374 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

I still think a posion ability for monks

You know we've been discussing this before, but I truly don't think that monks shoudl ever have poison based abilities - I just cannot understand how a monk would possibly sweat posion on his/her palms... much like an evil clerical or necromany spell. IF the monk wouldn't be immune to poison, then I'd add an ability that removes poison and disease effects from the monks body, and TRANSFERS them to the hads, resulting in poisonous attacks for 1-2 rounds. But I won't accept that they can simply "poison their fists".

Permenant True Sight

This time my problem is whit the base nature of this spell. Mages are no sorcerers, they don't have innate magical abilities - no matter how often a mage uses some spells, or how precisely he studies a spell-school, I'm positive they won't gain innate passive arcane powers. At least not in D&D. Your idea would be nice for sorcerers, if you take a look at them, you'll notice that we use the same logic in that case.

Transmuter:
Permant Golem Body:

See Admamantite Form for Transmuters. Not permanent, but more balanced I think. It works nice .

Shadow Self

I'm still considering this one.

Many thanks for the input however, keep 'em coming!

[T.G.Maestro]

Update: Resistant Skin for Barbarians added.

Note that this ability (along with Hardened Skin) may change for the actual release. We are considering the fact that players can reach more than 100% physical resistances with the combination of some items - paladins and maybe even clerics can do this even without Refinements! - which shouldn't be allowed. I intend to put an end to this oversight from the part of the authors, and this may involve the slightmodification of an item, namely the Defender of Easthaven flail.

[T.G.Maestro]

Possible Update: Necromancers got a boost. Create Boneguard's duration was extended to 10/7 turns, and a new HLA was added (Dark Pact).

Note that these changes may not made it into the first release, though I will do my best (while Littiz will have to ).

[T.G.Maestro]

Update: Arcane Knowledge and Bonus Mage Spells for wizards added.

[T.G.Maestro]

(Possibly the last) Update: Foresight for the base mage table (as well as for kits) added.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

First let me open by saying that I like a lot of the ideas I?ve seen in this mod & agree that HLA in general and the Sorcerers in particular could use some changes.

That said I've got to say that I *don't* like the proposed changes to the Sorcerer HLA at all.

Inner Focus just seems weak and silly. A waste of a HLA slot IMO.

Aqua Mortis, Idol of Frost, Scion of Storms, & Spirit of Flame in particular seem lacking. I don?t see why I would ever use any of them.

Energy Storm Seems interesting in concept buy I don?t see why *anyone* would ever waste a HLA on an ability that killed them. If your protagonist is a Sorcerer this is a game ender. If you have Kelsey, Tashia, or another NPC sorcerer then you surely will not care to loose them once they are powerful enough to gain this HLA. Neat idea for PnP but should not be in BGII period IMO.

Channel Magic is another ability that sounds interesting in concept but I?m not sure that in game execution will be as tidy as you could hope. The number of situations where this ability will be useful are few and far in-between ? and since it is so limiting the temptation will be to do things like have Channel Magic & Tensors Transformation active at the same time. In other words this ability is so limiting that it practically invites finding ways to cheese it.

Shatter Magic & Spellcasting Speed Increase lack descriptions so I can?t comment about them.

If you go with the HLAs as written I would just call this component ?Nerfs Sorcerers.?

[Caedwyr]

The first post needs to be split into at least two parts since the material at the end is getting truncated.

I agree with Rathwellin the Bard about inner focus. Charisma doesn't do anything for Sorcerers in BGII, and +1 to save vs. magic isn't really worth the HLA slot.

Since melee with a sorcerer isn't exactly something I do very often, and I tend not to make my sorc's elementalists, I'm in agreement about Aqua Mortis, Idol of Frost, Scion of Storms, & Spirit of Flame. These would probably be more appropriate for a fighter/elementalist. That said, I realize that coming up with ideas for new Sorc HLAs that properly reflect the uniquenss of the class is somewhat difficult, and these abilities are tolerable until something better can be found to replace them.

Re: Energy Storm. I like the ability, and I think that several work arounds can be found to avoid some of the worst effects. Basically if you are going to have a character put themselves in a vulenerable position in exchange for some serious destruction, you'll want to plan ahead in most cases.



One ability that would be always welcome is a way to increase the number of castings/day and another ability that would allow for additional spells to be learned.


I agree that the sorcerer tables need a bit more work, so by all means make some suggestions for new HLAs that would work. If the idea is good and fits the class, it has a good chance of being used.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Dang! Forgot to log in!

[Littiz]

We've done incredible efforts to find time for this mod when time was basically unavailable for both of us. Now, one or two days before the release of the Beta, after all of this crazy work, I'm afraid major changes to fabric of Refinements won't end in version 1. Actually, I need to release it and take a break from Refinements.

Anyway, if we get several reports in the same direction during BETA testing, we may try to adjust something in a last effort for Version 1.
That said, some answers to the (always appreciated!) comments.


Sorcerers.
They are not mages, they are different. HLAs must reflect that.
The new HLA pool is basically made of innates. That is, they *don't* lose 9th level spells to use them. The new abilities are an addition to 9th level spells. Sure, they lose Improved Alacrity, that's the big hit IMHO.
BUT, they have Spellcasting Speed Increase. With 3 picks of this one (maximum), Amulet of Power, and Robe of Vecna, a Sorc gains -9 to casting time. Time Stops cast with no interruption.
No more floods of spells, but sorcs can become the... uh, "fastest guns of Faerun"!
They also gain Casting by Intent (Permanent Vocalize + Immunity to Miscast Magic). I think these abilities are very fitting.
Elemental abilities. I LOVE them: they also got some of the best visuals, and I think they're very fitting, again something to emphatize the nature of a sorcerer as a spellcaster.
These abilities are usable in a defensive way: for instance Idol of Frost slows all the creatures around the caster.
We provide abilities that we believe fitting, the player then is free to find ways to employ them.
Toning them is possible, but removing the entire block of these 4 abilities is not an option I'm afraid, Caedwyr. We also did 4 new portrait icons for them.
But hey, have you tried them in the last version I sent you? They look absolutely cool

Passive HLAs:
Some of them are meant to be "true" HLAs. Some of them aren't: Arcane Knowledge, Inner Focus, Blessing of Nature, Sustaining Will of the Sword Angel Kit (which actually started this "trend", IIRC ).
These abilities must be picked to gain ACCESS to the Big Ones, so the bonuses they provide are minor. It's a necessary step. He, sorry, life is hard... You won't cast Improved Alacrity that easily

Guardian Angel
True, I like this ability a lot. I don't know if the post is updated, anyway it is a truly good "prayer", as such it must be an unselfish request, or it won't work B) B)

Death Field
Low level stuff is killed instantly. The rest is killed when the entire casting ends. It is a powerful spell, it combines Wail of Banshee and Death Spell in one, in practice. More, since people is DESTROYED, not just killed.
We might want to reduce that time anyway. Two rounds? (one? )

Heretic's Bane
This one has been removed.

Lingering songs
Try the normal song. The after-song effects last twice as long as the normal time. Sorry I can't be more precise.

Precision
Whirlwind (greater ones are already unaccessible to Rangers) can't be used together with precision IIRC.
Don't know what happens with Improved Haste, must check.

Enough for now, TGM may add more comments

[Rathwellin the Bard]

We've done incredible efforts to find time for this mod when time was basically unavailable for both of us. Now, one or two days before the release of the Beta, after all of this crazy work, I'm afraid major changes to fabric of Refinements won't end in version 1. Actually, I need to release it and take a break from Refinements.

That's what I get for not playing BGII for a few months. Else I could have commented way sooner.

[Kish]

Sorcerers.
They are not mages, they are different.

Actually, sorcerers are mages. In D&D, at least.

Mages: Arcane spellcasters, including both those guys who cast spontaneously and those guys who learn spells from books.
Wizards: Those guys who learn spells from books.
Sorcerers: Those guys who cast spontaneously.

The BG2 manual, for some reason, uses "mage" interchangeably with "wizard." In D&D, this is wrong. But anyway, this is a terminology issue, brought up because it makes me twitch whenever someone uses "mage" for "wizard," and doesn't really relate to your overall point.

[Idobek]

The BG2 manual, for some reason, uses "mage" interchangeably with "wizard." In D&D, this is wrong. But anyway, this is a terminology issue, brought up because it makes me twitch whenever someone uses "mage" for "wizard," and doesn't really relate to your overall point.

This is probably because the word 'mage' is gender neutral whilst 'wizard' feels masculine, despite the fact that it is also a gender neutral word (in english at least).

[Schatten]

in reality is there any difference between mage and wizard and sorcerer? in german we have zauberer and magier, too and i dont know the difference, too.

[Idobek]

No difference. It is fantasy authors that usually tend to make the distinction, a la Kish's post.

[T.G.Maestro]

Allright, I'm back, and I shall take the word from Littiz from now on. Lets see the answers:

I agree with Rathwellin the Bard about inner focus. Charisma doesn't do anything for Sorcerers in BGII, and +1 to save vs. magic isn't really worth the HLA slot.

You both seem to miss the point that CHA is indeed a main attribute for sorcerers - sorcerers with more charisma can cast more spells. It is not inducated in the class readme, but it is there anyway. So this HLA is quite useful, since it may grant more spells/level.

Energy Storm Seems interesting in concept buy I don?t see why *anyone* would ever waste a HLA on an ability that killed them. If your protagonist is a Sorcerer this is a game ender. If you have Kelsey, Tashia, or another NPC sorcerer then you surely will not care to loose them once they are powerful enough to gain this HLA. Neat idea for PnP but should not be in BGII period IMO.

Hhohoo, there are several ways to weaken, or even escape the fatal effects of this spell... just think a bit more .

In an unmodded game very few HLAs and spells cause any sort of negative effect

Power comes at a price. We don't want to turn BG2 into a powergaming massacre - the drawbacks on some of the more powerful abilities tend to balance their greater bonuses - and intend to do it in a fair way.

Death Field ? The ?can?t move for 3 rounds?

Most assuredly this will be reduced to 2 rounds.

Aegis looks interesting but again I?m not sure that it?s better than the sum of it?s parts. You can get similar or better protection from chaining several lower level spells together.

If you have the time AND patience during a combat to cast them one by one, then do it . Trust me, you'll find out fast that having those protections together on you in 1 second can be quite useful...

What about bonus low level spells for mages?

No. Mages are already very powerful in Refinements, and they get several boost to low level spells by some magical artifacts.

Foresight may be a little too powerful. -15 AC seems high to me.

Yes, it may be high against some opponents, but bosses won't find it that hard to beat it. As per the description, this one grants the caster an enhanced sixth-sense that allows him/her to know the actions of the enemy well before they perform them.

If Wish doesn?t fatigue a Mage why should DI fatigue clerics?

Because they have very little in common, DI is not a clerical Wish at all. Again, read that description again. DI is the most powerful prayer towards the god of the cleric, and is very draining - in the case of (evil DI, this is replaced by a sacrifical HP loss.

Volcano ? the ?draining effect? just seems silly

Why does it seem "silly"? I think it is very fitting and reasonable. Please specify.

Adamantite Form should probably prohibit all spellcasting instead of only a 30% failure rate

Yes, I think that the chance of spell failure will be increased to at least 50%.

[Kish]

Allright, I'm back, and I shall take the word from Littiz from now on. Lets see the answers:

I agree with Rathwellin the Bard about inner focus. Charisma doesn't do anything for Sorcerers in BGII, and +1 to save vs. magic isn't really worth the HLA slot.

You both seem to miss the point that CHA is indeed a main attribute for sorcerers - sorcerers with more charisma can cast more spells. It is not inducated in the class readme, but it is there anyway. So this HLA is quite useful, since it may grant more spells/level.

In D&D, it would. In BG2, though, spells are implemented differently. Try it and see--a sorcerer with Charisma 9 has exactly the same number of spells of each level as the same sorcerer with Charisma 18. Or do you mean Refinements will be changing that?

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I agree with Rathwellin the Bard about inner focus. Charisma doesn't do anything for Sorcerers in BGII, and +1 to save vs. magic isn't really worth the HLA slot.

You both seem to miss the point that CHA is indeed a main attribute for sorcerers - sorcerers with more charisma can cast more spells. It is not inducated in the class readme, but it is there anyway. So this HLA is quite useful, since it may grant more spells/level.

Actually unless you edit the BG II version Sorcerer class itself I don't think that this is correct. 3.5 PnP this is the way it works, but not as is in BGII.

So are you chaning the BG II implementation? I don't recall seeing that in the stuff I have seen so far in Mod Contents or elsewhere here.

And even if you do get an extra spell or three +1 Cha isn?t worth a HLA slot IMNSHO.

[T.G.Maestro]

Good points, yet we are trying to implement that change. We'll see how it works out.

And even if you do get an extra spell or three +1 Cha isn?t worth a HLA slot IMNSHO

Again, try to get used to this "trick" in Refinements - if you want to gain access to some more powerful abilities, first you must pick a "base" HLA. We follow this logic in almost all tables.

[Littiz]

Good points, yet we are trying to implement that change. We'll see how it works out.

ehm, are we?
Don't hope in my miracles this time , the sorc class is pretty much hard-coded.

Anyway, I have the feeling you misunderstood my words, I only said that the prerequisite is there. Don't forget that I don't know 3rd edition, and I don't desire to turn BG2 in a mix between 2nd and 3rd, as you do

@Rathwellin: try to give us some credit. Sure, something will be unbalanced, but what about the original HLA system? Imho ours is more fitting and more balanced already, at the very least.
In addition, you can give your feedback for possible future adjustments, something you couldn't do again with the Bioware's version of the tables