216 replies to this topic

[Gospel]

No, Userunfriendly sir... no :'(

[The Wise Owl]

that dreams a little...sick......also.

[Userunfriendly]

ok, maybe the saverok weeping was a bit overdone,

so,

"and of the party, only saverok understands, and supports them, and he thinks of tomiko, his only true love, and he weeps too...."

gets changed to

he sits in silence, his mind wandering to tomiko his one true love...

sorry gospel, its sad, and very unhappy, but its actually got a happy ending, really....

i mean the human condition is such that each and everyone of us who is alive, never ever finds one person who would understand us completely, never ever finds a person who could love us unconditionally, and never ever finds someone who can trust us completely, thats just how life is....

but the pc and imoen can totally trust each other, and totally love each other and understand each other, and it took them all of their lives to realize heaven was as far away from each other as the next bedroll over....

so the ending would have the entire party realize what exactly is before them, and what it was exactly they reviled and was repulsed by.....

perfect love...perfect happyness....heaven....

see??? its not only a happy ending, its a heartbreakingly happy ending....

sorry....

[Userunfriendly]

"that dreams a little...sick......also. "

no more so than the 3rd bhaalspawn dream???

anyway, these are quite simply idea suggestions for quitchy, who is the author of the mod after all, and i was merely suggesting some ideas that he can use as inspiration or ignore as he pleases....

but i think i have proposed a way to have a imoen romance option in his relationship mod, and still be consistant with his original vision of imoen as the pc's kid sister....

a much sadder and painfilled ending than the original bioware endings, except maybe viccy....but the player would always have the option of not choosing to romance imoen...

[Gospel]

i mean the human condition is such that each and everyone of us who is alive, never ever finds one person who would understand us completely, never ever finds a person who could love us unconditionally, and never ever finds someone who can trust us completely, thats just how life is....

That's rubbish :(

[Userunfriendly]

only pets love us unconditionally, only pets trust us unconditionally, and no one ever understands us completely....

and even if someone is lucky enough to find a person who loves us, completely, there are always conditions, like "i love you , so you better love me..."

all relationships always involve, i will do this for you, if you do this for me.....

cynical, arent i???

[Userunfriendly]

well..yeah, gospel, i personally agree thats rubbish....

but what i was trying to do was to gell and develop some ideas i am offering to quitch as a possible story plot....

pc: keldy, if maria stopped loving you, would you love her? i mean when you found out about her and that lordling, your rage was very nearly out of control...i thought i'd have to use a power word stun on you...

keldy: yes, it was...i never thought when we were married that love can turn so quickly to anger...thank you, my friend for pulling me back from the abyss....we have a ways to go, after this quest, for us to earn each others trust and love again...

pc: thats the crux...if i did something monstrous, or if immie did something cruel, we know the other would love us beyond reason, beyond even sanity....we are linked with ties that defy mortal comprehension, and now you begin to see why i broke things off with (love interest)...that relationship could never hope to compete....there is simply no room in our hearts for anyone else...

keldy: my friend, i reacted badly and with prejudice when i found out about you and imoen, your....your....i have it, your soul companion.....

also, i think that the original event that triggers the breaking off the current relationship with the current romance could be worked better....

the pc weeps over yaga shura's body, and the current romance asks why do you weep over such a monster, such a desecration over humanity....

pc: slap!!!

jahiera: what the hells!!! why did you strike me, charname???

pc: because this monster is my brother, and if things had been different he could have been a good brother, and i have had to kill another brother...

jahiera: but it was the taint, all bhaal spawn have the taint of sin in them, it drives them mad...they cannot be trusted, they cannot be other than evil...

pc: is that what you really think of me?? and i thought you loved me...

pc walks away, and only silence fills the campsite..

i mean this whole thread started with the idea that if the pc and imoen had a relationship....and quite frankly, i have to agree with another post quitch had made somewhere, that it would have to be events and feelings of such a traumatic nature the whole storyline and the existing relationships would have to be completely torn down and a new structure built, and for sure it would have to be a tragic story, full of some very disturbing and hard stuff...

but i really think this could be a completely intense and challenging writing, and i offer this plot outline as a suggestion and as usual quitchy can either use any portion of it, or reject all of it...

what do you guys think??? not about some of the views, and i refuse to divulge which views are mine in reality, and which views i wrote as adding to the plot.....

but is the basic story outline interesting and something you would like to see done? yes, i lifted elements from aescalus (? spelling, you know, the tragic greek playwrite who wrote oedipus rex and medea) in this...

but if this gets written, it could add a depth of complexity and tragety to the bg2 game....

relationship mods rule!!!

[Gospel]

only pets love us unconditionally, only pets trust us unconditionally, and no one ever understands us completely....

and even if someone is lucky enough to find a person who loves us, completely, there are always conditions, like "i love you , so you better love me..."

all relationships always involve, i will do this for you, if you do this for me.....

I repeat, that is rubbish :(

[Gospel]

the pc weeps over yaga shura's body, and the current romance asks why do you weep over such a monster, such a desecration over humanity....

pc: slap!!!

jahiera: what the hells!!! why did you strike me, charname???

pc: because this monster is my brother, and if things had been different he could have been a good brother, and i have had to kill another brother...

jahiera: but it was the taint, all bhaal spawn have the taint of sin in them, it drives them mad...they cannot be trusted, they cannot be other than evil...

pc: is that what you really think of me?? and i thought you loved me...

pc walks away, and only silence fills the campsite..

... A PC like that is horrid :(

[Ereion]

the pc weeps over yaga shura's body, and the current romance asks why do you weep over such a monster, such a desecration over humanity....

pc: slap!!!

jahiera: what the hells!!! why did you strike me, charname???

pc: because this monster is my brother, and if things had been different he could have been a good brother, and i have had to kill another brother...

jahiera: but it was the taint, all bhaal spawn have the taint of sin in them, it drives them mad...they cannot be trusted, they cannot be other than evil...

pc: is that what you really think of me??  and i thought you loved me...

pc walks away, and only silence fills the campsite..

... A PC like that is horrid

I agree with Gospel. It seems that some of the pc's companions don't really consider a good PC a bhall spawn because of how the PC would act the opposite of what most other bhall spawn do and begin to kill and other evil things. And if the PC would not be able to forgive Jaheira for a slip up like that than the PC never loved her either. So I would think that if you could romance Imoen it would have to be that the PC would not have had a romance with any of the others.

[Kish]

Truly, I think that example was a severe mischarterization of Jaheira from...actually, from the beginning. The only love interest who would be puzzled by CharName weeping over the body of a sibling would be Viconia, and that's because she's likely killed more of her own siblings than CharName anyway.

Thankfully, no NPC in the game is delusional enough to pretend CharName is not a Bhaalspawn.

[LSWSjr]

Userunfriendly what you stated as an Imoen romance timeline, is something I have done before for Pen-N-Paper and would never like to see such a thing return.

It kills off all the bonds formed between the party over their time between Baldur's Gate to Shadows of Amn (Minsc, Jahiera, Viconia & Edwin) and the bonds from Shadows of Amn to Throne of Bhall (All minus aforementioned).

In the end the Protagonist would be left facing the final battles armed with only Imoen and maybe Sarevok at your side. Such a thing would be the end of the group.

Although I don't see how it could cause such a fuss, Edwin, Korgan, Evil Viconia, Evil Sereveok, Sola, Valen, Tasha, Minsc, Valygar and Jan would not be so judgemental of such a thing.

Only Anomen, Kelsey, Good Viconia, Good Sarevok, Keldron, Jaheira and Cernd would truely care about such a thing.

Nalia and Aerie's views are hard to determine though.

Lord of the Purrfect People "Gospel" is right, some of your views and ideas on this matter (but usually not elsewhere) are rubbish, and the relationship should not enter another degree of depression. This romance could be worked using your ideas, but no way should the group turn on each other in a mass of infighting, for they share such strong bonds.

Aerie as said before is a hard one to pick on her views of the situation, she loves the Protagonist more strongly than any other NPC, Bioware made or otherwise and in some cases stronger than Imoen does. She would be at the Protagonist's side at Yaga's death, she also felt strongly about the deaths caused at the fall there. She would be someone crying over the dead dog or cat, so to have that part of your idea with the Protagonist and Aerie fighting over that would be impossible.

As the person here who has probably written the most Imoen events and relationships for both Pen-N-Paper and Modules, I say this:

"Your Idea Is Valid And Is Workable But Will Only End In Some Depressing States And Conflicts Will Arise Constanly"

LSWSjr of LSWSjr Publications, Australia signing off.

[Userunfriendly]

well, i believe quitch said something to the effect imoen would be romanceable only if some traumatic event happens....like the pc making the choice between party and imoen.....

and like i said, it would be the users choice to either dump the party or romance imoen...

[Spideyknight]

"Lovely passive voice--"is ignored","is assumed". You are presenting your opinion as if it were a fact"

It's active voice, the exact opposite of what you said, "was ignored", "was assumed" would be passive voice. Anytime you have "is" you can be 99% sure that it's active voice. The opposite for the word "was", 99% of the time "was" is passive.

I believe a poster further up on page 3, hit the nail on the head. Your opinions are based off the morals you have in reality, now. When you cast those morals into BG2 you are severing the bonds of Roleplay. BG2 isn't 2002. Incest, slavery, prostitution, piratering, drugs, theivery, greed, etc...all commonplace. Now we have laws and organizations that fight most of these things. In BG2 they happen readily and largely without interference.

You CAN'T know how Imoen thinks, if you don't put yourself in her environment. You can't say, "This is how Imoen would react," and not put yourself in her position. Imoen's environments, her past, her linege, and the unspeakable horrors that have happened to her cast a certain unknown. To say that Imoen would be "repulsed" or "in horror" is an assumption. Unlike your previous mistake of calling phrases passive voice when they're active, I can't say your opinion is 100% wrong. I do think it is an opinion built on faulty logic and set in a time that is not relative to the time and setting of BG2.

Even in today's times certain tramatic situations could bring the PC and Imoen together. Even in a time when incest is illegal and considered revolting. In BG2's time incest probably happen moreso than you might think. Also incest is to strong a word, since the PC and Imoen are only minorly related if at all. Even that is subject to conjecture.

Is a relationship between the PC and Imoen possible? Yes. Is it immoral(in BG2's time setting)? No.

Also tell the "There's already one romance mod out there." to JC. There's already a Nalia romance out, but JC wants to put his own twist or style on it. For that I applaud him. I haven't played the current Imoen romance yet(I'm about to after I get all this crap installed ) but I know Quitch's writing and IMHO it's good. It's practically a sure fire bet that this Imoen Relationship no matter if it includes romance or not is going to be good and I wait patiently.

[Kish]

It's active voice, the exact opposite of what you said, "was ignored", "was assumed" would be passive voice.

That's a shift in tense, not in voice. Active voice would be, "I assume," or, "I ignore."

Now you are assuming that BG2 mirrors some time and place on medieval Earth. This is an insupportable assumption. The "time" you're most likely thinking of--medieval Europe--certainly did not have female magistrates, clergy, or wizards.

[alustriel]

@Spideyknight -- What basis are you using for your assumptions that incest is common-place in the Realms? Did you get this from the Official manuals or are you just *assuming* it is for some other reason? Things such as slavery will occur in ANY society; criminal organizations, ditto; incest, of course, especially in more ancient societies where incest was used to keep the royal throne within one bloodline. In this sense, it's only normal within *that society*. I would be interested to see if you could find an exact reference to incest being common within the confines of the BG series of games.

[Gospel]

Grrr :(

I don't think incest and slavery should be lumped togethew :(

[Spideyknight]

Kish tense and voice can be used in the same phrase or statement. Those statements(the ones above) are more active than passive.

You assume that I assume. I never said anything about the medievil times, though I will admit that the BG2 timeframe is more similar to middle ages than to the year 2002.

Incest is rarely mentioned in D&D at all. Few are the campaigns that even bear mention to it in the manual, let alone anything else. So could I find official info to support my claim? Probably not. Could you find official info to refute it? Probably not. It is rarely mentioned. Gospel is correct, I shouldn't have lumped them all together. By commonplace I didn't really mean it happened constantly, every single day to hundreds of people across the planes. What I meant is that in nobel families, royalties(be they elf, human, etc..), probably some amongst the Balor(I mean the whole plane that I never seem to be able to spell correctly) and Tannar'i and likely amongst the various deities, be they lesser or otherwise you could probably find quite a bit of incest. Commonplace was likely not the best of words, but I doubt incest is extremely rare.

Certainly greed, scandel, corruption happen in these times, I never said it didn't, we have various institutions that are "supposed to" keep it to a minimum though whether they work or not is certainly a different debate.

You are somewhat correct though there are institutions in BG2 that "try" and keep those things in check, but the Thieves Guild is one of the largest powers in BG2, those people can only do so much to curb their activities. So it's more than likely that a majority of Thieves Guild business slips under the watchful eye and goes unchecked. Even with all of our modern institutions I bet slavery, theivery and other unscrupulous acts are still practiced, though probably with a different frequenc than in BG2.

All this is speculation though, none of us can truly, with 100% accuracy, know what goes on in Faerun. All I'm saying is that it is highly likely that incest is viewed very differently in Faerun, though that would have to be something WotC would have to think about, and it's probably a subject they don't really want to discuss indepth in their "Universe."

As I've said before though, Imoen and the PC only share the taint, a divine essence and if a diety mates with another deity their offspring isn't going to be messed up, he's going to be a god, and probably pretty near perfect. Also even that really doesn't matter, at the end of BG2 you can get rid of the taint, now what do you and Imoen share? Nothing genetic or divine, just a love for one another, just like any other couple.

The semantics of it can be argued all day, all night and forever, people are so deeply entrenched in their morals though it's not likely either side gets any headway. I think your base that a relationship between the PC and Imoen is "immoral" or "gross" or "repulsive" etc... is incorrect and faulty. You probably think the same thing about my assertion that a relationship between the two is perfectly fine. I'm a pretty relaxed person though and if two people only slightly related want to love each other, let them. Who am I to judge?

[Kiki]

Kish tense and voice can be used in the same phrase or statement. Those statements(the ones above) are more active than passive.

Kish is correct. The active voice indicates that the subject is taking action; e.g., I assume, I assumed. The passive voice indicates that the subject is being acted upon; e.g., it is assumed, it was assumed. When you see the past participle of a verb combined with some conjugation of the verb "be," you've got yourself a sentence in the passive voice.

A sentence always has a tense and a voice, but they are unrelated.

[Loké]

As you debate the relative merits of Mirrabbo's Imoen Romance, and plead for a Quitch Imoen Romance, just remember...

Kelsey got there fiiiiiiiiiiiirst! Kelsey got there fiiiiiiiiiiirst!

*wipes blood off sword*

mmmmm... i wouldn't say *thaaat*.....