63 replies to this topic

[Fouinto]

I am pretty sure you are right about it... i was just telling there was already a similar bug long ago

[Ithildur]

Thanks for taking the reports in stride Lollorian.

 

Things like extra loot drops (some of which probably were intended to drop in the vanilla game, though obviously not all of them) are not game breakers so it's not a huge deal, though things like occasionally finding +2 arrows dropping at early stages of the game is fairly notable (i.e. if you do the basilisk garden early enough).

 

What I'm more bothered by is the fact that bws currently has things set up so that LOLFix (at least the 'pure fix' parts) is mandatory by default with every level of installation (including expert I think); imo that level of universal acceptance is merited only by things like maybe BG2Fixpack at least at this stage; maybe down the road when LOLFix is as firmly established and proven as BG2Fixpack it makes sense to make it mandatory, but given that 1. it's still not quite that thoroughly tested as evidenced by no one knowing about the Obe illusions and 2. there are existing alternatives like crefixer which are less ambitious in scope, it seems a bit premature or heavy handed to force install most of it's components, vs. highly recommending but not forcing them on users.

 

Examining the notes found in LOLFixer's folder (only found notes on the mod overview and component 0, nothing on the others)... just looking at the notes for component 0 leads me to believe the amount of work LOLFixer does is ... quite extensive. Given that so many files are examined and corrected/tweaked it follows that there's a corresponding increased percentage chance for overlooked errors even with an extremely thorough mod author and team; seeing this and given my experience of discovering a thus far unreported/unknown issue, I just can't buy into the idea that LOLFixer is foolproof enough at this stage to warrant a force install.

 

But that's probably a conversation better suited in LOLFix threads, as we've clarified what was going on with clean-up.bat.

Edited by Ithildur, 18 January 2016 - 01:02 PM.

[The Imp]

@Fouinto: nah the problem Ithildur reported in the bws thread was specifically caused by the lolfixer

Yeah, but all the items in the place are supposed to be removed by a script that runs just outside the area. It's a different thing. Aka, if the goblins had the same kind of items as the characters, they would all disappear, as they would be flagged illusory items. But then again, you might as well flag them not to be patched.

[Ithildur]

There's a script to remove specific items carried by the temporary NPC party members, I do know that for a fact; I'm unaware of a generic 'remove all items picked up while in Obe's danger room upon exit' script.

 

There is obviously no script to remove gold that will drop from LOLFix assigned random treasure on the LOLfix'ed critters.

Edited by Ithildur, 18 January 2016 - 01:08 PM.

[Leonardo Watson]

The clean-up.bat offers two options: the first one is to delete no longer needed files at the end of the installation; the second one is to delete also the backup from the generalized_biffing mod. There is a warning that you will no longer be able to re-install or uninstall any mod if you use this option! So you just have choosen the wrong option.

However, I strongly advise against un-installing and re-installing any mods. Many changes are executed without any backups so WeiDU won't be able to restore the original files. So, if you feel the need to change your installation, you should install the whole mega-mod from scratch!

[agb1]

Does the clean-up.bat offer both choices when invoked through the menu in BiG World Install.bat?

Why does the clean-up script not finish even after leaving it for a long time?

[Ithildur]

So, if you feel the need to change your installation, you should install the whole mega-mod from scratch!

 

 

I understand your reasons for advising thusly but that seems rather extreme, and defeats a core purpose of Weidu existing in the first place. It's effectively telling people you can't even adjust the settings for things like Widescreen if you use BWS; I've never had problems with doing such or making other minor end of install-order adjustments with manual installations.

Edited by Ithildur, 19 January 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[agb1]

So, if you feel the need to change your installation, you should install the whole mega-mod from scratch!

I understand your reasons for advising thusly but that seems rather extreme, and defeats a core purpose of Weidu existing in the first place. It's effectively telling people you can't even adjust the settings for things like Widescreen if you use BWS; I've never had problems with doing such or making other minor end of install-order adjustments with manual installations.

This is taken out of context.  What you quoted from Leonardo's post above only applies if you used the clean-up.bat, which has nothing to do with whether you used BWS for your installation.  The clean-up.bat is an optional script from the BWP Installpack (which is not part of BWS) for reducing the amount of disk space used by an installation in exchange for not being able to modify the installation afterwards.  No one is forced to use the clean-up.bat script (BWS never runs that script) and we have amended the warning at the end of the BWS installation to emphasize the consequences.

Edited by agb1, 19 January 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[Ithildur]

Ok, that's fine; I understood his recommendation as a general one, not tied to using clean-up.bat (because of the word 'however').

Edited by Ithildur, 20 January 2016 - 12:33 AM.

[Niewiem]

I got exactly same msg from Leonardos post - that you should never reinstall mods as this will lead to problems.
But this was not directed to BWS but to manuall instalation too

[Roxanne]

I got exactly same msg from Leonardos post - that you should never reinstall mods as this will lead to problems.
But this was not directed to BWS but to manuall instalation too

Fact is - and I say this as a modder who constantly installs and de-installs the mods under test - that you can do it in a limited and controlled way, if you know what you did before and how you do what you do. In a large installation, especially one done with BWS/BWP etc, this is just not recommended (Leonardo speaks from the viewpoint of BWP here).

If you use your Weidu.log and de-install mods beginning from the bottom upwards there is a chance of success (say you put something to test at the very end - you do not like it - you uninstall it). However, there are certain things especially tweaked files that are not always in the respective backup and such may lead to game corruption. You should always avoid to uninstall a mod or mod component that is not the very last in your log, as such would trigger the automatic de-installation of everything after the mod you selected followed by the uninstall of your choice followed by the re-install of those components you took out in step one - easily leading to a situation where components are installed in the wrong order.

So in a nutshell - if you want to test one or two mods and are unsure whether you want to keep them or not - do your install and biffing etc without those mods. Manually install the suspicious mods at the very end and if you decide you do not lik them uninstall them again. This should not give you any problem at all. Anything else is a risk.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

PS There are a number of mods that you simply cannot un-install without corrupting your game, especially the very old and very big megamods, which do a lot of their compiling and unpacking in temporary directories during their install - then copy the result into override and delete the temp - (some of them even biff their final result) - so you cannot roll back their install safely. Same for BGT, the mod.

Edited by Roxanne, 20 January 2016 - 04:02 AM.

[The Imp]

PS There are a number of mods that you simply cannot un-install without corrupting your game, especially the very old and very big megamods, which do a lot of their compiling and unpacking in temporary directories during their install - then copy the result into override and delete the temp - (some of them even biff their final result) - so you cannot roll back their install safely. Same for BGT, the mod.

Well, in BWS, this is changed by the fact that the BWP tools fix the functionality of those mods by removing the old style Biffing, which is why the new one needs to be done, as the new style of biffing can be uninstalled(Generalized Biffing), while the old could too in theory, but not in a chain-uninstall, as the uninstall ran a .bat file that wouldn't keep up in a chain-uninstall, aka an uninstall of a component that's not last in the weidu.log. This is no way to say that it should be done still, but anyways, it can. There's also other factors, like the sometime need to start a new game after installing a component, sometimes not.

Edited by The Imp, 20 January 2016 - 04:23 AM.

[Roxanne]

PS There are a number of mods that you simply cannot un-install without corrupting your game, especially the very old and very big megamods, which do a lot of their compiling and unpacking in temporary directories during their install - then copy the result into override and delete the temp - (some of them even biff their final result) - so you cannot roll back their install safely. Same for BGT, the mod.

Well, in BWS, this is changed by the fact that the BWP tools fix the functionality of those mods by removing the old style Biffing, which is why the new one needs to be done, as the new style of biffing can be uninstalled(Generalized Biffing), while the old could too in theory, but not in a chain-uninstall, as the uninstall ran a .bat file that wouldn't keep up in a chain-uninstall, aka an uninstall of a component that's not last in the weidu.log. This is no way to say that it should be done still, but anyways, it can. There's also other factors, like the sometime need to start a new game after installing a component, sometimes not.

There is as well a more practical argument - there is a point where rolling back an installation, correcting it, and then re-installing it the way you want it (provided even nothing goes wrong) is as much costing time and effort than simply starting clean and having learned from previous mistakes and doing it right this rime.

[agb1]

I stand corrected.  On reflection, even BWS contributes to this inability to safely reinstall certain mods, because BWS includes some workarounds (CMD lines in Select.txt) that are applied before and after installing certain mods using Windows commands (e.g., echo a missing entry into an IDS file, or move certain files temporarily out of override folder while installing a component, then back in, to avoid an install error).  Those commands are not logged by WeiDU and would not be applied again on reinstall.  Over time we've been trying to reduce non-WeiDU workarounds in BWS (of which there aren't many).  This is yet another reason to minimize them.

[Ithildur]

I stand corrected.  On reflection, even BWS contributes to this inability to safely reinstall certain mods, because BWS includes some workarounds (CMD lines in Select.txt) that are applied before and after installing certain mods using Windows commands (e.g., echo a missing entry into an IDS file, or move certain files temporarily out of override folder while installing a component, then back in, to avoid an install error).  Those commands are not logged by WeiDU and would not be applied again on reinstall.  Over time we've been trying to reduce non-WeiDU workarounds in BWS (of which there aren't many).  This is yet another reason to minimize them.

 

This is insightful (though disconcerting) and definitely grounds for viewing re-installation of mods as risky (er) for a BWS Installation. Will reviewing said Select.txt file be sufficient to get a comprehensive list of mods affected in such manner (edit, nm... scanned through the file, don't understand 90% of what's in there)? i.e. it would be more reassuring if this applied to say, mostly older or bigger mods, mods with known longstanding issues, stuff like Ascension (which gets installed way early and is safe to say will never be uninstalled once it's installed) with it's ids/2da file missing a return carriage , etc.

 

A central claim of weidu has been from the beginning that you can uninstall and reinstall weidu mods that patch and not overwrite files without problems (with a few exceptions), and while we know that's not perfectly true with every mod combination, for the most part I believe that's still a more or less valid claim? For example, I used to regularly experiment with select components of Lvl1NPC in my installs (felt it was safe to do so since it's nearly at the end of my installs - usually only gen biff and/or widescreen might be reinstalled in the process) without any detrimental effect, accepting the fact that there always is some small risk that something might not end up as advertised.

 

If in fact BWP/BWS currently alters this fundamental concept in a significant enough way, that's a pretty big change (and surprising; I guess I've always viewed the warnings about not making changes as a safety measure directed primarily towards people who might be new to weidu/liable to make obvious mistakes), definitely big enough to impact my decisions about whether to use BWS or not in the future as painful as that decision might be.

Edited by Ithildur, 20 January 2016 - 11:53 AM.

[The Imp]

If in fact BWP/BWS currently alters this fundamental concept in a significant way, that's a pretty big change (and surprising; I guess I've always viewed the warnings about not making changes as a safety measure directed primarily towards people who might be new to weidu/liable to make obvious mistakes), definitely big enough to impact my decisions about whether to use BWS or not in the future.

It does this in some of the older mods, or not up to date ones yes.
This is because there's a few points where if you want to add mod x, you need to move a file z to elsewhere or else.

Go ahead and try to make a megamod without the BWS. I sure wish to see you make a better effort than what -what ... 20 other megamod enthusiasts have, ouh, make sure you don't break a mod.

[agb1]

I'm just a beginner with WeiDU but I've seen that certain actions have an optional "no-backup" ... and also WeiDU can be used to invoke external actions (command prompt) just as BWS does.  These no-backup actions are strongly discouraged by the WeiDU documentation because they are asymmetric (uninstall doesn't restore exactly the same state that was there originally).  Similarly, external actions (AT_NOW for example) could be asymmetric, depending on what was done.

 

BWS applies workarounds before installing a small number of mods (this number is shrinking because we've been moving as much of this as possible into the BiG World Fixpack, which patches WeiDU code and therefore should be symmetrical).  The workarounds are mostly 1. appending to IDS files (the lack of symmetry here will either be irrelevant if the IDS entry was already there -- this workaround technique isn't smart enough to check for existing entries -- or it will be apparent when you try to reinstall the mod because it will complain about missing IDS entries) or 2. moving problematic files out of overwrite folder while installing a mod, then move that file back in (overwriting any changes by the mod that was just installed).  The consequence of uninstalling that mod in this case is more severe -- the mod will have placed a copy of the *original* game file in its backup folder (vs. the cumulative changes represented in the file that was temporarily moved out).  Still, these usually apply to only a handful of files (often item files with bad offsets or the like), so the likelihood of game-breaking impacts is low.  But, having realized this now (I hadn't considered the implications before), I will make it a priority to get the remainder of these workarounds moved into the BiG World Fixpack.

 

Edit: on further thought, the risk of #2 is lower if you uninstall multiple mods, and particularly if you install the previous mod that also modified the same file, it will restore a cumulative version of the file instead of an original, because it will have the cumulative copy (whatever was in override before it was installed).

Edited by agb1, 20 January 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[agb1]

Current BWS workarounds for BGT game type:

 

1. After ROT is installed together with SOS or CTB, copy some Yeti animation files from ROT to override folder

2. After NEJ (currently an Expert mod in BWS) is installed, copy four files from BiG World Fixpack to override folder afterwards:   SPWI524.SPL, SPWI696.SPL, SPWI724.SPL, staf15.itm

3. After Tortured Souls is installed, overwrite fonts in override folder with original fonts (undo fonts replacement by TS)

4. After installing Drizzt Saga BP-BGT-Worldmap variant, append a newline to Worldmap/map_mods_links.tbl

5. Before installing The Vault, if alissa8 creature file exists in override and cadder2,3,5,ly creature files do not, copy the cadder files from ROT to override

6. Before installing Finch NPC, for German language installations, delete an audio file from Finch's mod file (this is symmetrical because it precedes install and it is removing a file, not copying/appending/adding)

7. Before installing The Big Picture (currently an Expert mod in BWS), if The Undying #1 (Harder Enemies) is installed, try to copy some non-existent patches from BiG World Fixpack (evidently this one can go)

8. Before installing The Big Picture, if a file named ".itm" (no prefix, that name exactly) exists in the override folder, delete it

9. After installing Revised Battles #24 (Blademaster Kit), save its B#BLADE kit.IDS line in a temporary file and later append that line again to kit.IDS

10. After installing G3 Anniversary mod, append a newline to Worldmap/map_mods_links.tbl

11. Before installing Galactygon's Lost Crossroads Spell Pack, if some animation files from The Undying were installed, temporarily move them out of the override folder, then back in after Spell Pack (comment in BWS file says these files seem to be corrupt and prevent installation of Hypnotic Pattern component of Spell Pack)

12. Before installing igi's Item Mod, if Dungeon Be Gone is installed, temporarily move FWJASSY.CRE out of the override folder, then back in after igi's Item Mod is installed

13. After installing Unique Artifacts (currently an Expert mod in BWS), restore the copy of TASLGURK.CRE from its own backup folder (i.e., undo any changes by Unique Artifacts to this creature file)

14. Before installing Might & Guile #100 (item tweaks), if a file named XXX009.ITM exists in override, temporarily move it out while installing that component, then back in

15. Before installing Might & Guile #120 (weapon proficiency overhaul), if a file named C#AJAN16.CRE exists in override, temporarily move it out while installing that component, then back in

16. Before installing SCS #6000 (improved general AI), if NEJ2v691 (currently an Expert mod in BWS) was installed, if innate ability SPIN506.SPL is not in the override, copy that file from BiG World Fixpack to override (this suggests that NEJv691 adds a reference this innate to a kit's CLAB file but neglects to copy the SPL itself)

17. Before installing SCS #6000 (improved general AI), if DSotSC was installed, temporarily move orc03.cre and orc04.cre out of override until after SCS #6040-6044 (smarter priests)

18. After installing (currently Expert mod) BP #440/450/460 (Duergars), replace DUARC02,03,04.CRE in override with copies of DUARC01.CRE from override

19. Before installing aTweaks #300/322/323/324 (Dimension Door animation tweaks), if Ajantis BG2 NPC is installed, temporarily move C#AJCUD1.BCS out of override until after this component is installed

20. Before installing igi's Spell System Adjustments #0 (arcane spell refreshment), if Derat's "Unused" Kits Pack is installed, temporarily move PXW3CAME.SPL out of override until after this component is installed

21. Before installing Sandrah NPC, copy worldmap.wmp from BiG World Fixpack to override

22. Before installing Sandrah NPC, append following entries to IDS files:

    162 WIZARD_SPELL_TURNING >> override\stats.IDS

    164 WIZARD_SPELL_TRAP >> override\stats.IDS

    177 WIZARD_SPELL_SHIELD >> override\stats.IDS

    3201 INNATE_NEUTRALIZE_POISON >> override\spell.IDS

    4732 HELM_TRUE_SIGHT >> override\spell.IDS

    201 NEEDS_BREACH >> override\specific.IDS

    3600 SHROM_TIMER >> override\gtimes.IDS

23. After installing Level1NPCs rules tweaks component #0 through #100, if Refinements #10 (HLAs component) is also being installed, undo any changes to kit.IDS that were made by Level1NPCs component #0

24. Before installing Psionics Unleashed, if Derat's "Unused" Kits Pack is installed, temporarily move PXW3CAME.SPL out of override until after this mod is installed

25. After installing Infinity Animations, copy some animation files from BiG World Fixpack to override folder

26. Before installing Innate Fix (never installed because Lolfixer includes the same fix), move ahjon.BCS from Longer Road temporarily out of override folder, then back in after

27. Before installing Lolfixer #0, move following files temporarily out of override, then back in after:

    ESX01.wav, ISHXAR1.wav, ISHXAR6.wav, ISHXAR7.wav, ISHXAR8.wav, ISHXAR9.wav, DGMAIN.wav, F_6666.ARE

[Ithildur]

Wow... that's a heck of lot of work to get mods to play nice with each other. Raises my appreciation of the work output you guys are involved in and why there are so many potential little problems. A part of me also wants to say 'forget trying to get the big old mess mods to play nicely with the better modern mods, it's not worth the effort' but that's not my call, and I understand some people do like those mods.

 

Quickly scanning that list, none of those apply in any install I've ever used (generally avoid the big older mods like the plague; 10, 19, possibly 25 might've been applicable but so far I've managed to resist the urge to install Ajantis, IA, and have used Anniversary mod only once in the past) which /should/ mean I shouldn't have issues with, say manually adjusting widescreen or Lvl1NPC-izing specific NPCs, then rebiffing... *crosses fingers*

 

 

Go ahead and try to make a megamod without the BWS. I sure wish to see you make a better effort than what -what ... 20 other megamod enthusiasts have, ouh, make sure you don't break a mod.

 

If by 'make a megamod' (sic) you mean my typical BGT installs without the big messy old mods, then I can assure you I've had many successful and problem free manual installs (BWP pdf guide is helpful, usually...), sometimes that actually takes less time than using BWS and having to sort through it's unique issues.

 

If you mean an install with NEJ, Drizzt Saga, Darkest Day, and stuff like that, no need to worry. As stated above I won't be touching most of those types of mods with a 10 foot pole, ever.

 

Again, that's not a knock on BWS so much as the fact that for someone like me that sticks to BGT and mostly proven, staple mods, the amount of work/time that BWS saves vs the amount that it might actually create at times might mean it's not quite as critical/valuable as for someone who installs every major mod under the sun..

Edited by Ithildur, 21 January 2016 - 10:29 PM.

[Greenhorn]

Again, that's not a knock on BWS so much as the fact that for someone like me that sticks to BGT and mostly proven, staple mods, the amount of work/time that BWS saves vs the amount that it might actually create at times might mean it's not quite as critical/valuable as for someone who installs every mayor mod under the sun.

That would be me.