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[Removed] Sandrah NPC


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#821 Roxanne

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 10:39 AM

The Sandrah mod without its heroine - a loose coupling of quest to play along your game at your convenience.
Hmm, what you imply is not exactly what I am looking in this... I am looking for the possibility of taking Sandrah with me to most of the quests, do most of the tasks and so forth. But I am not looking for her to have to be permanent party member from day one to day 1000, whichout any other pauses except the natural one in BG1->BG2 transition ... that's impossible for me to coup with. Your quest structure should be more closer to that of the stronghold ones, or other similar things. So they each have a start, end and the NPC is changed by them even if they are not present according to the choise that were made. Also if you wish, you can add additional things if the NPC is in the party*. And additional content if they were not, say like.. "ouh the last time we seperated, you went and killed this, that and those persons, how do you thing this will reflect on me ?" Aka the missed quest comes and bites back, so to speak. And of course if the Bhallspawn makes a huge misstep even unknowingly, Sandrah can go and never return. Or just go hostile after "Hell yeah, we burned the whole temple to the ground" "-Savages. Aargh..."

*Yes, this requires the NPC to have a place to send her between the adventures and that should be some semi-pernanent places like FAI in BG1, near the slums in SoA and the pocket plane in ToB.

I see what you mean with that - there are even some events that make her leave the party by herself for some time (like Jaheira in part of her Harper quest). There is an option for BG1 and BG2 to have her wait at an adequate location but it is limited, i.e if you do not pick her up again for some significant events/meetings/quests she will be gone since her own quest becomes impossible to solve. Her story is entwined with the Bhaalspawn plot of the PC and thus major events are tied to that story. It helps little if the PC later reports those events or similar, there are people or locations she has to see or vice versa for HER part of the story to unveil.

 

The main problem here is what was discussed earlier - there are numerous ways through the game, so even with some walkthrough you will never know when she should be there or when you can postpone the event.

 

This is a limitation I was aware of right from the beginning of the mod. My solution for it was - the mod as it is now - or to be specific - to make her constant presence in the party something you wish for because she is entertaining, because she is a useful figher, because she is a useful cleric and healer, because she has a lot to contribute, and because the game with her is never boring due to the loads of additional quests and interactions you get with her. It is a tradeoff but nothing is ever perfect.

 

PS - For ToB and thereafter, there is no chance to get rid of her in those parts other than permanently. ToB is where the RtF plot actually starts (remember, this is a continuous story mod), with your and Sandrah's decisions after M's defeat you open or close the door to the sequel. And in RtF you are in it together against the rest of...all the enemies the two of you have made before +some.


Edited by Roxanne, 20 November 2015 - 10:45 AM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#822 Creepin

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 10:50 AM

But I am not looking for her to have to be permanent party member from day one to day 1000
That's perfectly legit gameplay decision. However, what I don't understand, is why the need to divide Sandrah and her quests? Having to keep someone in party to get his content is a basis of both vanilla and modding. You don't ask to have Tashia quests available while you don't keep Tashia, the same with Finch or even with Jaheira for example, what is different here?

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#823 Roxanne

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 11:02 AM

But I am not looking for her to have to be permanent party member from day one to day 1000
That's perfectly legit gameplay decision. However, what I don't understand, is why the need to divide Sandrah and her quests? Having to keep someone in party to get his content is a basis of both vanilla and modding. You don't ask to have Tashia quests available while you don't keep Tashia, the same with Finch or even with Jaheira for example, what is different here?

Nothing.

 

Unless, you consider that the Sandrah quest starts with your first conversation with Gorion in Candlekeep and (its BGT part) ends when you finally talk with the Solar at ToB (with the RtF option to go even further).

This is indeed far more than any other NPC reuires for their quest/plot and, unless you agree with my justification for that extended concept, you must really think twice whether you want to embark on that journey or not. You will have this permanent companion for the whole game if you want her or you kick her out once you get tired of her and skip the rest of her story.

 

It is a new concept - it was posted for testing and feedback - and I am the first to have my doubts about it being part of BGT/BWS in the future (the background for this post):

http://www.shsforums...-39#entry582418


Edited by Roxanne, 20 November 2015 - 11:03 AM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#824 agb1

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 01:22 PM

@Roxanne - perhaps there is a way to give the freedom to sometimes play without Sandrah while also not missing any of her essential character development?

 

For example, if Sandrah is not in the party when approaching some important milestone, you could add interjections from other NPCs saying 'we really should go back for Sandrah before we continue'.  Or you could have that strange old wizard

Spoiler
pop in and hint that CHARNAME should go pick up Sandrah before proceeding.

 

I don't know how many of these "critical" points there are for Sandrah, so it might not be practical.  Just a thought.


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#825 Creepin

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 01:47 PM

@Roxanne - perhaps there is a way to give the freedom to sometimes play without Sandrah while also not missing any of her essential character development?
/me trying to remember if there was a single post over last twelve years asking for an access to Tortured Souls content without dragging Yoshimo & Kachiko along. Something unprecedented & really weird is going on regarding Sandrah.

Edited by Creepin, 20 November 2015 - 01:48 PM.

The Old Gold - v0.2 WIP (mod for BGT/BWP/BWS)


#826 Roxanne

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 01:54 PM

@Roxanne - perhaps there is a way to give the freedom to sometimes play without Sandrah while also not missing any of her essential character development?

 

For example, if Sandrah is not in the party when approaching some important milestone, you could add interjections from other NPCs saying 'we really should go back for Sandrah before we continue'.  Or you could have that strange old wizard

Spoiler
pop in and hint that CHARNAME should go pick up Sandrah before proceeding.

 

I don't know how many of these "critical" points there are for Sandrah, so it might not be practical.  Just a thought.

Anything is possible and brainstorming ideas never hurts.

 

Nevertheless I do not like it. It feels forced and false. The player has kicked her out, lost his interest in her or does not want her for any other reason. Now someone or something wants to force her back onto you. Sounds not right to me. Gives one NPC more emphasis than the others. Besides, it would work only once - no one would want those things come time and time again for some NPC sent away long ago.

Also not very practical - e.g. you are about to enter the final level of the Cloakwood Mines and a divine voice reminds you to pick up Sandrah from the Temple in Nashkel??? Apart from that there are timers and events that are not that plannable (not tied to entering some area for the first time or such).

 

I have used one option in the mod (some second chance for the PC, if you want) - if you lose her or kick her out in some early period of BG1, you will meet her once more prior to some special common event - she will meet you with a story how you and her were following similar hints and thus came to the same conclusion that lead both of you to that point,

 

Spoiler


Edited by Roxanne, 20 November 2015 - 01:55 PM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#827 agb1

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 02:19 PM

Well, here is another idea:  Sandrah comes to CHARNAME at those important times, on her own initiative, and asks to rejoin the party.  If refused, she warns that she cannot continue waiting for CHARNAME, and if refused again, she leaves permanently.

 

Edit: expanding on this idea -- maybe instead of Sandrah waiting where you left her, she always says that she is going to go off and do her own thing.  So the player is now expecting her to appear later, on her own schedule.  And maybe you have a timer trigger for her to reappear (or maybe you trigger her to reappear after the party sleeps in an inn, since that is usually a good place to rearrange the group).  And also, when there are important scenes that Sandrah should not miss, she appears on her own.


Edited by agb1, 20 November 2015 - 02:51 PM.

BiG World Fixpack (community collection of mod fixes and compatibility patches, with user-friendly cross-platform script)

 

BiG World Setup (tool to automate best-practice installation of Infinity Engine mods on Windows, with conflict analysis)

Latest version:    https://bitbucket.or.../get/master.zip


#828 agb1

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 02:23 PM

@Roxanne - perhaps there is a way to give the freedom to sometimes play without Sandrah while also not missing any of her essential character development?
/me trying to remember if there was a single post over last twelve years asking for an access to Tortured Souls content without dragging Yoshimo & Kachiko along. Something unprecedented & really weird is going on regarding Sandrah.

 

For me this is more of a thought experiment.  I am personally fine with the premise that to experience Sandrah you play with Sandrah, full stop.  But since Imp raised the question of being able to leave Sandrah behind, and also thinking of Syvishtar's Journal play-through with the play-style of leaving NPCs behind to "rest" after resurrecting them if they die during play, I can see how some players might want more flexibility.


BiG World Fixpack (community collection of mod fixes and compatibility patches, with user-friendly cross-platform script)

 

BiG World Setup (tool to automate best-practice installation of Infinity Engine mods on Windows, with conflict analysis)

Latest version:    https://bitbucket.or.../get/master.zip


#829 Roxanne

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 11:20 PM

@Roxanne - perhaps there is a way to give the freedom to sometimes play without Sandrah while also not missing any of her essential character development?
/me trying to remember if there was a single post over last twelve years asking for an access to Tortured Souls content without dragging Yoshimo & Kachiko along. Something unprecedented & really weird is going on regarding Sandrah.

 

For me this is more of a thought experiment.  I am personally fine with the premise that to experience Sandrah you play with Sandrah, full stop.  But since Imp raised the question of being able to leave Sandrah behind, and also thinking of Syvishtar's Journal play-through with the play-style of leaving NPCs behind to "rest" after resurrecting them if they die during play, I can see how some players might want more flexibility.

This whole discussion was started by the Imp at a more conceptual basis (not even actually having played the game with her),

Some of what you propose is already there and from the reactions of those who really started playing the mod there was no such request ever - the opposite - her leaving the party (to solve a quest on her own if you rejected it and then come back and rejoin; or leaving because she saw the PC not compatible with herself and her attitude) was more bothering than her being there.

As a whole, I see no real consequences/changes to be drawn from this at the moment and will leave her as she is.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#830 waebbl

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 03:03 PM

I'm not sure, whether this belongs here. Today, while looking at some of the CtB code, I stumbled upon the following code, which I believe, belongs to SandrahNPC:
 

IF
    Global("CVAR0510","GLOBAL",0) 
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
         SetGlobal("CVR0510","GLOBAL",1)
         Continue() 
END 
 

 
There's an error in the SetGlobal statement, the variable reads "CVR0510" instead of "CVAR0510".


Edited by waebbl, 22 November 2015 - 03:04 PM.


#831 Roxanne

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 11:04 PM

I'm not sure, whether this belongs here. Today, while looking at some of the CtB code, I stumbled upon the following code, which I believe, belongs to SandrahNPC:
 
IF
    Global("CVAR0510","GLOBAL",0) 
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
         SetGlobal("CVR0510","GLOBAL",1)
         Continue() 
END 
 

 
There's an error in the SetGlobal statement, the variable reads "CVR0510" instead of "CVAR0510".

Yes, thank you - should be cvar0510. You could correct it in NI, otherwise it will repeatedly run when you are later in that area, may cause stuttering.

I checked - ii is only misspelled this one time. Corrected it.


Edited by Roxanne, 22 November 2015 - 11:07 PM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#832 Creepin

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 11:56 PM

Corrected it.
Just to clarify, as I'm still struggling with all this modern github craze: when you said corrected, does that mean that you've corrected it internally and will include in the next version released, or that it is already included in "master" download?

The Old Gold - v0.2 WIP (mod for BGT/BWP/BWS)


#833 Roxanne

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 12:43 AM

Corrected it.
Just to clarify, as I'm still struggling with all this modern github craze: when you said corrected, does that mean that you've corrected it internally and will include in the next version released, or that it is already included in "master" download?

Both. If you download now, the fix will be in it (For this one I do not have to run a test or something, it is just a misspelling and I made sure that the script using the global later is correct.) The github master will always have the latest tested version of the mod. The master is the one on my PC which is always a bit ahead for verification and testing, If all is fine, I *commit* the update to github und it is this version you can download. This has the big advantage that not every other player necessarily runs into every bug that has already been reported and fixed. Much better than for hundreds of players running into the same issue and the fix will come in a realease in a few month's time.

Releases are planned for the real major changes - the next one is to contain the traified version of the game with english and german version and all the text files in tra format, i.e. they can be used for translation into other languages (if there should be really someone crazy enough to want to do that). Tra will have the advantage that any spelling correction or re.wording can be more easily introduced, you only need to correct the coresponding text file.

 

By the way *this modern github craze* is what the fixpack and BWS guys do (almost) daily - the BWS you download today will most likely be different from yesterday's and Lollorian will have fixed all the issues reported to him until the *commit* was done. Always fresh.


Edited by Roxanne, 23 November 2015 - 12:51 AM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#834 Creepin

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 01:19 AM

Roxanne, thank you for detailed clarification!
 
the BWS you download today will most likely be different from yesterday's
This is exactly my main issue with github way! I will post it in separate thread though so as not to derail this topic :)

The Old Gold - v0.2 WIP (mod for BGT/BWP/BWS)


#835 psychlopes

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 10:23 PM

hello,

thank you for this mod. is the visit to waterdeep in BG1 or BG2?? because I am almost finished with BG1 ( completed DSOTSC , NTOTSC, vault, stone of askavar, grey clan, SOBH, dark horizons, and every other mod I can think of) and still, Sandrah doesnt mention going to water deep. I only have left the return to the Iron throne after candlekeep catacombs .



#836 Roxanne

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 10:46 PM

hello,

thank you for this mod. is the visit to waterdeep in BG1 or BG2?? because I am almost finished with BG1 ( completed DSOTSC , NTOTSC, vault, stone of askavar, grey clan, SOBH, dark horizons, and every other mod I can think of) and still, Sandrah doesnt mention going to water deep. I only have left the return to the Iron throne after candlekeep catacombs .

Spoiler

The option for this is gone by now. Only possible way is to cheat

Spoiler

 

I am not sure it will completely recover all you have missed (about 2 thirds of Sandrahh contents in BG1) and it may be better to kick her out for BG2 since the whole  story is messed.

 

I will look and see if the Waterdeep travels can be made more obvious, The first one needs to be done before you first go into Baldurs Gate town otherwise you miss the largest part of the Sandrah quest and all her relationship.


Edited by Roxanne, 25 November 2015 - 11:01 PM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#837 psychlopes

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 11:06 PM

thank you, I am now in the first area where this Khattark is . hope this doesnt ruin the mod :crying:



#838 Roxanne

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 11:23 PM

thank you, I am now in the first area where this Khattark is . hope this doesnt ruin the mod :crying:

It is an extremely ODD situation and I am not sure which are the overall effects. Most of what will happen - if it happens - will be out of sync and not make much sense,

Also, do you have Imoen with you?

Did you play Grey Clan?

I suggest you see how far you can get and make a decision afterwards.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#839 psychlopes

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Posted 26 November 2015 - 03:42 AM

ofcourse, I always take Imoen

yes I played the grey clan

ok , here goes:

spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

talked to Elminster, told me aboutthe shard   then Elminster disappeared and another Elminster appeared. since I killed Nurrobnaga( spelling?? the demon)  already he congratulated me. then I found him upstairs and talked to him again, then he disappeared.found him in main hall again and he told me the demon returned and gave me the slippers ( which appears in my game as a box??). found the demon in the area where I rescued the baby from the bandit that looks like a demon knight and tricked him into wearing E's slippers. talked to E again and this time he transported me to the academy. killed everyone there and found the notes. went back and the mage from the grey clan episode 1 ( the one who gave us all the information was there and talking to him can be done multiple times and always yields 32500 XP points ( used it to level up once  :shifty: ) and talked to E again and this time the speech was about my heritage and he told me to go with my companions to the altar for Mystra ( I assume its the one from ToB where Nyalee who raised Yaga Shura is) and there is a picture for Sandrah , but nothing happened( maybe because I already know who I am ??)

now Im stuck and can't find a way to enter the sewers to find the bandit K....... ( REALLY difficult names, how do you come up with these names ??) and cant solve also the quest for the water queen since the priest will tell me what I need only when I find the bandit.

also: Finch was with me all the time and received a new tome from her relative. hope I didnt ruin her extended quest

sorry, I dont know how to put in spoiler tags



#840 Roxanne

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Posted 26 November 2015 - 03:54 AM

ofcourse, I always take Imoen

yes I played the grey clan

ok , here goes:

spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

talked to Elminster, told me aboutthe shard   then Elminster disappeared and another Elminster appeared. since I killed Nurrobnaga( spelling?? the demon)  already he congratulated me. then I found him upstairs and talked to him again, then he disappeared.found him in main hall again and he told me the demon returned and gave me the slippers ( which appears in my game as a box??). found the demon in the area where I rescued the baby from the bandit that looks like a demon knight and tricked him into wearing E's slippers. talked to E again and this time he transported me to the academy. killed everyone there and found the notes. went back and the mage from the grey clan episode 1 ( the one who gave us all the information was there and talking to him can be done multiple times and always yields 32500 XP points ( used it to level up once  :shifty: 

This exploit may be messed by the late arrival, the guy disappears after giving you points once.

) and talked to E again and this time the speech was about my heritage and he told me to go with my companions to the altar for Mystra ( I assume its the one from ToB where Nyalee who raised Yaga Shura is) and there is a picture for Sandrah , but nothing happened( maybe because I already know who I am ??)

now Im stuck and can't find a way to enter the sewers to find the bandit K....... ( REALLY difficult names, how do you come up with these names ??) and cant solve also the quest for the water queen since the priest will tell me what I need only when I find the bandit.

also: Finch was with me all the time and received a new tome from her relative. hope I didnt ruin her extended quest

sorry, I dont know how to put in spoiler tags

Spoiler

You did not ruin Finch's quest, but that one has events happening at time intervals (so to fit into chapters 3 to 6) now you will either need long waits or set timer globals by hand.

 

Well, some of the quests still work but - like expected - nothing fits very well together anymore. I already made some improvements to make availability of Waterdeep access more obvious. (Maybe you never returned the shard back to Elminster early in the game?)


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*