The FixPack is great, I don't think it should be curtailed. And I don't even think contributions to it should necessarily wait until after notifying modders. I appreciate Jastey's concern in asking for that, but I also think that would impose a greater burden on the FixPack contributors, which I don't think we should do.
So by all means, get the fix into the FixPack, that way players get the benefit as soon as possible. And the modders can incorporate it when they get a chance.
But there should be some kind of notification at some point. Otherwise you have this scenario: the FixPack patches v1 of the mod, and fixes bug #1. The modder never hears about it, and in the meantime gets a bug report about bug #2. The modders fixes that and updates the mod to v2. Now the player gets a choice when applying the FixPack: the mod being patched is at a higher version number and the patch may not work, the bug may already be fixed, the changes to the mod may even cause it to be damaged by the FixPack. And the player is asked, "do you want to proceed?" while possessing not nearly enough information to make a good choice. IMHO a prudent player will answer "no" which means bug #1 will be re-introduced into their game.
A quick post on the mod's forum - if it is reasonably convenient to do so - is all it would take to make sure that doesn't happen.
Bug reporting practices discussion
Started by CamDawg, Nov 05 2017 09:13 AM
132 replies to this topic
#102
-me-
-me-
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- Guest
Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:08 PM
But also: I am not so happy that fixes that sit in the BWPFixpack do not get revised as repeatedly as some expect modders to go through the fixpack themselves. And also, sometimes fixes only cover up bugs but do not fix them.
The point about having outdated or incorrect fixes is exactly why it's suggested to check up on the BWfixpack once in a while.
Having a central location where everyone gather and report and exchange bugfixes for mods is an advantage, as opposed to being in isolated forums waiting for someone to come and notify you. Seeing bugfixes for all sorts of mods would mean there's a flurry of activity and would only inspire more to contribute fixes. On the individual forums, people might get discouraged by the lack of liveliness and assume (sometimes incorrectly) that it's probably not worth reporting or fixing a bug as the author may not respond/acknowledge anyway.
And also the point about checking up on a constant basis is also exaggerated a bit. After the first few times, chances are most mods would've become somewhat stable enough in the BWP that it would be less likely for them to have continual bugfixes. Which means you check up on them even less frequently.
And remember, as the fixes get removed gradually from the BWP fixpack and integrated into the mods, BWP would only get smaller and could (someday) potentially cease to exist. Which means it would be easier to "comb through" or "crawl through" its contents. Seriously, all I had to do was read the documentation (those two text files) for the mod I'm interested in looking up, hit Ctrl-F and type in that mod directory name.
Lastly, jastey, people most likely aren't going to stop notifying bugs to you or other modders after following this thread. Hell, I think I might've even reported to you (some years back) and would still do so once I get back to playing. I'm just saying you shouldn't be upset or outraged that someone didn't notify you and made a fix, as long as their intent is good.
#103
enderandrew
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- Member
- 166 posts
Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:43 AM
Everyone here has a shared love of Infinity Engine games and a desire to see them expanded with mods.
People actively maintaining their mods want to be kept in the loop if there are bug reports and fixes. That seems reasonable.
Not everyone has an email address listed in the author field. It is hard to assume or know something is still being actively maintained if there is no contact information listed there.
A reasonable compromise seems to be that any active modder who wants to be notified should be providing accurate contact information, and if that information exists, people should be using it to share bug reports or fixes they have. That really doesn't seem very difficult. Is there anyone who wouldn't agree to that?
Nihilism makes me smile.
#104
The Imp
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- Member
- 5155 posts
Not good, see EVIL is better. You'll LIVE.
Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:51 PM
That really doesn't seem very difficult. Is there anyone who wouldn't agree to that?
Let's recall why the BWP Fixpack became what it was... once, about 10 years ago... the Infinity Engine moding was at a point of pivot. It was to enter a phase where multiple very large mods that had never worked together finally would. People left and came like usual.
Now then, there were dozens of moding forums, newones would be still coming ... enter the men who could merge the large mods to work together and keep things working, with good and bad results, from where to pull resources and keep at it until there was a BWP, a program that would fix broken mods and enable them to somewhat optional mod installs. Now then, people still came and left. Among them, various mod makers, and some of them came back. And they were the ones that were pissed that they hadn't been informed by the changes that BWP made into their mods because they had left and had 10 forum page bug-backlog, that had been fixed by some "amateur". While they didn't have to borther with their own backlog. Cause everyone had moved on... see the state of the SCS...
Now-to-this day, the BWS has for a long while already, made subtle edits that from reading the weidu.log's content, you can tell what is what. Cause if the mod is definitely changed by a BW Fixpack, the log entry in the weidu.log says so. The version flag or component name has changed... that's the obvious.
What's not so, is that these all took not just the 10000 pages of bug reports that have been sidestepped, but also the co-operation of the very much top weidu coders to solve not just multiple of those bugs, but because the bug-producing code had already been copied to at least as many times, making the solution even harder to obtain in clear process... all those would have to be then re-informed, by the new procedure. Go to the 7'th forum and see less that 10 posts made from your 'last' visit 4 months ago, and you will not enter another bug report. Cause 2 of those last 5 post have been yours.
Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit).
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.
#105
subtledoctor
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- Modder
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- 656 posts
Posted 16 February 2018 - 02:19 PM
God someone please lock this thread before it starts up again. Here's the tl;dr:
Modders: "please report bugs so that we can fix them."
Others: "No screw you! I shouldn't have to! And stop updating your damn mods, when you update them it screws up the fixpack! Also, update your damn mods more often and fix all the bugs that I refuse to tell you about!"
There, you've read the whole thread. Now please let it die.
Modders: "please report bugs so that we can fix them."
Others: "No screw you! I shouldn't have to! And stop updating your damn mods, when you update them it screws up the fixpack! Also, update your damn mods more often and fix all the bugs that I refuse to tell you about!"
There, you've read the whole thread. Now please let it die.
Edited by subtledoctor, 16 February 2018 - 02:20 PM.
#106
-me-
-me-
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- Guest
Posted 16 February 2018 - 04:21 PM
Here's an alternate TLDR, from a different perspective.
Modders: "please report bugs so that we can pretend to fix them 'cause we can't be bothered. Please also notify us every time you make a fix so that we can, once again, do nothing about it except possibly accuse you of smuggling in tweaks in the guise of fixes."
Others [in 9000 the voice of HAL]: "I'm sorry, dear modders. You can't have it both ways. I think you know why..."
Modders: "please report bugs so that we can pretend to fix them 'cause we can't be bothered. Please also notify us every time you make a fix so that we can, once again, do nothing about it except possibly accuse you of smuggling in tweaks in the guise of fixes."
Others [in 9000 the voice of HAL]: "I'm sorry, dear modders. You can't have it both ways. I think you know why..."
#108
Almateria
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- Modder
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- 969 posts
most garbage person
Posted 16 February 2018 - 05:43 PM
i reported a bug in a browser game recently, and it got fixed up soon, and i got a thank you
Actual stuff: Almateria's Restoration Project | Icewind Dale 2 Fixpack + Restorations
Skips: Hell Recollection | Fake Import Mod
Assorted tweaks from when I was 14: Alma Tweaks (macOS)
#109
Almateria
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- Modder
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- 969 posts
most garbage person
Posted 16 February 2018 - 05:43 PM
felt nice
Actual stuff: Almateria's Restoration Project | Icewind Dale 2 Fixpack + Restorations
Skips: Hell Recollection | Fake Import Mod
Assorted tweaks from when I was 14: Alma Tweaks (macOS)
#110
GeN1e
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- Modder
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- 1604 posts
A very GAR character
Posted 16 February 2018 - 07:35 PM
God someone please lock this thread before it starts up again. Here's the tl;dr:
Modders: "please report bugs so that we can fix them."
Others: "No screw you! I shouldn't have to! And stop updating your damn mods, when you update them it screws up the fixpack! Also, update your damn mods more often and fix all the bugs that I refuse to tell you about!"
There, you've read the whole thread. Now please let it die.
Let censorship die instead 
Retired from modding.
#111
The Imp
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- Member
- 5155 posts
Not good, see EVIL is better. You'll LIVE.
Posted 16 February 2018 - 11:02 PM
...There, you've read the whole thread. Now please let it die.
Heh, your rabbit ears are showing. Like you actually actually read the thread. Did you actually ? Cause to me it sounds very much that you didn't listen, you just mixed your own experience into what's said in it. Seriously. Especially with the fact that you are on a different OS, you can't really see the benefit either way. Which is why you want to close the thread. Just telling...
Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit).
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.
#112
subtledoctor
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- Modder
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- 656 posts
Posted 17 February 2018 - 06:55 AM
No I suggest closing thread because some people lost their cool and started acting like immature assholes and nobody needs to deal with that shit. There's nothing wrong with arguments - even heated arguments. But trolling and flaming is not that. This thread mercifully died, and now it's been necro'd for no good reason and nothing productive has been added so... what's the point?
Don't do necromancy, kids. Let the dead stay dead.
Don't do necromancy, kids. Let the dead stay dead.
#113
-me-
-me-
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- Guest
Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:15 AM
Is every other thread full of discussions that are always productive? 
You know you could start setting an example of not resurrecting by way of not responding...
You know you could start setting an example of not resurrecting by way of not responding...
#114
GeN1e
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- Modder
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- 1604 posts
A very GAR character
Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:29 AM
No I suggest closing thread because some people lost their cool and started acting like immature assholes and nobody needs to deal with that shit. There's nothing wrong with arguments - even heated arguments. But trolling and flaming is not that. This thread mercifully died, and now it's been necro'd for no good reason and nothing productive has been added so... what's the point?
Probably because you can use the Beamdog forum if you need a safe space, and this forum if you need some freedom.
Edited by GeN1e, 17 February 2018 - 08:31 AM.
Retired from modding.
#115
temnix
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- Member
- 983 posts
Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:55 AM
I need this thread to work out a way to report problems with my future mod. I'm using so many novel features that I'd better provide a place for people to figure out what they want and what they expect.
#116
subtledoctor
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- Modder
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- 656 posts
Posted 17 February 2018 - 02:23 PM
Oh haven't you heard? People don't report bugs to you. You must take on the responsibility of scouring the internet every night to find any bugs that people might encounter, and then replicate the install to find out if the bug has anything to do with your mod, and then fix the bug. And if you don't do it fast enough someone else will fix your bug in the BWFixPack mod, and if you then DO update your mod you are responsible for "breaking" the FixPack.
Alternatively, just set up a thread for discussion about the mod and people can drop bug reports in an easy-to-find place.
Depends on who you ask.
How about a safe space for, like, logic?
But hey, it's really no problem for someone to post ridiculous and illogical arguments, and have a shitty puerile attitude about it, just expect them to be called out as 1) stupid and 2) an asshole.
Alternatively, just set up a thread for discussion about the mod and people can drop bug reports in an easy-to-find place.
Depends on who you ask.
Probably because you can use the Beamdog forum if you need a safe space, and this forum if you need some freedom.
How about a safe space for, like, logic?
But hey, it's really no problem for someone to post ridiculous and illogical arguments, and have a shitty puerile attitude about it, just expect them to be called out as 1) stupid and 2) an asshole.
#117
-me-
-me-
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- Guest
Posted 17 February 2018 - 04:48 PM
I don't like calling you stupid or an asshole. Judging by your frustration, I can see you're already having a bad day as it is. I suggest you take the day off.
#118
temnix
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- Member
- 983 posts
Posted 18 February 2018 - 07:26 AM
I don't care about any fix packs. My readme and the mod thread are going to ask people to post any issues and questions in the mod thread, or they can e-mail them to me. If they don't, they will be stuck with the bugs. Naturally, I wouldn't give permission to change anything about my mod, except on one's own machine. Well, that all is for me to explain. However, a thread like this may still be useful for venting misunderstandings and getting directions, among other things.
#119
subtledoctor
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- Modder
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- 656 posts
Posted 18 February 2018 - 08:01 AM
Yeah, one might think that, but unfortunately it has not been useful so far. Which is frustrating.
Also frustrating is when expression of that opinion gets decried as "censorship..." which, I mean look that word up in a dictionary - it does not apply here.
Also frustrating is when people act shitty towards others and justify it with "go find a safe space if you don't want people to be shitty!" ... but then start crying when you give it back to them.
So yeah it's been pretty useless so far. But I guess hope springs eternal. Good luck.
Also frustrating is when expression of that opinion gets decried as "censorship..." which, I mean look that word up in a dictionary - it does not apply here.
Also frustrating is when people act shitty towards others and justify it with "go find a safe space if you don't want people to be shitty!" ... but then start crying when you give it back to them.
So yeah it's been pretty useless so far. But I guess hope springs eternal. Good luck.
#120
-me-
-me-
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- Guest
Posted 18 February 2018 - 10:53 AM
lol. The dude that wants the thread to die out is the same fella that keeps reigniting it back up with "let the thread die, dammit! let it die!" posts.
Hey Doc, take a chill pill. Really.
Hey Doc, take a chill pill. Really.
