Perhaps not, but i can imagine a scenario where Imoen is teasing you just like she used to tease you since you were children. Only this time, when she looks into your eyes, she suddenly realizes that you are NOT children anymore, and the light that shines in your eyes when you look at her is very, very different from that of an older brother...
Why Imoen should be romanceable
Started by Renmauzo, Oct 14 2002 08:45 PM
216 replies to this topic
#162
Loch27
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Posted 17 August 2003 - 01:44 PM
Any PC? Hmm, more often than not I play a male, and good aligned as well, so I'm basing my "IN love" statement on the conversations I get with that sort of player.
That said, from that view I'd guess any race would have some chance. Although she might laugh and tease you a bit if you're a gnome and trying to be oh-so-smooth. Obviously, the higher the charisma, the better the chance. Gah! Imoen and the gnome, great, I'm NEVER gonna get that picture outta my mind now.*shudder* Ok, maybe not any race, the more humanish the better, though I doubt elves would have much trouble. Then again, I'm not Quitch, she's the one defining the character.
As for alignment, I can't really see her falling for an evil moustachio twirling Edwin wannabe. Maybe not even a Lawful. Chaotic and Neutral goods and neutrals would do though. Of course, thats just my opinion. I always thought Bioware should've defined her character more.
That said, from that view I'd guess any race would have some chance. Although she might laugh and tease you a bit if you're a gnome and trying to be oh-so-smooth. Obviously, the higher the charisma, the better the chance. Gah! Imoen and the gnome, great, I'm NEVER gonna get that picture outta my mind now.*shudder* Ok, maybe not any race, the more humanish the better, though I doubt elves would have much trouble. Then again, I'm not Quitch, she's the one defining the character.
As for alignment, I can't really see her falling for an evil moustachio twirling Edwin wannabe. Maybe not even a Lawful. Chaotic and Neutral goods and neutrals would do though. Of course, thats just my opinion. I always thought Bioware should've defined her character more.
#163
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Posted 17 August 2003 - 03:16 PM
I think we are forgetting something here. Imoen has been with you since childhood. She grew up with you, and was obviously very close to you, since she was willing to give up permanently the safety of Candlekeep to help you after Gorion was slain.
That, to me, is a pretty clear indication that she loves you no matter your age, sex, race, alignment, color preference. Now, whether or not that love is romantic or familial is a whole other question.
Some people say: but humans can't love icky critters like gnomes and half-orcs! I say that attitude is shallow, superficial, and frankly, disturbing. What if your loved one contracted a disease and became repulsive? Will you stop loving him or her? Conversely, does that mean midgets, quadraplegics, people with scarred faces, etc, are not deserving of love?
Others say... Imoen can't love someone who's eeeeeeeeeeeevil! And what, exactly, is evil? Caramon loves Raistlin, and Caramon is good while Raistlin is thoroughly evil. There's no big neon sign on evil people's heads that says: HI! I'M EVIL!
Instead, there are people who are willing to kill, lie, steal and cheat to get their way in life. Imoen might be disgusted by the PC killing children for fun, or if the PC constantly treated her like dirt.
However, if the PC was ambitious, remorseless, manipulative and ruthless, but always treated Imoen with respect and tenderness, and if Imoen never saw the "consequences" of the PC's ambitions, why would Imoen love him any less?
That, to me, is a pretty clear indication that she loves you no matter your age, sex, race, alignment, color preference. Now, whether or not that love is romantic or familial is a whole other question.
Some people say: but humans can't love icky critters like gnomes and half-orcs! I say that attitude is shallow, superficial, and frankly, disturbing. What if your loved one contracted a disease and became repulsive? Will you stop loving him or her? Conversely, does that mean midgets, quadraplegics, people with scarred faces, etc, are not deserving of love?
Others say... Imoen can't love someone who's eeeeeeeeeeeevil! And what, exactly, is evil? Caramon loves Raistlin, and Caramon is good while Raistlin is thoroughly evil. There's no big neon sign on evil people's heads that says: HI! I'M EVIL!
Instead, there are people who are willing to kill, lie, steal and cheat to get their way in life. Imoen might be disgusted by the PC killing children for fun, or if the PC constantly treated her like dirt.
However, if the PC was ambitious, remorseless, manipulative and ruthless, but always treated Imoen with respect and tenderness, and if Imoen never saw the "consequences" of the PC's ambitions, why would Imoen love him any less?
#164
Derrain
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Posted 17 August 2003 - 09:49 PM
Others say... Imoen can't love someone who's eeeeeeeeeeeevil! And what, exactly, is evil? Caramon loves Raistlin, and Caramon is good while Raistlin is thoroughly evil. There's no big neon sign on evil people's heads that says: HI! I'M EVIL!
and
However, if the PC was ambitious, remorseless, manipulative and ruthless, but always treated Imoen with respect and tenderness, and if Imoen never saw the "consequences" of the PC's ambitions, why would Imoen love him any less?
The problem is that there really isn't any mechanism for a PC to do evil in quite the manner that Raistlin did. In the various Baldur's Gate games the only real evil options there are tend to be pretty blatent. Hmmm, steal the deed to Garren Windspear's land and give it to Firekraag. Give the all powerful artifact to the beholder. Poison ALL the druids to make sure you get rid of Faldorn. Let Hendak rot in slavery. The closest thing I can think of to the Raistlin path is the quest around Kangaxx... restore the evil lich in order to gain its power for yourself. But the game doesn't recognize that as evil and there are no negative effects from possessing an evil artifact like the Ring of Gaxx to make it at all questionable. Heck, my *paladin* character has a Ring of Gaxx.
The only "evil" actions which the game recognizes as such would be the sort which I don't think the PC could hide, especially from someone as perceptive and inquisitive as Imoen... maybe this is something else we should beg for in the mod.
As to the how the PC would go about creating a romantic relationship between Imoen and himself... personally I don't really think its something he could "make her feel." Just doing stuff for Imoen isn't going to be enough in my mind. People can appreciate others doing things for them, but they tend to develop the strongest emotions when they are doing things in return as well. Personally I think it would have to be slow, and I think that Imoen would have to have time to consider CHARNAME in the "what would I think if he weren't my brother?" perspective. She would have to feel as though CHARNAME needed her to be more than a sister figure. Most likely for emotional support. (The PC would have to come across as "human" rather than merely being the all powerful child of Bhaal who fights the taint, never loses, stands for all that is good and right despite the forces of Fate itself which are aligned against him, and never feels a moments insecurity). While there could be some playfulness and humor in their behavior towards one another the idea of humorous situations with sexual overtones just wouldn't work in actually pushing the relationship in the romantic direction. Imoen might think they were funny, but she wouldn't take them seriously in my opinion. Any romance would have to be built on deeper emotional events which have the potential to cause emotional scars in the characters involved. Finally there would probably need to be something to justify in her mind the idea that CHARNAME is not in fact a "brother" in the traditional sense of the word.
Then once you did get the relationship to that point there would still be all sorts of issues... certainly not all the other NPC's in the game would approve. What would Imoen and the playercharacter think of their oppinion? Would it be possible to convince them to see things from the PC's / Imoen's perspective? Would the emotional strain of their initial and potentially permanent disapproval be enough to tear the relationship apart? Etc.
I must say that if the mod does in fact include this option with all of these considerations I would be very interested in playing it through. Like others who have mentioned it I was never that fond of the switch Imoen's background and character did between BG1 and BG2. But in any case, anything that makes the characters in the game seem more alive is a good thing... except in regards to my sleep schedule. Heh. So I plan on playing it through regardless of the romancability option.
#165
Jinnai
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Bye Sanzo! You'll play with me again next time?
Posted 18 August 2003 - 12:45 AM
I know its off topic, but i just haveto respon.Others say... Imoen can't love someone who's eeeeeeeeeeeevil! And what, exactly, is evil? Caramon loves Raistlin, and Caramon is good while Raistlin is thoroughly evil. There's no big neon sign on evil people's heads that says: HI! I'M EVIL!
Raistlin isn't thoroughly evil. There are "redeeming" qualities in him, even while he lived. He helped those who were disadvantaged, because they weren't smart enough, weaker than others, etc. He didn't go out his way, but he did make a point to give them some minor aid.
He also did care about his brother a lot and his nephew. As well he was in love with high prestess...too long since i read the books to remember her name...
Even in his darkest days when he tried to become a god, he had some good in him.
#166
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Posted 18 August 2003 - 02:23 AM
I need to make sure we're of the same page here, 'cause I'm kinda disappointed you said that and your example confused me to the point that I'm now wondering if we read the same thing the same way (we probably did and I just need better drugs but I'm gonna ask anyway)Chances of Imoen landing in your arms, looking deep into your eyes and suddenly realising she loves you in a mod written by myself: zero. I can't stand accidental situations with sexual overtones, they're like detective programs where the whole crime is solved because someone happens to utter a phrase which has nothing to do with anything, yet allows the detective to realise how it was all done.
my interpretation of what was being said by PK (or at least the part I was thinking of): a romance as more a sit-com (situational comedy) style thing; something light hearted and fun.. not melodramatic and lusty [we've got one of those already B) ]. If there were a 'sudden realization' she would then play it off in some funny fashion instead of getting gooey-eyed -- she would blush or give some other MINOR indication of what was really going on but she would not melt into your arms or something equally ...melodramatic, she would comment on how funny the PC looked close-up or ...something. (Feh. I suck at expressive writing most days and the hour is not helping). I think it would play well because there are few things Imoen is serious about. Of course, (imo) it wouldn't (shouldn't) all be silly, but anything of a 'romantic' nature would take or be borne of spoof.
All I was trying to say was that by the end of the game we would get a definitive indication or declaration - a culmination of all those scenarios.. the fruits of our labors.
So... are we talking about the same thing?
#167
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Posted 18 August 2003 - 06:02 AM
While I agree with you that the game handles Good/Evil rather simplistically, you forget that your actions do no modify your alignment, but your reputation!The problem is that there really isn't any mechanism for a PC to do evil in quite the manner that Raistlin did. In the various Baldur's Gate games the only real evil options there are tend to be pretty blatent. Hmmm, steal the deed to Garren Windspear's land and give it to Firekraag. Give the all powerful artifact to the beholder. Poison ALL the druids to make sure you get rid of Faldorn. Let Hendak rot in slavery. The closest thing I can think of to the Raistlin path is the quest around Kangaxx... restore the evil lich in order to gain its power for yourself. But the game doesn't recognize that as evil and there are no negative effects from possessing an evil artifact like the Ring of Gaxx to make it at all questionable. Heck, my *paladin* character has a Ring of Gaxx.
You can still, kill, maim all you want as a LG fighter, and afaik, the only thing that will change is your reputation. True, the game sometimes uses your reputation as a measure of your alignment, but I tend to think of that as a design flaw rather than anything else.
It's perfectly possible for an "evil" person to have a heroic reputation.
#168
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Posted 18 August 2003 - 06:10 AM
While off topic, this is just too much fun to debate for me to pass up...I know its off topic, but i just haveto respon.
Raistlin isn't thoroughly evil. There are "redeeming" qualities in him, even while he lived. He helped those who were disadvantaged, because they weren't smart enough, weaker than others, etc. He didn't go out his way, but he did make a point to give them some minor aid.
He also did care about his brother a lot and his nephew. As well he was in love with high prestess...too long since i read the books to remember her name...
Even in his darkest days when he tried to become a god, he had some good in him.
Raistlin IS thoroughly evil. At least, if you ignore any book after the Legends. (Which is one of my other pet peeves, how they try to "redeem" Raistlin.)
1- Evil people don't have to hate EVERYTHING! They are still human, and there are things that they care about. Think Magneto, fighting for the power of mutants against the "normals". Think Strahd, whose love and longing for one woman created Ravenloft. Yes, Raistlin cares about those who are oppressed like he was, those mocked by the world. That doesn't mean he is not ambitious, manipulative, and ruthless to the bone. He might have felt sadness for the death of a company of gully dwarves, but that does not mean he would have changed his plans for them.
2- Raistlin NEVER loved Crysania. He used her to fulfill his own ends. Yes, he was attracted to her, but that is not love. The only person Raistlin does love is probably Caramon, and he wouldn't hesitate to kill him either if Caramon got in his way.
#169
Jinnai
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Bye Sanzo! You'll play with me again next time?
Posted 19 August 2003 - 09:58 PM
Well you haveto take in all the books as they are all official according to WotC.While off topic, this is just too much fun to debate for me to pass up...I know its off topic, but i just haveto respon.
Raistlin isn't thoroughly evil. There are "redeeming" qualities in him, even while he lived. He helped those who were disadvantaged, because they weren't smart enough, weaker than others, etc. He didn't go out his way, but he did make a point to give them some minor aid.
He also did care about his brother a lot and his nephew. As well he was in love with high prestess...too long since i read the books to remember her name...
Even in his darkest days when he tried to become a god, he had some good in him.
Raistlin IS thoroughly evil. At least, if you ignore any book after the Legends. (Which is one of my other pet peeves, how they try to "redeem" Raistlin.)
1- Evil people don't have to hate EVERYTHING! They are still human, and there are things that they care about. Think Magneto, fighting for the power of mutants against the "normals". Think Strahd, whose love and longing for one woman created Ravenloft. Yes, Raistlin cares about those who are oppressed like he was, those mocked by the world. That doesn't mean he is not ambitious, manipulative, and ruthless to the bone. He might have felt sadness for the death of a company of gully dwarves, but that does not mean he would have changed his plans for them.
2- Raistlin NEVER loved Crysania. He used her to fulfill his own ends. Yes, he was attracted to her, but that is not love. The only person Raistlin does love is probably Caramon, and he wouldn't hesitate to kill him either if Caramon got in his way.
1. Most people are ambitious, manipulative and in some sense ruthless...hey those are the characteristics of most successful business people. I can hardly count those traits as evil.
2. Actually somewhere in Dragons of Summer Flame i think he mentions that at one time he did love her, but he loved magic more.
Its true he wouldn't hesitate to kill anyone who got in his way, but again, even when taken with the 1st statement that doesn't mke someone evil...definatly not good, but not evil.
That is why he wore the Red Robes for most of his mortal life...it was only when he made the deal in Chronicles that his robes became black and the robes are magically deigned to represented ones alightment, unless some more powerful force overrides it.
I will say that for part of his life he was Lawful Evil, but that was really only in legends.
#170
Tancred
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Hapless Paladin
Posted 20 August 2003 - 05:15 AM
I'd say Raistlin moves from Chaotic Neutral to Neutral Evil, meself. I never see in him the wary respect of laws and loyalties that characterise Lawful Evil.
#171
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Posted 20 August 2003 - 06:57 AM
Actually, most successful business people probably are evil in the D&D sense. Business is war, and people with too much conscience can't make it in that brutal world of corporate ladder climbing. You have to be able to fire that man with 6 children to support because he's not efficient enough. You need to be able to shut down that branch and put 5000+ workers out of job. And sooner or later, you'll need to backstab one of your rivals to make sure that he doesn't stand in your way.1. Most people are ambitious, manipulative and in some sense ruthless...hey those are the characteristics of most successful business people. I can hardly count those traits as evil.
And any dragonlance book after Legends is crap.
#173
Icefloe
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Posted 23 September 2003 - 08:15 AM
you're very deep, UU. And depsite what most of the others said about your ideas for the ending of the game, I thought "wow, that was almost Shakespearean in it's tragic-ness, yet also very touching. I can understand everyone's point of views, atleast within my abilities,on this, But i still think it would be nice to play through, Not all stories have happy endings, or atleast endings that everyone would agree is 'good'. Perhaps you should write it up as a mod much like the 'getting rid of Anomen' mod that's an attachment to the Kesley<sp> mod, wherein Kes has a little dream sequence where he and the Char have a happy little life, and they finally manage to get rid of the annoying suitor, Anomen. Just something small that could be added on by those interested, like myself.well, i believe quitch said something to the effect imoen would be romanceable only if some traumatic event happens....like the pc making the choice between party and imoen.....
and like i said, it would be the users choice to either dump the party or romance imoen...
#174
Icefloe
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Posted 23 September 2003 - 08:25 AM
Another good example of 'evil' is Lord Soth. I know that may be going backa looong ways, but I'd put it forth that that was one man, though in all honesty, Soth was undead, though not your typical undead, who had none of the redeaming qualties that perhaps Rastalin did. Ras does seem to be something of the tragic figure. I almost never felt sorry for Soth. He fell quite a way, that one.
#175
Jinnai
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Bye Sanzo! You'll play with me again next time?
Posted 23 September 2003 - 09:42 AM
I would post on this, but I really don't wish to start a flame war.Manipulative is a trait that I'll always consider 'evil'.
But it doesn't matter...i don't view manipulative as evil...only a means to an end, because parents manipulate their children every day (hopefully) to be better people.
#176
Kish
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Posted 23 September 2003 - 06:27 PM
No, he says that she didn't love him as much as she did her ambition.2. Actually somewhere in Dragons of Summer Flame i think he mentions that at one time he did love her, but he loved magic more.
...the hell?Its true he wouldn't hesitate to kill anyone who got in his way, but again, even when taken with the 1st statement that doesn't mke someone evil.
If killing anyone who gets in your way isn't evil, then nothing is.
http://www.moveon.org/fox/
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--Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan
#177
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 10:42 PM
Why Imoen should be romanceable
I might just get back on topic and go with the simply answer, Ready, here it goes:
I wish it to be so.
That's not an arrogent statement that "this is what I think so this is the way it MUST be", it is simply me expressing a desire to explore the possibility.
Let us take a simple example of a conversation and it's consequences.
As posted before, from an offical bioware source.
-Imoen and Haer'Dalis-
HaerDalis?: Ahh, Imoen, my wildflower. Have I ever told you you?ve a most natural grace and innocent beauty about you? T?is something any man would find most charming.
Imoen: Yeah, okay, whatever. I don?t know about my grace, HaerDalis?, but I?m not all that innocent. I can smell a cheesy come-on from a mile away.
HaerDalis?: ?Twas not meant as such. I?ve no intention of offending you.
Imoen: Uh-huh.
HaerDalis?: T?is only that I see you in an unguarded moment, at times ... and I see the ache in your heart reflected in your eyes. It saddens this sparrow to know there is no-one to hold you close, Imoen.
Imoen: I ...
HaerDalis?: But no doubt I over-step my bounds by saying so. It has only ever been my hope that you might one day give me the chance to be the one that comforts you. It would be an honor, my wildflower.
Imoen: Whew. Gosh, you?re good.
HaerDalis?: Yes, I know. T?is an art form that has served this sparrow well, at times.
Imoen: Write a book. I?ll buy it.
At the conclusion of this, without thinking, without concious choice, I was short 1 level 6 memorised spell, some items and 1 party member. The in game log read:
...Imoen: Write a book. I?ll buy it.
Drasius:Casts Disintergrate:Haer'dalis
Haer'dalis:Death
Thusly is an indication of how strongly I feel, as is the fact that we have so many different people arguing so vehemently from one side or the other for or against a romance with Imoen, what her sexuality is/was/could be, even going so far as to waste 19 pages argiung if she was raped in the opening dungeon.
All of this for a character who isn't present for a large portion of SoA(depends on how soon you rescue her obviously, even if you go soon as I do, she is still missing a fair bit), and has little to no dialouge with either the PC or other party members.
Just an indication of the strong feelings people have about her character, why deny people an opportunity to further develop Imoen and guide her as the players deems appropriate(within the bounds given by the mod makers obviously), influencing both her fate and PC's.
It all comes down to the original question, Why Imoen should be romanceable? Because the players wish it to be so. Why should Imoen be considered to be a sister and nothing more? Because the players wish it to be so. Give the players choice and let the decide for themselves which course they choose.
I might just get back on topic and go with the simply answer, Ready, here it goes:
I wish it to be so.
That's not an arrogent statement that "this is what I think so this is the way it MUST be", it is simply me expressing a desire to explore the possibility.
Let us take a simple example of a conversation and it's consequences.
As posted before, from an offical bioware source.
-Imoen and Haer'Dalis-
HaerDalis?: Ahh, Imoen, my wildflower. Have I ever told you you?ve a most natural grace and innocent beauty about you? T?is something any man would find most charming.
Imoen: Yeah, okay, whatever. I don?t know about my grace, HaerDalis?, but I?m not all that innocent. I can smell a cheesy come-on from a mile away.
HaerDalis?: ?Twas not meant as such. I?ve no intention of offending you.
Imoen: Uh-huh.
HaerDalis?: T?is only that I see you in an unguarded moment, at times ... and I see the ache in your heart reflected in your eyes. It saddens this sparrow to know there is no-one to hold you close, Imoen.
Imoen: I ...
HaerDalis?: But no doubt I over-step my bounds by saying so. It has only ever been my hope that you might one day give me the chance to be the one that comforts you. It would be an honor, my wildflower.
Imoen: Whew. Gosh, you?re good.
HaerDalis?: Yes, I know. T?is an art form that has served this sparrow well, at times.
Imoen: Write a book. I?ll buy it.
At the conclusion of this, without thinking, without concious choice, I was short 1 level 6 memorised spell, some items and 1 party member. The in game log read:
...Imoen: Write a book. I?ll buy it.
Drasius:Casts Disintergrate:Haer'dalis
Haer'dalis:Death
Thusly is an indication of how strongly I feel, as is the fact that we have so many different people arguing so vehemently from one side or the other for or against a romance with Imoen, what her sexuality is/was/could be, even going so far as to waste 19 pages argiung if she was raped in the opening dungeon.
All of this for a character who isn't present for a large portion of SoA(depends on how soon you rescue her obviously, even if you go soon as I do, she is still missing a fair bit), and has little to no dialouge with either the PC or other party members.
Just an indication of the strong feelings people have about her character, why deny people an opportunity to further develop Imoen and guide her as the players deems appropriate(within the bounds given by the mod makers obviously), influencing both her fate and PC's.
It all comes down to the original question, Why Imoen should be romanceable? Because the players wish it to be so. Why should Imoen be considered to be a sister and nothing more? Because the players wish it to be so. Give the players choice and let the decide for themselves which course they choose.
#178
Quitch
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Perfection
Posted 23 April 2004 - 12:24 AM
Why deny people the chance? Because I want to develop Imoen along Imoen lines. I wish to take her character and run with it in relevant and logical directions. Therefore the player will be free to explore in whichever direction they wish, but Imoen will react, as she always does, in an Imoen way. Hence this debate; how would you expect Imoen to react to the player coming onto her?
Past: Ascension, Return to Windspear, Imoen Relationship, The Broken Hourglass
"Perfection has no deadline"
#179
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Posted 23 April 2004 - 04:30 AM
I agree whole-heartedly. Imoen has (supposedly) been the PC's closest friend for a very, very, very long time. It's obvious to me that she thinks of the PC as her brother/sister figure, Bhaalspawn or not.What does matter to this mod, though, is that Imoen would never go for such a relationship. Whether the PC actually is her sibling or not, she certainly thinks of him (or her) as one, and it certainly matters to her. Mischaracterizing Imoen=Bad. It would wreck the mod if, in the mod, Imoen's speech patterns were suddenly replaced with Aerie's, or if she lost her sense of loyalty for no reason, or if she otherwise did something she would never do.
Good example: If you respond harshly to her in BG1 when she catches up with you after Gorion's death, she acts like a typical, loyal yet irritating little sister, responding with a "well I'm coming along anywhere, so there!"-type response.
I think Imoen would be shocked by the idea of she and the PC having anything more than a siblings' relationship. Her personality just screams that out to me.
Despite all her mischief, she still seems quite...well... "proper".
Alas, I haven't read the whole thread (laziness on my part), but it seems at least a few of the people here arguing the other way are basing their arguements primarily on the fact that Imoen and the PC are only technically brothers and sisters.
It makes no difference. I have friends which I regard as practically like siblings to me. The fact that we're not related by genetics doesn't change how I feel about them.
Bioware makes it clear that Imoen sees the PC as a sibling. So the only real question is, would she have a problem with technical incest?
I think yes.
#180
The Masked Marionette
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Posted 23 April 2004 - 04:32 AM
Sorry, the above was me. For some reason, no matter what I do, the forums won't keep me logged in. 
;
;
The final curtain will fall...
