124 replies to this topic

[LordKableNikon]

All of this falls on one flaw although it is an important ones.

Valen is a thrall to a more powerful, dominant and older vampire. Romance should be off the agenda permantly.

Yes, but after Bohdi Dies, is she still a thrall, how can one control another when the mistress is in final death?
I'd be grateful if removed some enchanted slavery upon me so I could grow up to be an UBER Vampire...
And most "romances" come to a certain point in the game after Bohdi gets "Whacked" and whose to say that she doesn't find the pc appealing when bohdi gets beaten by the pc?
And most of the times Thralls act in the best interest of there master/mistress, and following direct orders when they are in the presence of them.
So what I am trying to say is when she "gets her freedom" what keeps her from finding the pc very appealing?

[Seifer]

What keeps her from rediscovering entirely different elements in her newfound freedom

It might be viewed that moving from thralldom to a relationship is a paradigm, that is, shifting from one form of slavery to another.

[LordKableNikon]

Seifer,
There is one thing simple to this, a good amount people, and especially vampires in the D&D world are very much static. When a character becomes a vampire they don't just change classes, it is what they are "Used To"

I do martial arts for a living, and really I stick to where my guns are at, I have a problem I fight, I usually don't talk things through for I am a fairly intorverted fellow.

the thing is people stick to what they are used to, especially after a ground breaking situation, with vampires lets use Count Strahd as an example from the world of Ravenloft. He is always stuck in the past: killing his brother out of jealousy and letting the girl he loved commit suicide. So what I am saying is if the "romance" is a slavery, it would just be a different type, one that she would be more accustomed to than her total freedom.

Sometimes it is fear that keeps us from moving on...
Plus she has her freedom from Bohdi since she dies etc... that reverts me to these previous points I made...
1.Well Valen is Chaotic Evil.... is there a thing or did my world just flipped upside down and Chaotic Evil people aren't attracted to Power?
2.If Valen found out he was a son of Bhaal, why the hell
would she not want to atleast try and seduce him....
come on, When Throne of Bhaal Comes around,
Where he has the choice to ascend, can we think blood god
and like vampire god,and so which blood crazed vampire woman
wouldn't want to be his consort and be the Lady of Blood and Murder?

And since you said "It might be viewed that moving from thralldom to a relationship is a paradigm, that is, shifting from one form of slavery to another."
Thus this is a perception, and it might not at all be conisdered slavery in her mind...

Now for Thorium Dragon
If you are still accepting ideas
In ToB in the city of saradush, if you have valen in your party and have her talk with the prostitutes who are vampires, she would notice and like put you on your quest to have a vampire stronghold, fighters get a castle why can't like you being a soon to be lord of murder get a cult of vampires?
2) Have Valen's epilogue atleast be evilly acceptable, like she would plan on killing you if you turned down godhood, but if you accepted and evil she would be your queen, it is almost fitting and ironic, bohdi the vampire girl who wanted to ascend to godhood, instead her slave and enemy ascend to godhood.
3) Perhaps your pc can share in undeath with her? being a vampire as well, so she'd think you as more than divine cattle(if she thinks of you that way)
(being a divine vampire might make the main char more appealing to valen)
4) I have other ideas but yah this note is getting way too long so if you want more Thorium Dragon then just respond

[Seifer]

I studied Kenpo, I don't anymore.

I appreciate your willingness to talk so lets keep to that bit eh?

Staticness is more often then not the result of bad writing. I'm not speaking of keeping Valen as a traditional Rocky HammerShow/Peter Cushing scenario, I'm asking for a bit of perspective.
People screaming 'lets redeem the vampire, lets romance the vampire' is just as stagnant as the above mentioned images. Changing everything just so that it no longer represents the original concept does NOT mean that is is any less static/stagnant/poor.

Chapter One - No Valen
Chapter Two - Get Valen
Chapter Three - Valen is still a dedicated servant of Bohdi
Chapter Four - stabbed in the back at spellhold
Chapter Five - takes new master - PC
Chapter Six - Previous Master gets killed by new master
Chapter Seven - get discount tickets to see Jon in concert


Pretty tight schedule huh

Now, to your assumptions:-

1.Well Valen is Chaotic Evil.... is there a thing or did my world just flipped upside down and Chaotic Evil people aren't attracted to Power?
2.If Valen found out he was a son of Bhaal, why the hell
would she not want to atleast try and seduce him....
come on, When Throne of Bhaal Comes around,
Where he has the choice to ascend, can we think blood god
and like vampire god,and so which blood crazed vampire woman
wouldn't want to be his consort and be the Lady of Blood and Murder?

In this case, she is more attracted to blood and especially applicable, since she is a vampire, she might be looking for SURVIVAL. The old 'they all want power' is one of the oldest justifications in the book. Using this as a basis for a story will make it worthless from the start. Inventing a personality and a history for a character, deciding what makes them tick will be a better option here.

Option two really works on the basis of Valenhaving FREEWILL which isn't the case, Bohdi is what, a matriach? No contest. If Charname is powerful enough to take her down she will be no match for him/her as well. This is what is missing from the whole thing. What's to stop Kelemvor from strepping in and killing her before she could possibly ascend. Valen was nothing more then a petty criminal who was turned into a vampire by sheer luck. In her human form she lacked any sort of wisdom or clarity and in an undead guise she is guided by pure instinct alone.

Considering the scope of the game, there is NO time for her to garner a will of her own let along consider a romance or the options of godhood.

Edited by Seifer, 30 January 2004 - 09:06 PM.

[Thorium Dragon]

I have other ideas but yah this note is getting way too long so if you want more Thorium Dragon then just respond.

Sure, I'd like to hear them.

Changing everything just so that it no longer represents the original concept does NOT mean that is is any less static/stagnant/poor

In a nutshell, what do you consider the original concept? Just curious.

Considering the scope of the game, there is NO time for her to garner a will of her own let along consider a romance or the options of godhood.

I'm inclined to agree, but taken in perspective with the development of the PC, who goes from getting smacked around by gibberlings outside of Candlekeep to potential godhood in a matter of months of game time, is anything really so unbelievable?

Inventing a personality and a history for a character, deciding what makes them tick will be a better option here.

That's what I'm shooting for.

Overall, I think that if the story is logical, well-formed and attention to detail is given throughout the mod it will be easier to suspend disbelief. I find that to be the case in any fictional work.

[Seifer]

Point at a time here:-

I don't really have a concept as per se on this but see it as a little deviant. I see Valen as a thrall who is always subjugated to the will of another regardless of PC or Bohdi. I see, as acted out in her banters and so forth, someone who will live and die for her master/mistress. Beyond this, yes, I agree that there is room for expansion. However, to think of free will and romance, in my subjective opinion, is too large a shift to be seen as feasible.

I'm inclined to agree, but taken in perspective with the development of the PC, who goes from getting smacked around by gibberlings outside of Candlekeep to potential godhood in a matter of months of game time, is anything really so unbelievable?

Errm. consider the following points:-
1 - BGII is a protagonist game
2 - Charname IS the son of a deity
3 - Forces greater then the PC or Bohdi are creating their future.

In regards to the writing of any work, fiction or otherwise, you can take one of two opinions. Make it up as you go along which if done properly with the likes of Kelsey and Chloe being an example, it can work or, as I prefer, and the method advocated by Tolkien, using an actual history whether invented or otherwise, can be used to explain much.
This is what we applied (basiclly, I'll admit) with K&Z and what I want to apply to SS/NS and Horace.

[LordKableNikon]

Option two really works on the basis of Valenhaving FREEWILL which isn't the case, Bohdi is what, a matriach? No contest. If Charname is powerful enough to take her down she will be no match for him/her as well. This is what is missing from the whole thing. What's to stop Kelemvor from strepping in and killing her before she could possibly ascend. Valen was nothing more then a petty criminal who was turned into a vampire by sheer luck. In her human form she lacked any sort of wisdom or clarity and in an undead guise she is guided by pure instinct alone.
"Sometimes it is just sheer luck that makes americans millionaire's"
Powerball/Lotto/and assorted gambles.
I am percieving that you believe thralls are mindless automatans(sp)
but there are definately situations where she shows her own will.

finally got free time, and what I remember from the valen mod, valen did have some semblance of "free will"
I remember a few actions she had "free will"
1) She got angry at the De'arnise aunt something or other and was going to rip her head off (not that the thought wouldn't cross my mind, I wouldn't act upon it)
2) She thanks Roger the fence for how he always gave her a fair deal when she was a normal kid.
3) She takes the silver dragon eggs and gives them to the demon...
no questions asked there is free will especially on the first two accounts
for I don't see bohdi thanking someone for helping her thrall when she was "cattle"
or how she thinks on her past and wants vengeance for the aunty being such well... a bitch...
4)The Kelemvor part I did see and I remember back, that Lord Ao forbid all the dieties from tampering with the bhaalspawn's destiny... now off handling zapping ones npcs' I would probably believe as "stacking the odds" and or Tampering in my mind. (The thing Cyric said why he couldn't just zap the pc in his pocket plane)




Now like thorium dragon said in a matter of game months you come from getting smacked by gibberlings to ascending to godhood, Baldurs Gate is a definate thing that brings a dramatic shift in someone's beings, (The hell trials)
So what is really to keep Valen from having a dramatic shift in her paradigm?
And from your points I would tend to agree in SoA there wouldn't be room for a romance but it is said that you spent somewhere like a month or two in Suldanesslar(sp) so that being said two months plus whatever game time you were with Valen I'd believe a romance in ToB would be a very plausible possibility in my mind.
Alright and sometimes with betrayal people become "more vulnerable."
So What I think is that the pc has the ability to open the doors to valen for a romance, so in ToB there definately would be more time for her to be receptive to you.
So what I am trying to say is I concede to your logic that there really is no time for a romance in SoA but I know ToB is fair game.

Now my Idea for Thorium Dragon
Like in a situation where Valen looks for a knew master/mistress
I remember in the Soulafein(Sp) mod when Soulafein became a vampire
he was definately more Badass than bohdi ever was.
So by the end SoA she offers to make you her knew master/mistress (A.K.A)
Making you a vampire. Or in ToB in the beginning she offers the same offer
because in my mind the only way she would see you nothing more than a divine cattle is a divine master/mistress. and thus the "romance" would be a little skewered and strange I'd admit, but things have happened where a slave has loved its master and the love was mutual responding. (Ever heard the saying Love is eternal) B)
Well and that brings if the pc is a vampire then the vampires in the sieged city would definately act differently especially if the pc is a patriarch/matriarch.
What is done with the vampires is up to you, I am just putting out examples.
I know that Jan and Haer Daelis(sp) that they like to insult or they like to poke fun, I'd just be laughing because I was in a good party and Jan Insulted Anomen Keldorn and Minsc and I was like Keldorn and Anomen were reading to kill him if he kept going, and so I was like... if keldorn anomen and minsc decided to do a righteous buttkicking on jan I wouldn't see he'd be able to stop it,
Same would go for Valen, she'd be pissed because Jan insulted her and she went "RaR" and kill Jan, I really don't see to many npcs fighting.
So yah I'll stop for now I don't want to bore people with too long of notes

[Seifer]

Well, with all points being said and considered, I'll throw the towel in the ring and leave you all to it.

Good luck in your endevours!

[LordKableNikon]

Hey Thorium Dragon:
Do you have any alpha testers of your mod or beta testers for I for one would be like... Need Valen Mod to complete my Bg2 experience....
So i'd be glad to update you on whatever I find or go through the mod.
Though if you don't want me to test, I would be incredibly .......
Yah well I thought with the coffin/urn thingy, what happens if valen has it on her and she goes... well poof??

Ideas
I would think that the vampire slayers would come in ToB in the oasis or the drow forest, it would probably make the best way, have it like 4.5 million exp they come in, and then make them a tad bit stronger.
Have more than one group of vampire slayers, like one come in at the very beginning, and they are like a newbie group trying to erradicate the undead.
you know, make valen and the pc a little more infamous, for I know Helsing Buffy Faith etc... there would be more than one group of slayers to attack the team. It just doesn't make sense that there would be only one group of slayers ever to attack a "legendary vampire"
When Having Valen in the party and the romance "continues" and you are romancing viconia, I'd think they wouldn't see eye to eye on who should have the pc. Viconia being an evil cleric could cower/control the undead while valen would see her as just cattle trying to rise above its station. (what I am trying to say is "Have Valen kill her in her sleep" PLEASE!!!!
If you have Minsc in the party and Valen, when Minsc finds out she is a vampire, minsc really would immediately try to make a good liberal butt kicking to her evil vampness.
Yah though in ToB I wouldn't see it as much as a romance than a seduction, but that is what I think.
Also have something like a will counter, matters through the dialogue, "is that the farther she is away from her mistress, and what you say on the dialogue the more "free will" she'd have. So if you have collected enough will counters for her a "romance" might occur in ToB
Question Does Valen have dialogue about the pc's stronghold?
if she doesn't I would think she'd have about 2-3 matters what type of stronghold it is, and that there would dialogues that would give a few will counter points. Just a few nothing big so if people don't want a stronghold won't really be penalized for it. I have a bit of examples.

Keep: Valen talks about hiding place, The Chapel area (Borumir the cleric is bad she wants it for herself) and the "Cellar" A.K.A The Torture Dungeon (She likes the area and this would be the place where she might gain a few points.
Temple of Lathandar (She Hates it)
Temple of Helm (Jittery Unconfortable)
Temple of Talos (Great place) She gives a dialogue that you should take over the priesthood. and probably a dialogue after you have given everyone advice.
Playhouse (Nice place to start up a beginning coven of vampires, who would guess actors that are vampires.) She gives a saying about Vampires pretending to be actors pretending to be vampires....
Cabin (all bad too rustic and though she likes the plus of a town she might terrorize)
Paladin stronghold.... 2 words YAH RIGHT....
Planar Sphere, I don't have dialogue thoughts on it yet.
Thiefs guild you can't get....

also the I think she'd hear stories about Gax the Lich and warn about him, and instead of fighting Gax if she opens and free's Gax, the party gets a boon for she is undead instead of fighting him, and may also give a few missions, siding with Gax might be fun.
Quests might include the removal of the cowled ones
Removal of the Twisted Rune.
A new zone the Netheril area, in which Gax gets his final revenge...
I am like why can't you side with the evil people it is like.... Why can't I???

[Bane]

Gax looks like the lone ranger kind of guy (or thing ) who hates everything and everyone and wants to destroy them all (loveable guy).

The rest of the stuff u said sounded good to me. For the planar sphere maybe she could hint to you to get some daemons on your side to bring them back with you (after killing one for their heart) kinda like the daemon in the drow city. For payment you could give something like valgars relative after he brings you to your planet (or something like that).

That stuff about her being attratced to your heritage is also good stuff

[LordKableNikon]

Here are other ideas,

If there would be a lot of coding work to do, or perhaps it won't they are just ideas
Have like Reinfeild that harper guy you find on the ground have valen able to drink his blood and like the elder brain and the kua toan prince's blood and maybe other types of blood to give valen bonuses.


Ok Well with Valen I was thinking of like, what characters wouldn't fall to the seduction of being a vampire. This will happen AFTER the Buffy/Faith/Helsing
Vampire hunters "When the party proves there "loyalty and trust" into Valen.
Edwin: I get to live for hundreds of years I can get my pointy hat and I will now kick Elminsters' Arse.
Korgan: I am stronger get to swing my axe faster and wounds me less to me.
Sarevok: I can't have godhood why can't I be immortal and stronger still...
The Mainchar: "I AM GONNA BE A VAMPIRE GOD.... I AM GONNA BE A NAUGHTY.... A NAUGHTY VAMPIRE GOD..." Blade 1
"Other ways valen would be able to seduce the pcs and get the "vote" of the party."

Also I thought the twisted rune, why the hell are they so hostile, its not like just ANYONE can pierce there "Wards and Barriers." So if your so awesome, you'd hire and use those exceptional people...
What about the people in the temple district in a guarded whatever,
is it like you have to be an ass and you have to challenge them,
it is like I can't ask you for work.
Or how bout Gaal and the Eyeless one Beholder, why can't you join with them, it is like COME ON... Can't you become a slaver or be an evil bodyguard or whatever?
It is like the game is MADE FOR GOOD ONLY... it is sad in my mind that they don't allow you evil choices more often.
Like Sir Sarles thing,
Sarles: Why should I work for you?
Pc:....
Sarles: What I do need is 200 pounds of Pure Illithium.
Pc: I could kill you right now you pompous cur!
Sarles: ......
Pc: You either work now, or you pay in blood....
Sarles: *Scared*
Pc: Now work you ................... yah you get the hint.
That type of Dialogue I really like....

[Kish]

The Mainchar: "I AM GONNA BE A VAMPIRE GOD.... I AM GONNA BE A NAUGHTY.... A NAUGHTY VAMPIRE GOD..." Blade 1

The main character crumbles into dust upon dying, and therefore can't become a vampire.

Or how bout Gaal and the Eyeless one Beholder, why can't you join with them, it is like COME ON...

They assume you wouldn't be willing to put our your eyes. And really, even for an evil PC, I think becoming that depending on a creature as ultimately weak (compared to Irenicus) as the Unseeing Eye would be a big mistake.

Can't you become a slaver

Yes, you can. You just have to be a thief and take over Mae'Var's guild for Renal Bloodscalp.

[Bane]

Yes, you can. You just have to be a thief and take over Mae'Var's guild for Renal Bloodscalp.

how does making you a thief guildmaster make you a slaver?

[Kish]

It doesn't necessarily, it only does if you choose the dialogue option that tells one of your lieutenants, "Yes, I want my guild to sell slaves."

[LordKableNikon]

Ummm Kish I see from forgotten children, ever play that mod?
Since Bohdi tried to be a vampire to get passed the seldarine's curse,
why can't a pc get vampirism as a "blessing?"
I am just giving ideas, there is a way for you to bring back a half-vampire back to life after you have killed them...
So why can't there be a way to find an "evil altar" and get transformed into a vampire using the heart of bohdi? (Suggestion)
also it is a mod dude... I was just giving ideas...
That slavery thing in the thieves guild is a piss poor excuse for being a slaver
I want one of my "Men" to sell slaves, I am talking going to captain haegan and like being part of his "crew" And you can give the piece to gaal but he will always betray you, I am like you can't do alot of things really "evil" (Saying most but not all, like you can poison the druid grove" and if you do poison the druid grove the one guy who put you to it, doesn't take over and so forth and you get left out high and dry... all bad... bad bad Black Isle.

If you read from my other posts I am just giving ideas to Thorium Dragon and his valen mod which he can use as "quests" quests that evil people can do and like...


anyways Kish I don't see you offering up any idead for the valen expansion,
all this is for: is to offer up suggestions for his mod what he can add in for valen and what quests he could put in, "it is a mod..."
Not to criticize other peoples idea.
I spend a lot of time thinking of ideas for the mod, but right now I can just throw in basically random suggestions Since Thorium Dragon is being really vague on what he wants ideas on, he just asked for ideas on his "creative spark" and well that is what I am trying to do.


For Thorium Dragon:
just my idea/2cents
Now there are other things like Have quests for valen based off the stronghold you get.
Keep: Valen re-opens the torture chamber after mistress nalia proclaimed you as true heir or what not, for saving the keep... "After that nalia has an "unfortuneate" accident....
Cabin: Valen raids and gets a small posse of vampires after she preys and stalks on the village, the pc can help her out on her choices.
"Excellent time to bring in vampire hunters"
Sphere: if you have more than one demon heart you can start making "allies"
which will help you in the end of the game in your pocket plane against Irenicus.
On the condition you make them stronger somehow...
Just having quests for Valen based off your stronghold might put some flavor into it.
I could probably think of the others but yah,

Or when Imoen gets her soul back and Valen gets free-will she will ask you what would you do if she decided to drink all of imoen's blood since she is a bhaalspawn... you could give a sure, I don't know or flat No.
each one will determine what she thinks of you, and if you let her have her way.
Valen might get some small enhancement and Imoen goes "poof"
Like if you say yes it might give you a better chance for a better romance in ToB.
I wouldn't see Valen getting along with any of the good pcs except Valygar, maybe in my mind Valygar doesn't talk much and probably wouldn't give a damn about Valen right away.

oh yah Thorium Dragon please respond telling the forum what you would want ideas on, it might help, atleast I'd try and give my honest opinion.
____________________________________________________________________

"I am part of the kill the viconia bitch club"

[Kish]

anyways Kish I don't see you offering up any idead for the valen expansion,
all this is for: is to offer up suggestions for his mod what he can add in for valen and what quests he could put in, "it is a mod..."
Not to criticize other peoples idea.

Sorry, no, I do not buy "it's wrong to point out anything wrong with any idea another person posts."

I don't know what you mean about "forgotten children," and no, I'm unfamiliar with a mod by that name.

[Seifer]

Criticism is an active part of any walk of life. People should learn to deal with it if its valid and disregard it if isn't. For the moment, I'll decline to comment.

Kish, forgotten children is a mod over at TBG, an IAP mod by Mortis if recall.

[Bane]

Criticism is an active part of any walk of life

as long as it isn't too harsh aswell

[LordKableNikon]

Look Kish, Thorium Dragon put this forum up for people to give him ideas,
Not to bring some sort of arguement or point out something wrong, it is all up to him what he uses dude. You can believe what you want or anything I don't care if you believe the moon is made of cheese. Plus we can all believe(I hope) that CBS is a private bussiness and they can choose to play whatever they want... but putting that aside.

So right now I am just going to "bow out" and wait till Thorium Dragon gives a reply or maybe something to prove he is there or is listening,
So good morning... and if I don't see you later, good afternoon, good evening, and good night (Truman show)