44 replies to this topic

[Roxanne]

Roxanne, on 03 Jan 2018 - 20:23, said:

Apart from this, Corwin's reaction to Scar's death is still on my to-do list.

Spoiler

My intention was to illustrate her dilemma in a dialogue with the protagonist about priorities - rescue Eltan vs. stop Sarevok - vs possibly (not assured) find dead Scar (where?) and have him ressurrected. Outcome - Scar died while performing his duty and his memory will be honored but Eltan can still be saved AND Sarevok be stopped, so this is the option she decides. She is a commanding officer and she knows how to deal with casualties. Saving what still can be saved has priority even with Scar having been a close friend.

I am still looking for an event in the chapter 7 where I can attach it to. I am a bit afraid I already put nearly too much Corwin into that part of the story (coming back to BG after Candlekeep until facing Sarevok at his elevation to duke).

EDIT - I integrated this aspect into the Kent encounter (The soldier you meet when you come to rescue Eltan, who plans to desert the Flaming Fist). Corwin stops him from deserting the Fist, sends him to the loyal forces she organises and also inquires him about Scar's corpse. In this context she learns that she has to give up Scar in order to rescue Eltan and stop Sarevok and discusses this with the protagonist.

[jastey]

Roxanne said:

jastey said:

bg1re "Scar return" component gives the possibility to look for his remains and let him be revived. The PC can have a last good bye dialogue before he vanishes into some private life far away. He has no interest in regaining his former status. I could imagineCorwin would try to urge him to return.
The component is designed so it fits into the main story (that assumes he is dead and gone) without making any ripples. When writing it, I had a search whether there is any canon information about Scar. Whereas Duke Eltan is revived in canon lore, too, there is no record of Scar - but also none that he stayed dead.

The only ever later appearance of Scar I know of is that of his dead body found much later in the game in the Stormhorn Mountains (mod contents) and that will surely not collide with your story.
And for Corwin, a Scar that is revived and vanishes into private life when the town that is her everything is in need - such a person is a deserter of the worst kind, and more than dead. After all, she is one of the three person alive who know *Scar*'s real name. So there is also no conflict here,
 
Apart from this, Corwin's reaction to Scar's death is still on my to-do list.

Spoiler

My intention was to illustrate her dilemma in a dialogue with the protagonist about priorities - rescue Eltan vs. stop Sarevok - vs possibly (not assured) find dead Scar (where?) and have him ressurrected. Outcome - Scar died while performing his duty and his memory will be honored but Eltan can still be saved AND Sarevok be stopped, so this is the option she decides. She is a commanding officer and she knows how to deal with casualties. Saving what still can be saved has priority even with Scar having been a close friend.

I am still looking for an event in the chapter 7 where I can attach it to. I am a bit afraid I already put nearly too much Corwin into that part of the story (coming back to BG after Candlekeep until facing Sarevok at his elevation to duke).

Finding his body somewhere else definitely collides with the bg1re component as the body can be found there, too, and brought to Eltan while he is hiding with the harbor master. It is not used then to revive him, though, but finding it then again later would be... gross? Which mod does introduce his body in the Stormhorn Mountains?

The situation in which the PC sees Scar again is right before Sarevok has to be pursued in the maze - he is weak then and no help in battle. The city is saved, though, except for the last stand. As much as the reaction you described fit the character of Corwin that showed when she requested of an appearently innocent PC to play the twisted version of a hero and pledge guilty so the city can come to rest - which was a real WTF moment for me, btw, because it shows that she is not really interested in finding the real murderer, but a righteous warrior very close to self-righteousness, and falling. What I wanted to say: As much as it fits this character, the situation is that the city is more or less saved, new people are in charge, and Scar feels old and spent. Another possible reaction to his decline of returning to his post where he gave his life for already could be gratefulness for his achievements and understanding that there is only so much one man can give and also, that there is a good time for everything (to end). But maybe Corwin is still too young and too driven to come to such an understanding?

Independent on how Corwin's reaction to the meeting would be, I would be happy if the two mods would work together. The Corwin mod sounds like an addition that fills a necessary gap especially concerning the forces working inside the Flaming Fist during the times of Sarevok's empowerment. As it sounds, the only thing necessary would be a comment from Corwin when the PC finds clues as to where Scar's body might be, that she doesn't have to neglect one to save the other, after all.

[jastey]

Roxanne, on 04 Jan 2018 - 09:39, said:

Roxanne, on 03 Jan 2018 - 20:23, said:

Apart from this, Corwin's reaction to Scar's death is still on my to-do list.

Spoiler

My intention was to illustrate her dilemma in a dialogue with the protagonist about priorities - rescue Eltan vs. stop Sarevok - vs possibly (not assured) find dead Scar (where?) and have him ressurrected. Outcome - Scar died while performing his duty and his memory will be honored but Eltan can still be saved AND Sarevok be stopped, so this is the option she decides. She is a commanding officer and she knows how to deal with casualties. Saving what still can be saved has priority even with Scar having been a close friend.

I am still looking for an event in the chapter 7 where I can attach it to. I am a bit afraid I already put nearly too much Corwin into that part of the story (coming back to BG after Candlekeep until facing Sarevok at his elevation to duke).

EDIT - I integrated this aspect into the Kent encounter (The soldier you meet when you come to rescue Eltan, who plans to desert the Flaming Fist). Corwin stops him from deserting the Fist, sends him to the loyal forces she organises and also inquires him about Scar's corpse. In this context she learns that she has to give up Scar in order to rescue Eltan and stop Sarevok and discusses this with the protagonist.

This is perfect for compatibility, then, as it is before any of the bg1re events start to roll.

[Roxanne]

jastey, on 04 Jan 2018 - 10:14, said:

Roxanne, on 04 Jan 2018 - 09:39, said:

Roxanne, on 03 Jan 2018 - 20:23, said:

Apart from this, Corwin's reaction to Scar's death is still on my to-do list.

Spoiler

My intention was to illustrate her dilemma in a dialogue with the protagonist about priorities - rescue Eltan vs. stop Sarevok - vs possibly (not assured) find dead Scar (where?) and have him ressurrected. Outcome - Scar died while performing his duty and his memory will be honored but Eltan can still be saved AND Sarevok be stopped, so this is the option she decides. She is a commanding officer and she knows how to deal with casualties. Saving what still can be saved has priority even with Scar having been a close friend.

I am still looking for an event in the chapter 7 where I can attach it to. I am a bit afraid I already put nearly too much Corwin into that part of the story (coming back to BG after Candlekeep until facing Sarevok at his elevation to duke).

EDIT - I integrated this aspect into the Kent encounter (The soldier you meet when you come to rescue Eltan, who plans to desert the Flaming Fist). Corwin stops him from deserting the Fist, sends him to the loyal forces she organises and also inquires him about Scar's corpse. In this context she learns that she has to give up Scar in order to rescue Eltan and stop Sarevok and discusses this with the protagonist.

This is perfect for compatibility, then, as it is before any of the bg1re events start to roll.

With the explanation given in the post before, it looks like it can become all one consistent story. Corwin (part of my mod is to paint her less blatant than the original) already *runs the business* of the loyal part of the Flaming Fist while Eltan and Scar are incapable. She also leaves the PC after Korlasz dungeon with the intend to clean up the Fist together with Eltan. When the crusade starts, she is in charge of the forces that march against Caelar and already quasi replacing Scar per SoD plot. So the Scar scene to be alive but retiring complements that storyline perfectly.

One of the ideas of my mod is that - of course, depending on the way the player lets the protagonist act - the relationship between her and PC can become such, that she can keep her trust in the hero even after Dragonspear.

 

 

Quote

she is not really interested in finding the real murderer,

I do not agree to that. You get Ivanne's eye witness statement (vanilla content, Blushing Mermaid) that the murderer was a doppelganger - ever since the Seven Suns event, Corwin already associates these creatures with Sarevok and his mage Winski Perorate. This repeats in Candlekeep, doppelgangers everywhere. So it is clear that Sarevok is responsible for Scar's death with one of his many doppelgangers just being the tool. Those doppelgangers are never treated in the game as individual personalities (how could they, they just immitate anyone), I do not think that you can find a specific one and hold him responsible for the deed?

 

PS - Scar's corpse in the Stormhorns appears in Sandrah RtF (together with Brage's body) and this is a long, long time after the BG1 events evn after ToB end, so there is really no compatibility issue here. Anything can have happened to the retired Scar meanwhile.

Edited by Roxanne, 04 January 2018 - 02:53 AM.

[jastey]

Quote

So the Scar scene to be alive but retiring complements that storyline perfectly.

Indeed, this sounds perfect for compatibility!

 

Quote

PS - Scar's corpse in the Stormhorns appears in Sandrah RtF (together with Brage's body) and this is a long, long time after the BG1 events evn after ToB end

Ah, I see. That's indeed something else entirely.

 

Concerning my statement that she is not interested in finding the real murderer (in SoD). This is what she tells the PC in different variations (according to her level of believing in the PC's innocence):

Quote

Maybe you are innocent. Maybe the eyes of all those who saw you standing over Skie's corpse deceived them. It doesn't matter. The city is all that matters now. My father taught me that a hero—a real hero—is prepared to sacrifice <PRO_HIMHER>self for the greater good. They called you the hero of Baldur's Gate. Now you have the chance to earn the name.
(StrRef: 239443)

And also:

Quote

For the benefit of those who still believe in you. They called you the hero of Baldur's Gate. A true hero will sacrifice <PRO_HIMHER>self for the greater good. Give the city a chance to heal. Please.
(StrRef: 239448)

So, the Captain in charge of the city's official enforcements tells the PC to take on the guilt so the city can come to a rest - what other conclusion could I draw than that she is not interested in finding the real murderer, not interested in proving the PC's innocence, but wants to have the possibility to "close the case" the easiest way possible? On the expence of the PC's life!

(This was a real WTF moment for me when playing the game.)

 

She also says the following (I think if talking about how Imoen still believes in the PC's innocence):

Quote

She has the luxury of doubt. She wasn't there. She didn't see you standing over the body, a bloody dagger in hand...
(StrRef: 239447)

Problem is: Did Corwin? Because she was not in my group at that time. And the PC was lying on the ground at the end of the cutscene, when Duncan is already there. And there was no dagger.

 

It's over-dramatizing writing like this that throws me off a character, and a story. Do you have intention to tune this down a little or maybe even skip this nonsense line?

 

 

Quote

One of the ideas of my mod is that - of course, depending on the way the player lets the protagonist act - the relationship between her and PC can become such, that she can keep her trust in the hero even after Dragonspear.

I'm looking foreward to having this option in the game. This mod will be a must have for EET.

[Roxanne]

jastey, on 04 Jan 2018 - 17:38, said:

Quote

So the Scar scene to be alive but retiring complements that storyline perfectly.

Indeed, this sounds perfect for compatibility!

 

Quote

PS - Scar's corpse in the Stormhorns appears in Sandrah RtF (together with Brage's body) and this is a long, long time after the BG1 events evn after ToB end

Ah, I see. That's indeed something else entirely.

 

Concerning my statement that she is not interested in finding the real murderer (in SoD). This is what she tells the PC in different variations (according to her level of believing in the PC's innocence):

Quote

Maybe you are innocent. Maybe the eyes of all those who saw you standing over Skie's corpse deceived them. It doesn't matter. The city is all that matters now. My father taught me that a hero—a real hero—is prepared to sacrifice <PRO_HIMHER>self for the greater good. They called you the hero of Baldur's Gate. Now you have the chance to earn the name.
(StrRef: 239443)

And also:

Quote

For the benefit of those who still believe in you. They called you the hero of Baldur's Gate. A true hero will sacrifice <PRO_HIMHER>self for the greater good. Give the city a chance to heal. Please.
(StrRef: 239448)

So, the Captain in charge of the city's official enforcements tells the PC to take on the guilt so the city can come to a rest - what other conclusion could I draw than that she is not interested in finding the real murderer, not interested in proving the PC's innocence, but wants to have the possibility to "close the case" the easiest way possible? On the expence of the PC's life!

(This was a real WTF moment for me when playing the game.)

 

She also says the following (I think if talking about how Imoen still believes in the PC's innocence):

Quote

She has the luxury of doubt. She wasn't there. She didn't see you standing over the body, a bloody dagger in hand...
(StrRef: 239447)

Problem is: Did Corwin? Because she was not in my group at that time. And the PC was lying on the ground at the end of the cutscene, when Duncan is already there. And there was no dagger.

 

It's over-dramatizing writing like this that throws me off a character, and a story. Do you have intention to tune this down a little or maybe even skip this nonsense line?

 

 

Quote

One of the ideas of my mod is that - of course, depending on the way the player lets the protagonist act - the relationship between her and PC can become such, that she can keep her trust in the hero even after Dragonspear.

I'm looking foreward to having this option in the game. This mod will be a must have for EET.

 

Ah, I thought you meant Scar's murderer but you referred to the SoD culprit, The talk she has with the protagonist in prison.

 

Spoiler

~Even after everything that's happened in my life, I'm still just a stupid girl, it's important for me you know that I don't doubt your innocence. It doesn't change anything but it's...precious to me.~

~Don't lose hope ever. In any way let's look at current facts. Only if we get you out of this town we can win the necessary time to proof your innocence and restore your reputation. Face the facts. I do.~  
=~I must go now, <CHARNAME>. This is not easy for me and I know it's neither for you. Farewell.~

 

You get this alternative banter, if you have convinced her during BG1 (e.g.by saving Eltan) and SoD (by your decisions at some crucial points) of your character. She will state already when you find the dead girl that she thinks you are framed. She will come to the cells to give above lines and some others (also depending on romance status).

 

I tried to express that on one hand she believes the protagonist but on the other decides not to follow you into Amn. She stays with her duties for the city and her daughter at SoD end, hoping the truth can be found over time.  (This is like in the movies, it allows for a possible sequel in SoA to let the hero return to BG, proof innocent and re-join with Corwin.)

 

The original (two) options for her reactions are still there, the additional ones only fire if you did her BG1 contents in the right way and also convinced her during SoD (means also that she must be in party during SoD) .

Edited by Roxanne, 04 January 2018 - 02:58 PM.

[jastey]

Sounds good!

(I realized after your reply that writing "S." wasn't clear, I wanted to prevent spoilering without having to use spoiler tags.)

[Roxanne]

PaulaM, on 27 Jan 2018 - 19:42, said:

Hi,

 

I tried the mod and you can install it on EET even in a running game if you do it before you cross the bridge into Baldur's Town and talk to Scar. Worth mentioning, I guess.

Yes, this should work.

PaulaM, on 27 Jan 2018 - 19:42, said:

The idea to have her earlier in the party rather than after SoD is great. It very much fits for her and it's a new aspect to see the town and Sarevok from Flaming Fist view. It's also good for EET story line when she comes in SoD in command of the Fist against Caelar because she kept the loyal soldiers together against Angelo and Sarevok. It makes much sense.

I have no plan to make her re-appear in SoA or later, at least not as a joinable NPC. For me. she stays true to herself by staying with her roots in her town. After SoD she is second in command unter Duke Eltan, nothing that a mother with a little daughter gives up to follow a bhaalspawn. This is about responsibility.

If some other modder picks that up, there is nothing to prevent it, it just would not feel right to her personality for me.

PaulaM, on 27 Jan 2018 - 19:42, said:

I hope and suggest that the mod maybe add more Corwin contents to SoD. At the moment it seems it's the existing contents with some lines different if you knew her before SoD. And the end is much more fitting with her really saying that the hero is innocent.

I tried to keep the level of Corwin interactions at the *laconic* level of the original NPC. The BG1 and the SoD Corwin are supposed to appear seamless.

PaulaM, on 27 Jan 2018 - 19:42, said:

What I'm really missing is that she doesn't have much interaction with Sandrah although it's the same author?

Maybe you did not see it because you installed Corwin after Sandrah. Just guessing from your install hint above. Crossmod for the two NPCs is in Sandrah not in Corwin.

Edited by Roxanne, 27 January 2018 - 12:24 PM.

[Roxanne]

verlaine, on 23 Feb 2018 - 12:17, said:

Hello Roxanne,

 

First excuse me for hijacking this thread but it's the most appropriate I could find for me question.

 

Does any of this sound familiar to you.

During SoD

 

Quote

- When you meet with Caelar the second time at Dead Man's Pass, you (given some conditions), get the option to overrule/convince your allies and go with her.
- Haphernaan rages, but you convince Caelar about his betrayal plans, fight breaks out, you defeat the traitor and become allies.
- You agree to perform the ritual and accompany Caelar to Avernus. The crusaders dissolve, the Flaming Fist moves into Dragonspear and secures it.
- You fight your way through to the demon together with Caelar, free the uncle, Caelar takes responsibility for her errors and seals the portal like in original.
- You return to surface, greeted hero again, celebrate good outcome. Night time murder and the rest of the original plot...

Most events would use existing globals, cutscenes etc. The big battle of Dragonspeare would not take place, you'd jump right to the setup where the troupes are already in the castle.

 

Later In ToB you get a chance to to free Caelar from hell and have her join you. That way you had a party with all your old opponents Sarevok/Irenicus/Caelar against the Five and Meli.

Again, if this is an error, I apologize for the intrusion.

Ooops - ghosts of the past.

I was not aware that so much of it ever got public?

The mod was never finished nor released...

 

And, yes, this is the right topic for it. The Corwin mod is the direct result of my Caelar Return mod having been cancelled.

 

When SoD was first released, I had in deed the feeling that those dialogue options about joining with Caelar and somehow getting a peaceful outcome were missing in the game.

In addition the idea to add Caelar to the ToB party just like the other former opponents sounded compelling.

 

I went as far as writing and coding the part where the hero left the coalition to join Caelar. I also did the ToB rescue and Caelar NPC for ToB stuff. So there is a beginning and an end but no main body.

However, before I started the SoD alternative plot, I was made aware that another Caelar returns mod was about to be published.

This is why I cancelled the mod and did Corwin instead. And ...that is that.

[Roxanne]

verlaine, on 23 Feb 2018 - 12:48, said:

Ha, I knew I was on the right track here.

 

So, any chance for this mod to be done? That other Caelar mod was never released either?

 

Unlikely.

 

1. The other mod may still be under construction while mine is not.

2. I have slightly changed my attitude towards SoD and Caelar now that I played that campaign more often. I like the part now far better than during the first two plays. I like Caelar and her attitude/justification far less than initially. Maybe I do not like her enough to want her again in ToB.

3. Not sure if the bean dogs may still do something

4. I feel reluctant to by-pass such a large part of the game. I think that the battle of Dragonspear should still take place, probably by Ashatiel and De Lancie getting into quarrels while the crusaders are about to retreat and then the fight starts despite the hero's best intention. So a bit more to the plot would be required.

Edited by Roxanne, 24 February 2018 - 10:54 AM.

[Roxanne]

verlaine, on 24 Feb 2018 - 09:43, said:

"Unlikely" is not "No".

 

Points 1 + 3 may not be valid anymore.

 

Point 4 could be solved just like you already described.

Point 2 could be resolved as well by providing the protagonist with two options

a) actually side with her because you believe in the validity of her mission

b) solve the Dragonspear problem by infiltrating Caelar in order to prevent the dying of many on crusader and alliance side. You do not fneed to ollow her reasoning and justification. You are just the hero doing the practical thing at hand.

 

You afterwards get the ToB option if she survives any of the scenarios - and then can decide to leave her in Avernus or rescue her, and even if you rescue her to let her join you or not, and even if you let her join to try redemption or not,,,etc.

[jastey]

Roxanne, on 25 Feb 2018 - 08:14, said:

b) solve the Dragonspear problem by infiltrating Caelar in order to prevent the dying of many on crusader and alliance side. You do not fneed to ollow her reasoning and justification. You are just the hero doing the practical thing at hand.
 
You afterwards get the ToB option if she survives any of the scenarios - and then can decide to leave her in Avernus or rescue her, and even if you rescue her to let her join you or not, and even if you let her join to try redemption or not,,,etc.

If this would be a mod it would be a must have for my install. Not because I want to see her in ToB, but because of the options it provides for SoD - AND the quest it adds to ToB (new ToB content is also cool.)

[Roxanne]

jastey, on 25 Feb 2018 - 08:56, said:

Roxanne, on 25 Feb 2018 - 08:14, said:

b) solve the Dragonspear problem by infiltrating Caelar in order to prevent the dying of many on crusader and alliance side. You do not fneed to ollow her reasoning and justification. You are just the hero doing the practical thing at hand.
 
You afterwards get the ToB option if she survives any of the scenarios - and then can decide to leave her in Avernus or rescue her, and even if you rescue her to let her join you or not, and even if you let her join to try redemption or not,,,etc.

If this would be a mod it would be a must have for my install. Not because I want to see her in ToB, but because of the options it provides for SoD - AND the quest it adds to ToB (new ToB content is also cool.)

Somebody opened a can of worms here.

 

I had started to work on such a mod shortly after SoD release, I had the ToB quest already and the start of the SoD stuff. I was still experimenting with having the alternative from the mod allowing to still keep as much original chapter 11 available as possible (by-passing too much of the original plot would also create incompatibility with NPCs/quests that have events in that part).

I stopped it all when another mod was announced that would do something similar - it sounded like being almost ready for release although I never heard about it afterwards.

I absolutely forgot about my abandoned project until I was asked about it again last week...

 

There are still too many open questions and other things I plan to do. And if at all, it will be pure EET mod, as the SoD part and the ToB sequel would need to be continuous, which is only possible in that setup.

[Roxanne]

verlaine, on 26 Feb 2018 - 07:58, said:

verlaine, on 24 Feb 2018 - 09:43, said:

"Unlikely" is not "No".

 

Points 1 + 3 may not be valid anymore.

 

Point 4 could be solved just like you already described.

Looks like Roxanne was right.

 

There seems to be a mod already to cover Cealar, just learned about this today

https://artisans-corner.com/.

Except for the title of the mod *The Fallen Light*, I could not see much reference to Caelar?

 

Anyway, if there already is work going on, my project will stay in the vaults.