374 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

I'd like to ask you about the proposed new "Fighter" HLAs (I'm talking about Toughness and Improved Critical, the two new pasive abilities). What do you think, what classes/kits should get them?
They are separate, so some classes should get both while others only one of them.
To start the discussion, my version would look like this:

-Fighters (IC, T)
-Berserkers (IC, T)
-Kensai (IC, T)
-Wizard Slayer (IC, T)
-Barbarian (IC, T)

-Paladin (IC or T)
-Cavalier (IC or T)
-Undead Hunter (IC or T)
-Inquisitor (IC or T)

-Ranger (IC or T)
-Stalker (IC or T)
-Beast Master (IC or T)

-Blade (IC)

[Feanor]

Barbarians don't need toughness at all because they already have a kind of half-toughness effect for every level (because rolls d12 for hit points instead of d10).

Also, swashbucklers could receive improved critical because they are finesse fighters (ressembling much with Blade).

Edited by Feanor, 20 May 2004 - 01:36 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Barbarians don't need toughness at all because they already have a kind of half-toughness effect for every level (because rolls d12 for hit points instead of d10).

True, but by using the Toughness HLA, normal fighters can easily get in line with them - and a Barbarian should remain tougher compared to a simple fighter. If Fighters get Toughness, so should Barbarians IMO.

swashbucklers could receive improved critical because they are finesse fighters

Thats why they get the Whirlwind HLA (quite useful and very "finesse"). Boosting them with IC as well would be a bit too much for a mere thief I think. They AREN'T fighter-class characters, they only resemble their characteristics a bit.

[Feanor]

They AREN'T fighter-class characters, they only resemble their characteristics a bit.

Neither Blades are. If you hadn't chosen also Blades, I would have thought at Swashbucklers.

[T.G.Maestro]

Actually, I only added this one to Blades because a few weeks before there were problems with their table, saying it'd need a boost to further point out their skills in battle. There is absolutely no problem with the Swashbuckler table I think, while I admit that Blades need a slight improvement. Improved Critical would fill this hole. Blades won't get Whirlwind, and Swashbucklers won't get IC. I see this as a fair deal.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 20 May 2004 - 02:12 AM.

[Feanor]

-Paladin (IC or T)
-Cavalier (IC or T)
-Undead Hunter (IC or T)
-Inquisitor (IC or T)

-Ranger (IC or T)
-Stalker (IC or T)
-Beast Master (IC or T)

By the way, that "IC or T" means one excludes the other or that you have not decided yourself yet ?

[T.G.Maestro]

It means that it is likely that I'll add only one of those HLAs, and I'm not deicded which one.

[Schatten]

Also, swashbucklers could receive improved critical because they are finesse fighters (ressembling much with Blade).

agreed and kensai dont get toughness, imo.

[T.G.Maestro]

Agreed to the point that Kensai won't get Toughness, but again, I don't think Swashbucklers should get IC in top of Whirlwind. Too much.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

IMO for the most part Rangers should get Improved Critial & Paladins should get Toughness.

Beast Masters should probably get both.

[T.G.Maestro]

Do you have any good reasons why rangers shouldn't get Toughness?

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I tend to see Paladins more as heavy fighters. They wear heavy armor, absorb lots of damage, and use big weapons like TH & Bastard Swords. There are exceptions, but in the main this is where the class goes.

Rangers on the other hand tend to be more flexable & oriented to finess fighting. Sure some of them can tank but loose their stealth to do so. Rangers seem to fight with more skill based weapons like Longswords, Bows, and the like. It just seems more natural that they get IC if they are restricted to one or the other.

The main reason I see to not put toughness on rangers is that this keeps a nice niche open for fighters. Palies get tough, Rangers get skilled, and Fighters get both.

I mention Beastmaster as an exception since they need all the beefing up that they can get.

In any event I can't really see Toughness working well for Archers or Stalkers. Unkitted Rangers are a maybe IMO.

I do think that Kensai should be able to pick toughness though. If anything not wearing armor should give them more oppertunities to toughen up than normal fighters.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

In fact if I were going to 'refine' Rangers in general here is what I would do:

1. Give them d8 for Hit Dice like the old old style PnP ones did.
2. Restrict them to Chainmail or less like a Barbarian.
3. Grant them +1 to AC & THACO for every 5 levels like a Swashbuckler.*
4. Open up the Beastmaster weapons a bit. Give them things like spears and such that are mostly not metal.


* Archers would not get the additional THACO bonus, but would get the AC bonus.

[Jinnai]

1st and 4th point sound good, but 2nd and 4th go very much against pnp and 3rd really doesn't benifit archers much (and how can you justify giving them AC bonuses)?

[T.G.Maestro]

I'll ask once again:
How much MaxHP bonus should give one pick of Toughness? Currently it is 6HP. And to tell the truth I really fail to see a reason why we should increase it - I'd actually tone it down to 5.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Either way is fine with me. Suggest that you limit the total number of Toughness picks.

+30 HP (5 or 6 picks)
+60 HP (10 ro 12 picks)

etc.

[T.G.Maestro]

My version would have a 5-6HP bonus and would be selectable 5 times.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

If you are going to limit it to 5 picks then +6 seems better to me.

YMMV.

[Feanor]

I tend to see Paladins more as heavy fighters. They wear heavy armor, absorb lots of damage, and use big weapons like TH & Bastard Swords. There are exceptions, but in the main this is where the class goes.

An other reason why Paladins should not get IC : because they usually focus upon two-handed swords and, if they specialize in two-handed weapons style, they would score critical hits on a roll of 19.

[T.G.Maestro]

Good points. Paladins will only get Toughness then. I'm still undecided on Rangers though.


PS.: Littiz, if you read this thread, please drop a line about your opinions!