360 replies to this topic

[Roxanne]

Another view on *respect*.

The work of another modder iinspires me. I like the NPC, I take it in my party and play the contents, It feels odd that my own NPC should share the ups and downs of adventuring life without exchanging a single word with the companion next to her. So my NPC (and by that myself) pay respect to that other NPC by recognising him or her through banters.

 

Being inspired to write crossmad content for another NPC means for me that I pay that one respect. Nothing that I do for e.g Baeloth or Mur'neth.

 

If someone feels offended by such attention, it is a matter of minutes to trash the contents. Nobody gets hurt.

[jastey]

I can only point to Lava's reply about working the crossmod together with the other modder. I understand what you mean, but developping content which in the game looks like content of the other mod without the willingness ot collaborate and respect the other modder's view on his/her own mod is lacking respect for the other modder's work.

[Ulb]

This is what baffled me for the same last 10 years: noone asked what original game authors thought about tweaking their characters by mods, and that's just how it should be, but then when we come to tweaking modders characters that suddenly a taboo because... because of... urgh... ahem, little help anyone?

 

It is pretty simple, really.

 

The people who create video games get paid to do so and the result of their work is the intellectual property of the businesses employing them.

Usually those businesses encourage or at least not hinder modding since it is beneficial to them.

Point in case; Beamdog, who hold the rights to the BG series at the moment, actively encourage modding their games.

 

Modders on the other hand do what they do for free and their mods are (if not legally then at least morally) their own property.

 

 

Also, paying homage is cool and I think no one would make a big deal out of it but cross-mod banters are more than paying homage, they are altering “the original”.

Having the other NPC interact based on your writing alone without consent is the problem here.

 

OtherModNPC: "Hey, YourModNPC, you're the best, also I hate chicken and love noodle-soup!” -> Not OK since it alters the original.

YourModNPC: "I heard of this guy, OtherModNPC, people say he is a total badass!" -> That's fine since it doesn't touch the original.

 

With that said, I don't think Roxanne meant any harm or disrespect.

He/she has done a lot of good for modders/players already and gave a lot of old and pretty much dead mods new live by updating them and making them EE(T) compatible.

Edited by Ulb, 17 August 2017 - 12:33 AM.

[Miloch]

If someone feels offended by such attention, it is a matter of minutes to trash the contents. Nobody gets hurt.

Another option (as others have implied) is simply to have a discussion with the modders in question, especially if they're still active (which is rare these days). Any mod (any work of any sort) has to go through a number of revisions, and it may be that's all that's needed to satisfy any objections.

 

It may also be that the objections will make the previous versions of your mod more valuable, which is probably an unintended consequence to those doing the objecting (sorry, but I did not invent the Streisand effect; I'm just merely reporting it).

[Roxanne]

If someone feels offended by such attention, it is a matter of minutes to trash the contents. Nobody gets hurt.

Another option (as others have implied) is simply to have a discussion with the modders in question, especially if they're still active (which is rare these days). Any mod (any work of any sort) has to go through a number of revisions, and it may be that's all that's needed to satisfy any objections.

 

It may also be that the objections will make the previous versions of your mod more valuable, which is probably an unintended consequence to those doing the objecting (sorry, but I did not invent the Streisand effect; I'm just merely reporting it).

 

I was listening to Levon Helm and the Band (great musicians) today:

 

Forbidden fruit
That's the fruit that you'd better not taste.

[Roxanne]

So, is there any way to keep sandrah in the party without Romancing her? I was trying to see the new quest content introduced by the mod, but I must admity that the character in itself is not likeable and my paladin isn't exactly fond of being two timed.

 

To not add the blatant overpoweredness of Sandrah. (several innate abilities by start? at a level where mages can barely cast two spells? True Seeing as innate at level 3?, several equipment more powerful that you can find in the entire base game? A ring with three improved invisibility and haste by level 2???)

No, there is no way to play the mod without her. She plays a role in it, that is what the name implies.

There is no obligation to use any of those abilities if you do not want to.

[Roxanne]

I meant play the mod, but not romance Sandrah. Like pretty much every other NPC, where you can make clear the PC is not interesed, and the characters stay in-party.

There is not much of a romance with Sandrah in the long term and she will stay in your party if you are not constantly objecting her. Also, she will not kill any other romance you may decide to pursue. The issue with her is that the mod continues for a large part after the ToB final battle and the end of the original game, i.e. for all of that to happen, you both need some relationship that makes you decide to continue with her and not to settle down with any other partner in the end.

You can end it any time you want without breaking anything in the original game- The mod does not change the protagonist's original story, it just adds to it.

[Roxanne]

Roxanne, you may want to review CallistoSan.d. Otherwise, that file will never compile (duplicated file names all over the place)

Thanks, I corrected it - it may never compile because it has dialogue with an NPC which may never become EET compatible.

Edited by Roxanne, 04 September 2017 - 09:58 PM.

[Mirandel]

I meant play the mod, but not romance Sandrah. Like pretty much every other NPC, where you can make clear the PC is not interesed, and the characters stay in-party.

There is not much of a romance with Sandrah in the long term and she will stay in your party if you are not constantly objecting her. Also, she will not kill any other romance you may decide to pursue. The issue with her is that the mod continues for a large part after the ToB final battle and the end of the original game, i.e. for all of that to happen, you both need some relationship that makes you decide to continue with her and not to settle down with any other partner in the end.
You can end it any time you want without breaking anything in the original game- The mod does not change the protagonist's original story, it just adds to it.

Actually, I am second to the request. It might not look much as a romance for a straight man - nothing but admiration of a beautiful woman in a group (after all every single NPC in the game admire Sandrah ) but from perspective of gay man, straight woman or even a lesbian woman it feels awkward. Quite often there is one available answer to any line of dialogs - expressing how much your Charname is sexually attracted to her (and in terms suggesting Charname is a straight male). There is no friendly path or rivalry - only love.

 

I can live with overpowers, over-gearing and sandrah-centrism of the mod (as you said - it's Sandrah's Saga, pure and simple) but when Charname is losing control over his/her reaction that much - it bothers me.

Perhaps an option in PID a la "I like your presence in my party but we are only friends" with shutting down romance dialogs would solve the problem? After all, a battle-tested friendship or love to adventure and nomadic life can be a good enough motivation to continue the travels.

[Roxanne]

I meant play the mod, but not romance Sandrah. Like pretty much every other NPC, where you can make clear the PC is not interesed, and the characters stay in-party.

There is not much of a romance with Sandrah in the long term and she will stay in your party if you are not constantly objecting her. Also, she will not kill any other romance you may decide to pursue. The issue with her is that the mod continues for a large part after the ToB final battle and the end of the original game, i.e. for all of that to happen, you both need some relationship that makes you decide to continue with her and not to settle down with any other partner in the end.
You can end it any time you want without breaking anything in the original game- The mod does not change the protagonist's original story, it just adds to it.

Actually, I am second to the request. It might not look much as a romance for a straight man - nothing but admiration of a beautiful woman in a group (after all every single NPC in the game admire Sandrah ) but from perspective of gay man, straight woman or even a lesbian woman it feels awkward. Quite often there is one available answer to any line of dialogs - expressing how much your Charname is sexually attracted to her (and in terms suggesting Charname is a straight male). There is no friendly path or rivalry - only love.

 

I can live with overpowers, over-gearing and sandrah-centrism of the mod (as you said - it's Sandrah's Saga, pure and simple) but when Charname is losing control over his/her reaction that much - it bothers me.

Perhaps an option in PID a la "I like your presence in my party but we are only friends" with shutting down romance dialogs would solve the problem? After all, a battle-tested friendship or love to adventure and nomadic life can be a good enough motivation to continue the travels.

You are right.

 

If I would only find the time...

 

That whole romance was never really finished and never intended to be the focus of the mod. After all, Sandrah is not so much a standard NPC but many times as well a plot person who travels with the party.

A Romance option was one of the big requests from all who played the BGT beta version for test. My mistake was to do it at all. Now the big work package is to get that out again without breaking anything.

 

Anyway, after the first few chapters in BG1, all the rest is done more or less through PID options you can leave out. And she will not break any of your other love interests you may want to pursue.

 

PS -

after all every single NPC in the game admire Sandrah

This must depend on your choice of companions...there are just as many who either dislike her or mistrust her.

Edited by Roxanne, 08 September 2017 - 11:09 AM.

[Mirandel]

Figured that much (time restriction and size of mod simply would not allow to separate and restructure romance dialogs). Oh, well. But if some time in the future you would go through dialogs - that might be something worth to look into.

 

 

Can I ask you about another NPC from the mod? Jen'lig. Do I loose a lot by not taking her to my party? Really need that slot and do not need another thief even overpowered one.

Edited by Mirandel, 08 September 2017 - 11:26 AM.

[Roxanne]

Figured that much (time restriction and size of mod simply would not allow to separate and restructure romance dialogs). Oh, well. But if some time in the future you would go through dialogs - that might be something worth to look into.

Originally, Sandrah was flirting with some other NPCs not suitable for the protagonist. That made a lot of players jealous and requests like, *Why can't I romance her?* came frequently. I still curse the day I agreed to add this.

I am not sure anymore how much of Return to Faerun must be re-written if PC + Sandrah never had any interest in each other, at least in the beginning?

 

Can I ask you about another NPC from the mod? Jen'lig. Do I loose a lot by not taking her to my party? Really need that slot and do not need another thief even overpowered one.

Spoiler

Jen'lig has her own quest all through BG1 and first SoD dungeon - she then returns home to re-appear in ToB, but only if you had her before. Consider her as a largely independent NPC mod inside the Sandrah package, i.e. you gain or lose as much as from most other NPCs you find in BG1. She just brings a completely different view point to the game and the main story, but this is fully optional.

Edited by Roxanne, 08 September 2017 - 11:42 AM.

[Mirandel]

I am not sure anymore how much of Return to Faerun must be re-written if PC + Sandrah never had any interest in each other, at least in the beginning?

 

Not there yet to judge but there is such thing as "bromance". There are many people who count friends as someone they will do anything for. You do not need romantic lines to follow that passion. I am sure, if you look through the text with straight female Charname in mind you will know what to change/add.

 

Thanks for clarification about Jen'lig. Need to think about it again then.

[Roxanne]

I am not sure anymore how much of Return to Faerun must be re-written if PC + Sandrah never had any interest in each other, at least in the beginning?

 

Not there yet to judge but there is such thing as "bromance". There are many people who count friends as someone they will do anything for. You do not need romantic lines to follow that passion. I am sure, if you look through the text with straight female Charname in mind you will know what to change/add.

I have added some dialogue options for a more friendship-like relationship between PC + Sandrah. However, in order not to break the mod completely, there will be a number of *romantic advances* from her side. This is in line with her personality, she does not hide her feelings and she does not give up easily. Also, she is one to take initiative and not wait for others (e.g. the protagonist) to act. She may finally agree to the friendship path with you, provided that she still finds enough *substance* in your relationship. There will always remain the hints that she secretly loves you in a one-sided way.

 

The option fits into the general concept of the relation between PC and Sandrah and is an extra challenge in a way, i.e. it is easier to gain her loyalty through romance but it is not the only way.

 

I have implemented the basic pre-requisites, it may take some time to polish some thousand lines of dialogue for it.

There is not such a significant impact as the romance was never a main ingredience of the mod. You establish some kind of durable relationship with her and that is taken for granted for the rest of the game. The development of your relationship was always based more on the game's plot and your crucial decisions rather than on your *private* life. The initial love-talks at the beginning of the game have led some players to a misconception in this aspect.

 

One thing that remains open is the PC's decision at ToB in case the love to another partner binds him/her. My initial solution for this is to do nothing, i.e. at that point it is pretty clear for the player what the options are and there is no reason why the mod should pave a way for any of the possible outcomes. The player will decide and the mod will not provide a solution for the possible dilemma it may cause (e.g. marrying a paladin AND following Sandrah to new adventures, or embarking on RtF's story and leaving your pregnant lover behind.)

Edited by Roxanne, 09 September 2017 - 08:18 AM.

[Mirandel]

As far as I understand, most players that do not intend romance Sandrah hit the wall at the very beginning, when answers like that one (under spoilers) suddenly become the only available answers.

 

Spoiler

(When the girls come down from the bathroom their appearance nearly knocks you out)

Wow, Sandrah, you look like the most beauthiful girl on Toril tonight. How my fearless frontline fighter cleric can change into the beauty queen of Faerun in just a few moments will remain beyond my understanding.

Imoen! Wow, little duckling, you are magnificent swan tonight. This can only be Mystra's work. (You bow to your ladies and kiss their hands before leading the company to comfortable seats by the fireplace.)

 

This is the only one I saved, but there were more and also as only one possible answer. The fact, that it fits only a straight male in romance with Sandrah is one thing, but inability to react anyhow else - this is the thing that breaks RP. YOU suddenly decide how PLAYER's character reacts without any options.

 

Sandrah herself can behave anyway she (you) wants. I, personally, even love it when NPCs are proactive. However (!) my character - Charname -  HAS to have at least an option to say "no" at any point of dialog (ideally, several variations of answer to the lines from NPC that require some answer). Different answers can be repetitive, but they have to exist, otherwise player agency is not there, control over players character is lost, immersion is broken and some would simply delete the mod, denying them RP in an RPG.

 

It's not about Sandrah herself, it's about Charnames of different genders, classes and personalities.

[jastey]

I am all with you, Mirandel, concerning player choices.

But, as I understood, being the everyone-loves-her is the concept of Sandrah. I don't think it would be fair if nearly every NPC is falling for her head over heals and - some romanceable NPCs even agreeing to what appears to be a threesome at least in spirit with Sandrah and the PC - but the PC wouldn't fall for her at all.

It's either everyone (because she is kin to Mystra) or everyone else should stay in character, as well.

[Mirandel]

Forgive me, jastey, but I suspect you are not completely serious here

Though I like the idea of Mystra's influence. It would add some complications, but - a permanent charm spell on everyone in the party (with an icon) and options in dialogs like "You never even thought before that you can be attracted to a woman but here it is" could also save the day. Although, somewhere along the road the issue would have to be resolved, of course.

 

With all seriousness, I just had an impression, it's not very clear what all this sudden fuss is about and tried my best to explain why there are complains at all - not about existence of romance (it's fine, really) but inability to RP anything else (because of lack of choices).

Edited by Mirandel, 09 September 2017 - 02:30 PM.