384 replies to this topic

[Littiz]

Since when are you a tester, Rathwellin?

Observed Bug - Greater Werewolf Form does not have the correct THACO or Number of Attacks after refinements is installed.

If I remember right, those values are kinda intentional. I'll check when I have time.
I fear we'd have to find an agreement about what the "correct" values are, before anything else...

[T.G.Maestro]

Since when are you a tester, Rathwellin?

Ooops.. hehe.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Observed Bug - Greater Werewolf Form does not have the correct THACO or Number of Attacks after refinements is installed.

If I remember right, those values are kinda intentional. I'll check when I have time.
I fear we'd have to find an agreement about what the "correct" values are, before anything else...

As indicated above the pre-refinements Shapeshifter has 3 attacks. Post refinements it's 2. Are you saying that you guys changed this intentionally?

THACO could go either way. I'm pretty sure that it is supposed to be set to 6, a druid's natural max, but it functions the same with or without refinements.

[T.G.Maestro]

Hmm, I'm pretty sure that Rathwellin is right here - the number of attacks should be 3 in Greater Werewolf form, and the THAC0 should be definitely lower than 12. Could you change these values for the next version of the beta Littiz? Of course the docs should change as well.

[Littiz]

Hm, fixed.
Are you sure about the thac0?
You get 21 strenght too.

[T.G.Maestro]

Are you sure about the thac0?
You get 21 strenght too.

The paws shouldn't give extra THAC0 bonus, so we don't have to bother with them - though you may have a point with that 21 STR.. what is the overall THAC0 value after the STR bonus?

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I'm pretty sure that 21 str gives +4 THACO.

Cernd's Base THACO was 12 & his final THACO was 8.

Even with a Base THACO of 6 the final THACO will be 2.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Let me also suggest that setting the base THACO to 6 also *limits* the power.

Take the case of a dual class Shapeshifter 13 / Fighter 21 without setting the base THACO he would use his default of 0 ... that would be one heck of a GWW form....

[T.G.Maestro]

TGM, maybe you were doing a similar mess with swashimoen, who knows, maybe you used the starting autosave...

Nope. I even tried to reinstall all mods and install them in the most "reasonable" order - no. Something has problems with hte SwashImoen component, but maybe I'll try it again - any instructions?

[Stone Wolf]

Let me also suggest that setting the base THACO to 6 also *limits* the power.

Take the case of a dual class Shapeshifter 13 / Fighter 21 without setting the base THACO he would use his default of 0 ... that would be one heck of a GWW form....

Yes, and it's quite fun too.

[Littiz]

Nope. I even tried to reinstall all mods and install them in the most "reasonable" order - no. Something has problems with hte SwashImoen component, but maybe I'll try it again - any instructions?

It's not a matter of "most reasonable" order, it's a matter of *messed* orders.

I think the following might have happened.
You install Refinements, which creates many invisible kits. You start a new game. The BALDUR.BCS script, updated by Refinements, notices that in party there is a Swashbuckler, dualled to mage, not yet reactivated.
So it applies a new, invisible kit to Imoen, equivalent to the Swash but with a few technical differences. Let's say this kit is placed in position 41 of the KITLIST.2da.
Then the game immediately autosaves.

Then you exit the game, and do some mess with other mods (you mentioned upgrading Tacticts for instance).
When you reinstall stuff in a DIFFERENT order, that new kit used for Imoen might go in a different position, for example, 43.

BUT, your savegame still points to position 41, and who knows what the hell is now placed in position 41.

If this isn't the problem, then I'm clueless again.
It should be a mod that modifies scrolls (other than Ease of Use) or one that modifies Imoen in its turn. But *you* should know better what those mods do, since you have installed them

[T.G.Maestro]

Actually, I didn't install any mod components that would alter scrolls or Imoen.

When I first encountered this scroll problem of her's, I uninstalled everything. After this I installed them one by one, following that "logical" order. No re-installations, deleted components, etc. - simply pure installations. The problem was still there. And I wasn't trying to continue my game from the autosave or anything like that -I started at least 2-3 new games with different characters (even a mage). Everything was fine, except that Imoen couldn't use scrolls.

Could you give me an advice maybe?

[Littiz]

The one I've given already: try to isolate the guilty mod.
Sorry, if you don't know what those mods do (I personally don't know some of them at all) and you don't have any suspicions, I don't see any other way...

Install Refinements, and try a NEW game. Then install another mod and repeat. You could avoid the mods already used, with no problems, by the other testers

[T.G.Maestro]

I'll do that, but only after I return (after the 18th of April).

[Caedwyr]

I'll toss this in here, since it seems the closest to a bug than anything else.

The swashbuckling Imoen runs out of HLA choices at level 27 Mage class. The non-swashbuckling Imoen runs out earlier.

Aerie runs out of HLA choices at level 23 Cleric, level 19 mage.

Now, the argument about the scribe scrolls ability being overpowered if unlimited choices are done, isn't really that good, since I find I have a ~50% or more failure rate when trying to scribe time stop scrolls. If the player chooses this ability exclusively in order to be able to print out large quantities of the scroll, then they cheat themselves out of many of the other great HLAs. Even then, there are much easier ways to cheese the game than wasting all your picks on the scribe scroll ability. I don't see this ability being game unbalancing. There are much easier ways to accomplish the same effect.

[Littiz]

The swashbuckling Imoen runs out of HLA choices at level 27 Mage class. The non-swashbuckling Imoen runs out earlier.

Can you expand on this?
They should be using exactly the same table...

About Scribe Scrolls: 3 picks can do for now.
There will be other versions, this one needs to be closed, or we'll never finish it.

[Caedwyr]

Sorry, I'll clear that bit up. The swashbuckling Imoen has more experience in her rogue class, so what I actually meant was that there is the chance that the default imoen will have more levels in which she cannot choose a HLA. Also, since the default imoen starts out at a higher mage level, she will get to level 27 quicker than the swashbuckling Imoen. The experience stays the same, but the starting point moves.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

In case you couldn't guess the the above post was mine.

[Littiz]

In case you couldn't guess the the above post was mine.

Sigh... I guessed, don't worry...
Anyway, the bug (which I fixed) was in the original game. Quoting the description:

At 13th level gains the ability to change into a greater werewolf once per day.

Given the regular structure of the table the mistake was almost called for, and they just went on with a new Greater form every two levels.
Trust me, it was a bug.

In any case, with Refinements installed the Greater Werewolf form is a real Juggernaut (you should have noticed), simply unkillable, so there's no doubt that it must remain once/day.
I realize the stun effect can be a little annoying, but the readme explains why it is there; also, since shapeshifters got a huge boost all in all, and shapeshifting can be done at will after Feral Spirit, some little anti-abuse countermeasure had to be placed