384 replies to this topic

[Rathwellin the Bard]

First let me make sure that I?m understanding your post correctly. You cite the Shapeshifter Kit description as proof that Bioware only intended for one shapeshift to GWW form to be possible. Then you are saying that the extra shapeshifts per day gained in ToB are a ?bug? on Bio?s part. If I understand you essentially believe that, in the level up tables, they simply replaced the normal werewolf form gained every other level with the GWW form in SoA (knowing that the Druid would max out at 14th level) and forgot or missed this when doing ToB thug unintentionally granting extra power to this kit at 15th level and beyond.

I?m not sure that I agree with that line of reasoning.

I?ll grant you that if Bio intended for the extra shapeshifts to be there in ToB then it would have been nice if they had updated the kit description ? but as it is there is plenty of room for interpretation.

In SoA the existing kit description is 100% accurate.

In ToB, with the extra shapeshifts it is not inaccurate either.

It doesn?t say at 13th level the shapeshifter will gain the ability to shapeshift into a Greater Werewolf form once per day and never gain any more shapeshifting ability.

What does seem clear to me is that Bio intended the shapeshifter to continue growing in power as they gained levels. If anything it is the kit description that is unclear. Once the SoA cap was lifted in ToB it *should* have been possible for the Shapeshifter to gain more GWW form shapeshifts & it *is* that way in the game.

The fact that the Shapeshifter *stops* gaining more forms at 25th level bolsters my feelings about this. Had it been a ?bug? then they would have kept gaining extra shapeshifts all the way to their max ToB level of 34. That would give them 11 shapeshifts at 33rd level. The fact that Shapeshifters stop gaining forms 25th level indicates to me that this is *exactly* the way Bio intended them to work. Shapeshifters were suppose to be able to gain up to 7 GWW shifts. To me this indicates how Bio tried to balance the ToB Shapeshifter.

Bottom line, I don?t think that this is a bug. Without input from the Bio staff I don?t think that we will ever be able to determine this for certain though.

That leaves us with talking about balancing issues. I believe that your contention is that the new Feral HLA ups the power of the GWW form making it nearly ?unkillable? and thus once per day is needed for balance. That?s obviously a judgment call and something that is at the heart of a lot of what you guys appear to be doing with refinements.

I took a quick peek at the resistance changes you guys made this AM. I do admit that my first impression was along the lines of ?Holy Spit!? However then, on the way into work I thought about how I had actually used my Shapeshifter PC in SoA & ToB previously.

First I gave up on the normal WW form about half way though SoA. It just couldn?t keep up with the warrior types. In SoA once I got GWW form I tended to leave the PC in it a lot. Since I only had one shift per day I tried to get the most out of it. I went through lots of critical areas & dialogues while in GWW form.

In ToB, with more than one shift per day, sometimes I did let him run around in GWW form for a while, but more often than not what I did was have my PC in human form. When a big battle started I would have him cast a few spells, then shift into GWW form and join the warrior types in melee. Generally I would have him shift back and forth several times in the course of clearing out an area like Sendai?s lair. Where I got into the most trouble with him was melee. In the default ToB my Shapeshifter PC almost never took much elemental damage, certainly never enough to threaten his life. Instead it was the melee threats he had to watch out for. Many of the ToB foes have insanely low THACOs. Generally they could hit him even with a super low AC.

I see that Feral Spirit does lower the GWW form AC by two, but that?s not a huge change balance wise. The resistances *do* get a big boost, but I?m not sure that they will really protect the GWW from the true threats in ToB. Making the claws act as +3 weapons is a boost but, IMO, this is more of a bug fix than anything else.

The biggest change balance wise IMO that you are making is in not allowing conversation while in GWW form. This makes total sense to me from a logical perspective, but it *does* limit shapeshifter PCs a lot. If they are required to be in human form for dialogue *and* are limited to one GWW shift per day in ToB then this does severely restrict their ability to use their kit?s main power. If your shapeshifter is Cernd, who cares. I?ll miss all of his dialogue and probably never notice the difference. But you can?t do that with a PC.

Given all the balance considerations here is my 2 cents: Allow more than one GWW shift per day. It?s needed and not unbalanced. However if you worry that 7 shifts per day at 25th level is unbalanced then it can be restricted in a number of ways. You could limit the max number of GWW shifts per day to 3 instead of 7 for instance. You could change the Shapeshifter so that he gains an additional GWW shift every 5 levels (starting at 13th) instead of every other level. You could make a new HLA that the Shapeshifter would have to select in order to gain additional GWW shifts.

[Littiz]

@Rathwellin, you're a capable and productive tester, but it's really exhausting to deal with you, you know

Basically, whatever character are you trying/reading_about at the moment, you want it more powerful.
Accept that in Refinements characters are generally less powerful (not quite, actually).
That said, shapeshifters do gain a lot in power, compared to the original versions. Weapon immunities, fast regeneration rate, resistances, melee improvements... and you want more? You want also to be able to speak and cast spells, even though you admit yourself that it makes NO sense?
Don't ask for things you know we won't change. I hate to say always "no", but really you keep asking for the wrong things.

It doesn?t say at 13th level the shapeshifter will gain the ability to shapeshift into a Greater Werewolf form once per day and never gain any more shapeshifting ability.

So am I going to add some fireballs, some Bard songs, and some thieving abilities because nothing states that they are NOT gained?
How many times has this argument been attempted in the forums?

No, that one is clearly a bug, I can recognize one when it is so evident: the spell name for the greater form was simply and wrongly placed at the entries meant for the lesser form, which is meant to be assigned at 1/2 levels rate, and stops instead with no reason after 13th level.
A simple error in reorganizing the ToB table probably; anyway, it gives too many Greater Werewolf forms while stopping the lesser form advancement. I do believe in coincidences, but not in such coincidences
I cannot count how many mistakes of that kind (made by myself or TGM) I've fixed for Refinements alone.
It just was the kind of bug no one complains about

I've kept the 6 lesser forms limit BTW, since the Feral Spirit ability removes the problem at the root.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

@Rathwellin, you're a capable and productive tester, but it's really exhausting to deal with you, you know     

Basically, whatever character are you trying/reading_about at the moment, you want it more powerful.
Accept that in Refinements characters are generally less powerful (not quite, actually).

I apologize if I?m causing too much trouble. Feel free to tell me to buzz off when and if I get on your nerves!

This will be my last post on the GWW form thing, unless you guys care to talk about it some more.

However, I do want to say that in general I?m not trying to say, ?make pre-existing X? more powerful. What I?m aiming to say in most cases is more like ?please don?t nerf X too much.?

I don't want the GWW form to be able to speak. I just have been thinking about the balance implications of it not being able to.

I *really* don't want the GWW form to be able to cast spells. That's one of the main reasons I never used Wes' mod.

IMO you may be reading a little more into what I am trying to say than what I mean.

No, that one is clearly a bug, I can recognize one when it is so evident: the spell name for the greater form was simply and wrongly placed at the entries meant for the lesser form, which is meant to be assigned at 1/2 levels rate, and stops instead with no reason after 13th level.
A simple error in reorganizing the ToB table probably; anyway, it gives too many Greater Werewolf forms while stopping the lesser form advancement. I do believe in coincidences, but not in such coincidences
I cannot count how many mistakes of that kind (made by myself or TGM) I've fixed for Refinements alone.
It just was the kind of bug no one complains about

Actually this is a matter of interpretation. I hear what you say about the table and think to myself ? the original table sounds like it makes perfect sense! Why should the Shapeshifter continue to advance in the ?lesser? form once he has learned the greater? Even at once per day with the greater form why would he ever use the lesser from?

It makes *perfect* sense to me that once the Shapeshifter hits 13th level that he would start learning GWW form every other level instead of the ?lesser? form. That to me sounds like a table that works as intended. Doesn?t sound at all like a bug to me.

[Caedwyr]

I have to agree with Rathwelllin about the progression of gaining Greater Werewolf Form. Once the druid becomes able to Shapeshift into a greater werewolf, it would make sense that they no longer turn into the lesser form. The ability is not a granted ability, but a mater of learning to control their lycanthropy in a more refined manner.

What would make even more sense, is if the lesser form became unavailable and was replaced at level 13 with Greater Werewolf Form. A nod to balance, would be to start back at 1 shapeshift for the new form, and continue with the progression of one shapeshift /2 levels. Since Druids take so long to go beyond 15 or 16, they would not gain very many shapeshifts. Possibly at higher levels, they would no longer have a limit on the number of shapeshifts per day and be able to change at will. From a rp perspective this is what makes the most sense. From a game mechanics perspective it may need closer examination as to how the class is played and what the other abilities are to make sure it is not unbalanced. It is important to remember that just because something looks good on paper, it may not work as smoothly in game.

[Littiz]

In BG2, 1st level spells don't morph in 2nd level spells as soon as you get ONE level 2 spell.
No, you still retain your first level spells, and still have to fight hard to gain more 2nd level spells.
About the revised version of the Greater Werewolf form:

• It *is* a bugfix;
  
• It is coherent with the rest of the game mechanisms;
  
• It is coherent with Kit's description, at last;
  
• It is balanced (or, at most, will need to be toned down...);
  
• Changing it would require major work;
  
• I like it this way.

As I said, it won't be changed

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Sorcerer Innates are not disabled when in Slayer form like normal spells are. Kind of interesting to use Shatter Magic or Energy Storm while running around as a monster.

Is this a bug?


Edit: In related Energy Storm forces the caster back into human form when it renders them unconscious. Once they awaken they are still in human form, can't cast spells, and have an icon to return to human form. I waited a while & didn't see any slayer damage. Physical attributes were normal human.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

The 9th level spell Spellstrike does not remove Channel Magic.

Channel Magic seems to render immunity to the 8th level spell Bigby's Clenched Fist.

Intended behavior or bug?

[Caedwyr]

Casting by intent does not make the player immune to the spell failure icon.

I also looked at the shapeshifter class in a bit more detail and saw that you were right about multiple GWW being a bug. My mistake.

[Caveman]

Found a few minor weapons and equipment inconsistancies for the Sword Angel kit:
*Weapons & the Sword Angel- Able to use the Sling of Everard +5 (WASLING)<Missle weapon purchased from Joluv, one of the bonus merchants. Came from the Baldurdash file BG2Extras and was installed after the ToB patch and before any of the other mods>, Spear of Withering(sper10), <Poison>, Dragon's Breath +4(halb05) <Poison>, Flail of Ages +4 & +5 <w/ the poison head> (blun30c & blun30, respectively), Angurvadal +4(sw1h60) <STR enhancing> Sets STR to 22 for 1 turn, once per day. The upgraded version of the sword that gave the permanent STR bonus was unusable by the Sword Angel. Bracers of Archery can be used by the Sword Angel(although they won't get any benefit from them ). All of the Ioun Stones were usable by the S.A. except for the Bronze Ioun Stone(helm27) and Wong Fei's Ioun Stone(helm34). The Bronze one is correct(allows Mages and Bards to memorize 1 extra 7th and 8th level spell), although it just occurred to me that I didn't check it on a dual class Sword Angel. Wong Fei's Ioun Stone grants a +1 AC bonus, adds 15 to max hp's, and regenerates 1 hp per round, and is usable only by Monks, Fighters, and Kensai. I just thought it was unusual that the SA was prohibited from using it.
The Axe of the Unyielding +5(ax1h15) and Ravager +6(halb11) are not usable by the SA. I assume this was due to the chance of decapitation they possess.
Dak'kon's Zerth Blade, purchased from Diedre(Bonus merchant) <Item # unknown> was also not usable. I don't forsee any reason to use it since its special ability allows an extra 1st, 2nd, 3rd, & 4th spell to be memorized. Again, I have not checked it for a Sword Angel/Mage.
Just a thought: All weapon types that are permitted to the kit that cause acid damage are usable. Are there any future plans to include these in the category of vile weapons, for the purposes of the kit?

[Caveman]

Some possible bugs, nothing that causes the game to crash or any real playability issues:
*Regeneration and Merciful Fighting- The Sword Angel will not regenerate while Merciful Fighting is activated. Both icons are visible on the character's portrait. Once the ability is deactivated regeneration will continue normally. All possible weapons, items, and the potion were checked.
*Sword Angel and fallen status- I don't know if this is a bug with Refinements, Tactics, or a conflict between the two, but the S.A. becomes fallen if they kill one of the Slave Lords on the 1st floor of the Guarded Compound. It should not even be possible to exit to lower level while the fight is still in progress, according to the Tactics documentation. I reloaded several times, but was unable to get it to repeat.

I don't know if this one is a bug at all, but I'll post it here anyway:
In Athkatla, Ryloch, Tolgerias, Ribald, and Lady Yuth all cast an assortment of protective spells when the character(SA in my case) arrived in their respective areas. Conster does(or did, I should say... ) the same thing in Firkraag's Lair. None of them turn hostile though. The strange thing about this was that Tolgerias' spells appeared in the dialogue window while outside the De'Arnise Hold although he was nowhere on screen.

[Caedwyr]

The casting the defensive spells is a feature of Tactics.

[Littiz]

I will check those reports about S.A.
The behaviour with Angurvadal was intentional, as with Vorpal Swords.
I believe many acid weapons are indeed disallowed.

About the falling, maybe you hit them when they were neutral?

[Baltrek]

Those slave guys will not follow you downstairs if they are neutral. If this is the bug that I am hinking it is. You mean as in the old get multiple celetial furies bug, right?

[Caveman]

@Caedwyr- defensive spells: Appreciate that. I couldn't find anything in the docs about it and this is my first time using Tactics.

@Littiz- acidic weapons- I have confirmed that Sanchuduudoku +4(solak1), Frostreaver +3(wsax02), and all the Flail of Ages variants with the acid head are usable by the Sword Angel.

Those slave guys will not follow you downstairs if they are neutral. If this is the bug that I am hinking it is. You mean as in the old get multiple celetial furies bug, right?

About the falling, maybe you hit them when they were neutral?

@Baltrek- Didn't encounter that bug. What happened was that the party could retreat downstairs, which is prevented by Tactics, and some of the Slave Lords(all were hostile) would follow the party. When the fallen message appeared the PC had just killed Ketta, who was hostile(100% certain). This only happened once. I reloaded several times and tried to make it happen again, no success though. I have the encounter saved and can try some more if necessary.

[Littiz]

Regeneration and Merciful Fighting don't seem to live together, it's true.
I fear this is due to the way Merciful fighting is coded.
I don't think I can do much about it, at least not now.
It's not a big issue anyway, and you can pretend that regeneration always requires a bit of concentration

I hope the issue with the fallen status has been a glitch. There are scripts involved, and unfortunately, as you know, they don't always fire/act properly...

I've left the Sling of Everard alone since it is not even flagged as unusable by Cavalier, it has no bullets, and seems a very special weapon. I just want to leave a bit of freedom when possible.
For the same reason I didn't touch Dragon's Breath and similar weapons... they also have other effects (Flail of Ages has the slow effect), might be needed in some circumstances, and S.A. can only be proficient with them in any case.
I've flagged a couple of in-game totally acid-oriented weapons as unusable, fixed the issue with the Zerth Blade, and applied a change to Wong Fei's Ioun Stone (including the description): it is now usable by monk, "unkitted" fighter, kensai and sword angel.


Final Build:
I've made some clean up to the installing procedures, fixed the last reported issues and a couple of new ones, and neutralized the Balthazar's component.
I consider the current one the FINAL build, Version 1 is ready to be released.
Just wait a day or two for TGM to return

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Final Build:
I've made some clean up to the installing procedures, fixed the last reported issues and a couple of new ones, and neutralized the Balthazar's component.
I consider the current one the FINAL build, Version 1 is ready to be released.
Just wait a day or two for TGM to return

That's a pretty big announcement.

Anyway, yet another bug report:

Channel Magic
This high level ability allows a sorcerer to completely protect himself from all damaging magical effects and devour spells centered on him. For a short time the sorcerer will become immune to magical damage and certain death effects.

Does not protect against the damage done by Incendiary Cloud.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Grabbed one of my few old savegames that made it to the new PC.

In one Jan was at around 6.5 mil XP. CLUAed him to 7.5. The Death Field HLA was not greyed out and I was able to pick it for him. The spell did not appear in his spell book.

Jan also alreay had Dragon's Breath from the orginal HLA however he was able to pick it again from your ToBR HLA table. The spell now appears twice in his spellbook.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Not really a bug per-se but probably more of an implementation issue.

When using one of the 4, become one with magic aura abilities, i.e. Aqua Mortis, Idol of Frost, etc. it is possible to select a second one from the special ability bar. The character goes through the motions of ?casting? and burns the use of the second ability but does not manifest it.

I?m pretty sure that only one ?aura? at a time should be active, but it?s a bit deceptive that you can still appear to select a second one. Any way to disable this or have the first one canceled and the second one activated when this situation arises?

[Baltrek]

I consider the current one the FINAL build, Version 1 is ready to be released.

With much anticipation.

[Littiz]

Does not protect against the damage done by Incendiary Cloud.

Which happens to be fire damage, not magic damage...

Grabbed one of my few old savegames that made it to the new PC.

In one Jan was at around 6.5 mil XP. CLUAed him to 7.5. The Death Field HLA was not greyed out and I was able to pick it for him. The spell did not appear in his spell book.

Jan also alreay had Dragon's Breath from the orginal HLA however he was able to pick it again from your ToBR HLA table. The spell now appears twice in his spellbook.

Please, let's try to do some more serious reports...
How can you expect our new HLA system to work with savegames that already have messed with the old system?
The Jan's problem should be solved with a new game as well.

The character goes through the motions of ?casting? and burns the use of the second ability but does not manifest it.

You should get a feedback message like that:
"You cannot use this ability while Idol of Frost is active."
Hasn't it appeared?
This is the only possible solution (the other option is to disable all innate spellcasting).
This is also the solution used for many of the original BG2 spells to prevent unlegal stacking. It's not an issue for me, that's the way the game works...

In any case, Version 1 is closed by now