assuming that she would? ?:D Err... meow! :D