397 replies to this topic

[Greenhorn]

I don't know what author of this was smoking when created it:

HOBJOIA.DLG

but said author should be banned from modding...

I am sure that you really traced down whatever problem you had to that dialogue, i.e your issue is NOT the vanilla spells triggered by the dialogue which may have been subject to change by one or more spell changing mods (one that turns those vanilla game spells into nightmares that destroy your party and the Friendly Arm with one casting).

 

As such an investigation is the pre-requisite for condemming the author of a dialogue to the modder's abyss, I am 100% sure you did that, your accusations are really against this dialogue and nothing else

 

- and therefore your wish has been granted to you:

the mod is deleted and the author banned from modding.

Only hope the same ban hits those who tweaked SPWI217.spl to work in such a way. (Original spell used by the dialogue is Agannazar's Scorcher
(Evocation)
Level: 2
Range: 15 ft.
Duration: 1 round
Casting Time: 3
Area of Effect: 2-ft. by 15-ft. jet
Saving Throw: None)

 

 

 And the original author who granted +1 REP and 400xp for this quest.

PS - here is what my mod added to the game

 

BEGIN hobjoia

IF~NumTimesTalkedTo(0)~THEN BEGIN Stealers
SAY~Little ones come to take away dance ring, hehe?~
=~Little ones will learn to dance flame dance, hahaha.~
IF~~THEN DO~ReallyForceSpell(NearestEnemyOf(Myself(Myself)),WIZARD_AGANNAZAR_SCORCHER) Wait(3) ReallyForceSpell(SecondNearestEnemyOf(Myself(Myself)),WIZARD_FIREBALL) ~EXIT
END

 

And you get +1 REP and 400xp from Joia for bringing the ring and 600xp when killing the hobgoblin - thus the whole episode should be far more balanced than it was before (just to kill a simple hobgoblin for exaggerated reward- even the guards at the FAI could have done the job, why would it require a hero party to do it?)

You are free to disagree, of course, but hero, or no hero, majority of level 1 characters will be killed by this. And implementation too, how some smelly hobgoblin can start dialogue with invisible character, force spell on him, and then force AoE deadly spell for level 1 parties even if they are near entrance to Gaelana's temple? ( that is where I will park rest of the party if ever would be repetition of this quest, to keep them all alive and escape fireball, possible alternative is potion of flaming oil ). Granted, Sandrah and Jen'ling could maybe survive whole ordeal, but what is about level 1 Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid and CHARNAME? With some metagaming knowledge this quest is still easy to solve, but I still think ( without bad feelings on my part, hopefully on yours too ) this is bad idea. 

[Fouinto]

But the fact that I fail to see anything wrong with this, makes me deserve my ban and the mods deletion even more.

WTF ? Greenhorn > you forgot to curse all his descendants ! it should be the basis !!!

 

More seriously, the limit between "greatly improve the balance" and "Insane" is :

 - NOT clear,

 - NOT the same for me and for you,

 - NOT the same for me today and for me last year (the more I play SCS/Tactics and few others, the more playing in INSANE mode is like a walk in the park...).

BUT, anyway, if it's too hard for you NOW, just come back later* (when you have leveled up)

 

It's not like the "Original" Improved Irenicus Dungeon from the mod Tactics (not the easy one from SCS ) than was summoning a Deva when fighting against Ilyich. You were not able to come later

Edit : Or was it Improved Illych ?

Edited by Fouinto, 26 March 2016 - 02:25 AM.

[Greenhorn]

 

WTF ? Greenhorn > you forgot to curse all his descendants ! it should be the basis !!!

 

Won't be the first. 

BUT, anyway, if it's too hard for you NOW, just come back later* (when you have leveled up) 

"Veni, vidi, vici"  In first try, all went more or less well, Sandrah resurrected Jah, so, was happy end, of some sort. Still don't think that was good modding, but by all means, you are entitled to your opinion. 

 

It's not like the "Original" Improved Irenicus Dungeon from the mod Tactics (not the easy one from SCS   ) than was summoning a Deva when fighting against Ilyich. You were not able to come later

I'm sure there are lots of folks who think this is fabulous idea and pinnacle of modding too. Just shows you that opinions and tastes greatly differ. Forcing spells on unseen and invisible characters is just not my cup  of tea sorry.   And no one on this earth will convince me that was good idea. I do regret that I insulted people which I wasn't intended with my bluntness though. But what is done, is done I guess. Currently I would like to know what this means: 

Second time I get it, under similar circumstances, this time in the middle of fight with Rhialto near entrance to Candlekeep, it was between 5 and 6 hours in the morning...

Edited by Greenhorn, 26 March 2016 - 03:43 AM.

[The Imp]

The lightmap of the area is faulty, at least could be.

Edit : Or was it Improved Illych ?

Yes, that is the Tactics component name. Just remind yourself that the fight is a lot easier without an enhanced AI, like the SCS ... as you can draw the opponents out of position, and fight then a few at a time.

[subtledoctor]

BUT, anyway, if it's too hard for you NOW, just come back later* (when you have leveled up) :

In other words, the mod requires save-scumming and/or metagaming?

[Roxanne]

But the fact that I fail to see anything wrong with this, makes me deserve my ban and the mods deletion even more.

WTF ? Greenhorn > you forgot to curse all his descendants ! it should be the basis !!!

 

More seriously, the limit between "greatly improve the balance" and "Insane" is :

 - NOT clear,

 - NOT the same for me and for you,

 - NOT the same for me today and for me last year (the more I play SCS/Tactics and few others, the more playing in INSANE mode is like a walk in the park...).

BUT, anyway, if it's too hard for you NOW, just come back later* (when you have leveled up)

 

It's not like the "Original" Improved Irenicus Dungeon from the mod Tactics (not the easy one from SCS ) than was summoning a Deva when fighting against Ilyich. You were not able to come later

Edit : Or was it Improved Illych ?

 

 

 

WTF ? Greenhorn > you forgot to curse all his descendants ! it should be the basis !!!

 

Won't be the first. 

BUT, anyway, if it's too hard for you NOW, just come back later* (when you have leveled up) 

"Veni, vidi, vici"  In first try, all went more or less well, Sandrah resurrected Jah, so, was happy end, of some sort. Still don't think that was good modding, but by all means, you are entitled to your opinion. 

 

It's not like the "Original" Improved Irenicus Dungeon from the mod Tactics (not the easy one from SCS   ) than was summoning a Deva when fighting against Ilyich. You were not able to come later

I'm sure there are lots of folks who think this is fabulous idea and pinnacle of modding too. Just shows you that opinions and tastes greatly differ. Forcing spells on unseen and invisible characters is just not my cup  of tea sorry.   And no one on this earth will convince me that was good idea. I do regret that I insulted people which I wasn't intended with my bluntness though. But what is done, is done I guess. Currently I would like to know what this means: 

Untitled.png

Second time I get it, under similar circumstances, this time in the middle of fight with Rhialto near entrance to Candlekeep, it was between 5 and 6 hours in the morning...

 

 

 

The lightmap of the area is faulty, at least could be.

Edit : Or was it Improved Illych ?

Yes, that is the Tactics component name. Just remind yourself that the fight is a lot easier without an enhanced AI, like the SCS ... as you can draw the opponents out of position, and fight then a few at a time.

Just for clarification - the dialogue that starts the whole thing off (which is from the Sandrah mod) is one thing - the way spells work in the game is another thing (Sandrah never touches those). The issue here is (and that is one of the main reasons the mod failed for BGT and is now dead) that Sandrah tried to use vanilla resources (spells, scripts, weapons etc) to a large extent. The idea was, that when you installed tactic/spell tweak mods etc to make your game harder or more tactical, then the Sandrah encounters would be adjusted automatically, like when you turn the fireball I use into the Hiroshima Bomb, that is your own choice.

This approach obviously does not work (at least not anymore in BGT).

Since the mod is withdrawn already, it does not matter much, any more discussion is like *flogging a dead horse".

To quote Thalantyr - *And that's that.*

Edited by Roxanne, 26 March 2016 - 05:12 AM.

[Roxanne]

 

WTF ? Greenhorn > you forgot to curse all his descendants ! it should be the basis !!!

 

Won't be the first. 

BUT, anyway, if it's too hard for you NOW, just come back later* (when you have leveled up) 

"Veni, vidi, vici"  In first try, all went more or less well, Sandrah resurrected Jah, so, was happy end, of some sort. Still don't think that was good modding, but by all means, you are entitled to your opinion. 

 

It's not like the "Original" Improved Irenicus Dungeon from the mod Tactics (not the easy one from SCS   ) than was summoning a Deva when fighting against Ilyich. You were not able to come later

I'm sure there are lots of folks who think this is fabulous idea and pinnacle of modding too. Just shows you that opinions and tastes greatly differ. Forcing spells on unseen and invisible characters is just not my cup  of tea sorry.   And no one on this earth will convince me that was good idea. I do regret that I insulted people which I wasn't intended with my bluntness though. But what is done, is done I guess. Currently I would like to know what this means: 

Untitled.png

Second time I get it, under similar circumstances, this time in the middle of fight with Rhialto near entrance to Candlekeep, it was between 5 and 6 hours in the morning...

 

With respect to the CtDs in those early areas, I found that one time and it was related to the mod that added the enhanced lightmaps for night time - they are in general very good but the ones at Gorion's grave, the FAI and the crossroads area south of FAI had those issues. I remember I solved it by putting the night-time maps from the backup into override for those areas and the problem was gone.

[Greenhorn]

 

WTF ? Greenhorn > you forgot to curse all his descendants ! it should be the basis !!!

 

Won't be the first. 

BUT, anyway, if it's too hard for you NOW, just come back later* (when you have leveled up) 

"Veni, vidi, vici"  In first try, all went more or less well, Sandrah resurrected Jah, so, was happy end, of some sort. Still don't think that was good modding, but by all means, you are entitled to your opinion. 

 

It's not like the "Original" Improved Irenicus Dungeon from the mod Tactics (not the easy one from SCS   ) than was summoning a Deva when fighting against Ilyich. You were not able to come later

I'm sure there are lots of folks who think this is fabulous idea and pinnacle of modding too. Just shows you that opinions and tastes greatly differ. Forcing spells on unseen and invisible characters is just not my cup  of tea sorry.   And no one on this earth will convince me that was good idea. I do regret that I insulted people which I wasn't intended with my bluntness though. But what is done, is done I guess. Currently I would like to know what this means: 

Untitled.png

Second time I get it, under similar circumstances, this time in the middle of fight with Rhialto near entrance to Candlekeep, it was between 5 and 6 hours in the morning...

 

With respect to the CtDs in those early areas, I found that one time and it was related to the mod that added the enhanced lightmaps for night time - they are in general very good but the ones at Gorion's grave, the FAI and the crossroads area south of FAI had those issues. I remember I solved it by putting the night-time maps from the backup into override for those areas and the problem was gone.

 

Hmm, those lightmaps from BGT graphic overhaul mod are eye candy, slept till night before leaving Candlekeep just to see it, been very impressed but they come with steep price I guess. There are no problem with small scale battles during nightime, but when is something more serious, there is always crash it seems. This time was wild magic backslahes all around, simultaneous backstab from both Imoen and Jen'ling, Sandrah torn apart between my wish to drink healing potion, cast spell or use ring and her wish to valiantly fight head on, and probably even dawning of another day. In summary, at night whenever too much is going on, game is prone to crashes. Not good...

[The Imp]

BUT, anyway, if it's too hard for you NOW, just come back later* (when you have leveled up) :

In other words, the mod requires save-scumming and/or metagaming?
 

Well, if you can take on the Sarevok and Irenicus at level one, then go a head, but really, your kit(or whatver you use) is OP in that case anyways. The same thing applies everywhere except the Irenicus dungeon, you are not supposed to be able to take everyfight right out of the bat.

This approach obviously does not work (at least not anymore in BGT).

Well, it does... just noting the facts, like going and assuming that the mod featuring a BG2 monster in BG1 portion of the game is going to turn to a fair fight is absurd.
Examine all the variables is important, like the .cre level. In normal game it means nothing other than the level drain death effect will come later for example. Put the SCS in, and your 2 hit point mountain cat is now a 160+ hit point Mountain Lion, just cause you put .cre have a level 21 instead of 1.
Far worse things come if you mistake to make a mage with 16+ as a BG1 opponent, cause they'll have HLAs, and every spell in the book, even if you just put it to have only magic missiles yourself. Cause the SCS adds the spells that the caster lacks.

In summary, at night whenever too much is going on, game is prone to crashes. Not good...

Installing the mod was your choice, now you have the option to fix the fault like said above, or uninstall the mod, for what ever that entails.

Edited by The Imp, 26 March 2016 - 06:08 AM.

[Greenhorn]

 

In summary, at night whenever too much is going on, game is prone to crashes. Not good...

Installing the mod was your choice, now you have the option to fix the fault like said above, or uninstall the mod, for what ever that entails.

 

Uh, entails a lot, might as well demolish whole install then. But this message, it means exclusively bad lightmap? Also, been surfing a little, bunch of people encountered different problems connected with this message. White agnus even released pack with original lightmaps but it disappeared unfortunately...

[subtledoctor]

The issue here is (and that is one of the main reasons the mod failed for BGT and is now dead) that Sandrah tried to use vanilla resources (spells, scripts, weapons etc) to a large extent. The idea was, that when you installed tactic/spell tweak mods etc to make your game harder or more tactical, then the Sandrah encounters would be adjusted automatically, like when you turn the fireball I use into the Hiroshima Bomb, that is your own choice.
This approach obviously does not work (at least not anymore in BGT).

You love blaming other mods for stuff. I fail to see how using the bog-standard vanilla resources makes this any better. Fireball cast at the lowest level, plus Agannazar's Scorchers cast at the lowest level, in an extremely early area of the game you enter at 1st level, equals more or less certain death. With the vanilla spells. This constantly complaining about tweak mods without ever giving any example of them causing any harm... THAT is flogging a dead horse.

Edited by subtledoctor, 26 March 2016 - 06:47 AM.

[Fouinto]

If you don't play a NORELOAD game, I don't see the problem (personal opinion of course )

[Greenhorn]

If you don't play a NORELOAD game, I don't see the problem (personal opinion of course )

Well... I DO.   But that is beside point here, modder's duties doesn't have to include catering to every whim of potential players. 

[Roxanne]

If you don't play a NORELOAD game, I don't see the problem (personal opinion of course )

 

 

If you don't play a NORELOAD game, I don't see the problem (personal opinion of course )

Well... I DO.   But that is beside point here, modder's duties doesn't have to include catering to every whim of potential players. 

Situations that can catch you pretty unaware can be found all over the game, even vanilla episodes.

Take the area east of Beregost Temple with the mad wizard and his basilisks. You can go there right from  the start of the game and you may have missed or not understood the advice from some optional encounters. You meet those beasts and are turned to stone...game over.

Another example - trolls. You can meet them and nothing in the game makes sure you have acid or fire to kill them.

What about that deadly trap in Bodhi's Spellhound area that cannot be disarmed?

 

I take this *surprise* effect as a feature of the game - when you face Sarevok, you know it is the big bad guy and you prepare for the meeting and change the odds in your favour. Sometimes *easy* battles can be the real challange when they catch you unaware - just like in real life.

Edited by Roxanne, 26 March 2016 - 07:29 AM.

[Fouinto]

I also think so.

When I play NORELOAD, I play almost vanilla (or just BGT or EET) to be sure to know everything that can happen...

 

However, most of the time (When I Don't play NO RELOAD), unexpected event/behavior is a good thing

Example : in my current play, it tooks me about 20 tries to kill Firefrag

Edited by Fouinto, 26 March 2016 - 07:40 AM.

[Greenhorn]

Example : in my current play, it tooks me about 20 tries to kill Firefrag

Which version, incarnation or whatever? 

[Fouinto]

Well... normal one... only few tweaks (SCS Smart Dragons, Smarter Mage, Maximum HP for everyone, and another mod that GREATLY increase HP of dragons )

But even with that, Firefrag is the only Dragon I have not killed the 1st try

[Greenhorn]

Well... normal one... only few tweaks (SCS Smart Dragons, Smarter Mage, Maximum HP for everyone, and another mod that GREATLY increase HP of dragons )

But even with that, Firefrag is the only Dragon I have not killed the 1st try

Not bad. But there are far more scarier Firkraag's  and other monstrosities out there.   I myself included few chosen ones. It will be interesting when we make acquaintance...

[kreso]

Fireball cast at the lowest level, plus Agannazar's Scorchers cast at the lowest level, in an extremely early area of the game you enter at 1st level, equals more or less certain death. 

level 1 vanilla Fireball is 3d6 no save damage, + 2d6 is save is failed. In theory, you can survive this with some innate fire resistance/luck on rolls/high HP.

If Scorcher is also cast, you're very likely dead, unless you're playing some nonsensical kit like Drow Battle Monger (livin' la vida loca in Candlekep....  )etc.

No mods I know of tweak Fireball to unrecognizable status (bar Spell50 mod, but that's for high levels) - SRevisions mostly changes saving throw (to breath), Spellpack makes AoE smaller.

[The Imp]

level 1 vanilla Fireball is 3d6 no save damage, + 2d6 is save is failed. In theory, you can survive this with some innate fire resistance/luck on rolls/high HP.

Yeah... but in vanilla BG2, when you don't modify the spell, it's 4d6 without save throw +3d6 with a save ... so you won't be surviving that as a level 1 char, ever... as the next level it's going to change is at level 8. Aka it's a designed to be for caster level 7.