This topic is lockedOh.Baltrek, Greater Werewolves ARE indeed immune +2 weapons, even if you like it or not.
EEk! Seems like most everyone in ToB would not be able to hurt them!Heck I would probably be OK with +3 or less.
Bugs for v1.x
Started by T.G.Maestro, Dec 18 2003 12:11 PM
384 replies to this topic
#161
Baltrek
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 06:47 AM
#162
Rathwellin the Bard
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 06:57 AM
Your Shapeshifter shouldn't be in GWW *every* battle.EEk! Seems like most everyone in ToB would not be able to hurt them!Heck I would probably be OK with +3 or less.
Since GWW is useable 1x per day *and* your Shapeshifter can't talk or cast spells in this form it has to be used with care IMO. So if you choose to go to GWW in a particular battle then there should be some benifit.
If shapeshifters still got the 7x per day shifts that they had pre-refinements I would agree that power levels would need to be less. But as is I don't really see a problem.
#163
Baltrek
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 07:19 AM
Good point.
#164
Caedwyr
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 08:24 AM
The only change I could see making is to use weidu to change the flag in each of the five's weapons so they are considered cold iron. Whats the point of giving the immunity if everyone and their brother has the weaponry to bypass it?
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#165
T.G.Maestro
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 09:22 AM
Who said that we intend to change ALL weapons? No, only a few of them, but bosses and a few special opponents will most likely have this bonus effect applied to their weapons.Whats the point of giving the immunity if everyone and their brother has the weaponry to bypass it?
Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!
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#166
Littiz
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 10:31 AM
*I* don't intend to change any, in fact...Who said that we intend to change ALL weapons?
...
*sighs*
...
Do that damn list of weapons to modify, and I'll *think* about this possibility...
Ever forward, my darling wind...
#167
Caedwyr
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 11:11 AM
I'll draw one up later today. The creatures I'm thinking of are, the five, Demogorgon, Mellisan. Unless someone can come up with a good, in character reason why other creatures should have the ability to hit as though they wield a cold-iron weapon, those would be it.
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#168
Rathwellin the Bard
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 11:13 AM
I'm not so sure that Illasera should be coded to have a 'cold iron' weapon. The rest, probably. Surely GWW should have an advantage against *one* of the 5+.
And Balthy seems a bit questionable as well. Eat fists of 'cold iron' were-creature!
And Balthy seems a bit questionable as well. Eat fists of 'cold iron' were-creature!
#169
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 01:59 PM
*Warning: Long post ahead*
*The Gibberish*
In my recent (failed) attempt to solo a kensai through Tactics immediately after installing Refinements, I designed a non-magical katana with no bonuses save for an enchantment level of 9 (for grins). I then scoured CRE, ITM, and SPL files to change all "Protection from Melee Weapons" entries to not protect from "all non-magical weapons" but instead from "weapons of +0 or less enchantment," which has the same effect but allows unique defense-piercing weapons like this katana.
Well, I noticed that in a few files some careless modders added PfMW lines with parameters of (3,1) and (2,1) and so forth when they clearly meant to protect the creature from weapons below +4 and +3 enchantment respectively. I haven't fought any of the creatures these files were linked to, but I know that having a Type (second parameter) of 1 protects from ALL magical weapons. I don't think the first parameter has any effect there. When the Type is set to 0, it protects from an enchantment level equal to or less than the first parameter. If you want to protect against +4 and less weapons, use (4,0) as the parameters.
Why do you care, then?
*The Bug*
I noticed that in your druid HLA folder there's a file called TG#spi2 that includes three PfMW lines with the following parameters: (0,2) (1,1) (2,1).
My understanding of the game engine tells me that whatever creature is equipped with this item is immune to "all non-magical weapons," "all magical weapons," and "all magical weapons" respectively. It cannot be harmed by any weapon, period. I'm sure you didn't intend to cause this problem. You probably meant instead to make it immune to weapons below +3 enchantment.
Note that having a single line set to (4,0) will protect from +4 and anything below it. I've tested this and it works for me. Bioware must've changed how that opcode was handled mid-development or someone was sloppy, because their own items and spells include, for example, (0,2) (1,0) (2,0) to protect from +2 and less weapons. All you need is a single (2,0) and it works (for me, anyway).
So, simply change those three Protection from Melee Weapons entries from parameters (0,2) (1,1) (2,1) to (0,2) (1,0) (2,0) or remove two of them and use only one set to (2,0) and it should work fine. Either of those options will work. It all depends on which feels more comfortable to you.
*The "I could be an idiot, but..."*
Anyway, as I said, I'm sure you didn't mean to make this TG#spi2.ITM protect against all weapons, period. You must've meant to make it protect against +2 and lower weapons. I could be wrong, so feel free to yell, snarl, or make snide remarks if necessary.
*The Gibberish*
In my recent (failed) attempt to solo a kensai through Tactics immediately after installing Refinements, I designed a non-magical katana with no bonuses save for an enchantment level of 9 (for grins). I then scoured CRE, ITM, and SPL files to change all "Protection from Melee Weapons" entries to not protect from "all non-magical weapons" but instead from "weapons of +0 or less enchantment," which has the same effect but allows unique defense-piercing weapons like this katana.
Well, I noticed that in a few files some careless modders added PfMW lines with parameters of (3,1) and (2,1) and so forth when they clearly meant to protect the creature from weapons below +4 and +3 enchantment respectively. I haven't fought any of the creatures these files were linked to, but I know that having a Type (second parameter) of 1 protects from ALL magical weapons. I don't think the first parameter has any effect there. When the Type is set to 0, it protects from an enchantment level equal to or less than the first parameter. If you want to protect against +4 and less weapons, use (4,0) as the parameters.
Why do you care, then?
*The Bug*
I noticed that in your druid HLA folder there's a file called TG#spi2 that includes three PfMW lines with the following parameters: (0,2) (1,1) (2,1).
My understanding of the game engine tells me that whatever creature is equipped with this item is immune to "all non-magical weapons," "all magical weapons," and "all magical weapons" respectively. It cannot be harmed by any weapon, period. I'm sure you didn't intend to cause this problem. You probably meant instead to make it immune to weapons below +3 enchantment.
Note that having a single line set to (4,0) will protect from +4 and anything below it. I've tested this and it works for me. Bioware must've changed how that opcode was handled mid-development or someone was sloppy, because their own items and spells include, for example, (0,2) (1,0) (2,0) to protect from +2 and less weapons. All you need is a single (2,0) and it works (for me, anyway).
So, simply change those three Protection from Melee Weapons entries from parameters (0,2) (1,1) (2,1) to (0,2) (1,0) (2,0) or remove two of them and use only one set to (2,0) and it should work fine. Either of those options will work. It all depends on which feels more comfortable to you.
*The "I could be an idiot, but..."*
Anyway, as I said, I'm sure you didn't mean to make this TG#spi2.ITM protect against all weapons, period. You must've meant to make it protect against +2 and lower weapons. I could be wrong, so feel free to yell, snarl, or make snide remarks if necessary.
#170
Baltrek
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 02:06 PM
Well. I do know that my GWW got hit by stuff. What are some of the creatures that could not be hit by melee weapons like you describe. I have played the game through many times, but don't remember anything like that. Let me know what creatures those were so I can take a look at them.
#171
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 02:08 PM
I suppose I should add, now that I think about it, that you may have other files that suffer from the same problem. It's entirely possible that I missed one. I'm more bringing the issue to your attention than anything.
#172
Trouveur
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 03:03 PM
Why not let the normal weapons immunity of the normal werewolf form, but limit the number of shapechange to one by day?
And when the shapeshifter reach level 13, replace the normal werewolf form by the greater werewolf one, who would be immune to weapons + 2 or less.
(I remembered that the werewolves from BG1 were immune to normal weapons and the greater werewolves to weapons +2)
And when the shapeshifter reach level 13, replace the normal werewolf form by the greater werewolf one, who would be immune to weapons + 2 or less.
(I remembered that the werewolves from BG1 were immune to normal weapons and the greater werewolves to weapons +2)
#173
Littiz
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 11:07 PM
@Guest:
Thanx, I'll do some testing when I have time.
But, I used the setting: 0 Enchantment level, 2 (non-magical) type for the lesser forms of Werewolf, and indeed that seems to protect only against normal weapons...
Anyways, the item you mentioned is used by the Ancestral Spirit, which is meant to be a true spirit and not an Undead, so it might be fitting
@Trouveur:
Don't remember if it was already debated in this thread or elsewhere, but I want the final solution to be as close as possible to the intended behaviour.
Also I like the idea that only with Feral Spirit you manage to get all of the immunities
Thanx, I'll do some testing when I have time.
But, I used the setting: 0 Enchantment level, 2 (non-magical) type for the lesser forms of Werewolf, and indeed that seems to protect only against normal weapons...
Anyways, the item you mentioned is used by the Ancestral Spirit, which is meant to be a true spirit and not an Undead, so it might be fitting
@Trouveur:
Don't remember if it was already debated in this thread or elsewhere, but I want the final solution to be as close as possible to the intended behaviour.
Also I like the idea that only with Feral Spirit you manage to get all of the immunities
Ever forward, my darling wind...
#174
Feanor
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 11:15 PM
I'm not so sure that Illasera should be coded to have a 'cold iron' weapon. The rest, probably. Surely GWW should have an advantage against *one* of the 5+.
And Balthy seems a bit questionable as well. Eat fists of 'cold iron' were-creature!
Rathwellin, have you not read my previous post about this ? Greater Werewolves are NOT immune to +3 weapons or more even it were not cold-iron. If an enemy has a +3 weapons (and, in TOB, not only the Five, but almost 75% have such weapons). the Greater Werewolf is in trouble.
The same thing for Caedwyr. If Balthazar fist are +4 weapons, he won't have problems hitting the GWW.
Maestro has told me Littiz made the GWW immune to non cold-iron weapons. That is HIS idea, in ADD it is as I said above.
#175
Caedwyr
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 11:23 PM
And I can attest to the fact that the weapon immunity system in BGII operates on the 'or' principle.
For example, a silver weapon that also counts as a +1 weapon will currently not harm an enemy that is immune to +1 weapons, but not immune to silver weapons. The way the game currently handles this is with special effects on each weapon that affect an entire race or group. This doesn't allow for certain members of a race to be immune to silver weapons for example while others can be hurt by silver.
@Feanor: I'm curious where you found the statistics for Greater Werewolves. I couldn't find the info anywhere, and it would be handy to have for reference.
For example, a silver weapon that also counts as a +1 weapon will currently not harm an enemy that is immune to +1 weapons, but not immune to silver weapons. The way the game currently handles this is with special effects on each weapon that affect an entire race or group. This doesn't allow for certain members of a race to be immune to silver weapons for example while others can be hurt by silver.
@Feanor: I'm curious where you found the statistics for Greater Werewolves. I couldn't find the info anywhere, and it would be handy to have for reference.
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#176
Feanor
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 11:37 PM
@Feanor: I'm curious where you found the statistics for Greater Werewolves. I couldn't find the info anywhere, and it would be handy to have for reference.
Here : www.jobr.org/adnd/monster/
For example, a silver weapon that also counts as a +1 weapon will currently not harm an enemy that is immune to +1 weapons, but not immune to silver weapons. The way the game currently handles this is with special effects on each weapon that affect an entire race or group. This doesn't allow for certain members of a race to be immune to silver weapons for example while others can be hurt by silver.
I don't get your point here, Caedwyr. The idea was that Littiz said GWW are immune to all non cold-iron weapon (even if they are +5), and I said that's not the case. The only GWW in SOA immune to non cold-iron weapon is Anath.
By the way, that is the list of cold-iron and silver weapons in BG2 :
Silver and cold-iron :
Kondar
Sword of Flame
Angurvadal
Answerer
Carsomyr
Azuredge
Slayer Claws
Silver :
Flame Tongue
Albruin
Silver Sword
Flail of Ages (?)
#177
Caedwyr
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 11:59 PM
Ah, I was looking at the problem from the other direction. From the perspective of the weapon and it's enchantment level. You are right about the non-cold iron immunity and the way it interacts with the game. Your suggestion to change the immunity to just a higher level of weapon enchantment sounds like a slightly better idea, and less work for Littiz.
The Werebane dagger, and the BGI version of the Sword of Balduran are also Cold-iron flagged weapons.
The Werebane dagger, and the BGI version of the Sword of Balduran are also Cold-iron flagged weapons.
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#178
Feanor
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 12:41 AM
Littiz : So I say non-cold iron immunity should be in
Littiz, where have you get this idea about GWW being immune to all non cold-iron weapons ? In BG 2 and in ADD, GWW can be hit by +3 weapons. I don't understand why you did such a thing : an immunity to all non cold-iron weapons is more powerful than Absolute Immunity itself and is not even according to ADD terms.
Your suggestion to change the immunity to just a higher level of weapon enchantment sounds like a slightly better idea, and less work for Littiz.
This was not a suggestion. Those are ADD rules and it was not I the one who made them. And, by the way, changing the weapons to be cold-iron it's not such a huge work, it can be done in 1-2 hours.
#179
Feanor
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 03:58 AM
@Feanor: I'm curious where you found the statistics for Greater Werewolves. I couldn't find the info anywhere, and it would be handy to have for reference.
I have one link :
Monster Manual for ADD (www.seads.org/TSR/monbk.htm)
Caedwyr, if you did not find the answer there, I have also downloaded the manual, so I could send it to you.
#180
Rathwellin the Bard
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 04:08 AM
Your second link does not appear to work.
