Edited by agb1, 18 November 2015 - 07:16 AM.
[Removed] Sandrah NPC
Started by Roxanne, Apr 08 2015 08:42 AM
1192 replies to this topic
#781
agb1
-
- Member
- 1623 posts
Posted 18 November 2015 - 07:16 AM
Why stop adding features? Bugs can be fixed over time and users help with that by reporting. Even major bugs can be patched in a game-in-progress, and the consequence of even a major bug is just that a user might have to wait for a fix before continuing the game. So if roxanne wants to add new features also, I say go ahead.
BiG World Fixpack (community collection of mod fixes and compatibility patches, with user-friendly cross-platform script)
BiG World Setup (tool to automate best-practice installation of Infinity Engine mods on Windows, with conflict analysis)
Latest version: https://bitbucket.or.../get/master.zip
#782
Lollorian
-
- Member
- 4150 posts
smiley addict
Posted 18 November 2015 - 07:16 AM
Status of the Project
What? Surely you jest! 
Mods like Sandrah are exactly why things like the BWP exist 
Please don't be discouraged by the lack of feedback (I seriously don't see any negative feedback in this thread - I dunno if you have threads in other forums though 
) There are many people who don't post but do appreciate the idea behind Sandrah.
While there might be things that people do not agree on some of your decisions - you've shown that you do listen (eg: Imoen's class choice) and this is a rare thing these days in the modding scene. If needed, just take a break and come back 
Suggestion: Stick to a set of mods that you recommend and build the mod around that set - forget about compatibility with mods that are not in the set (let someone else handle that)
PS: I personally haven't played the mod (I haven't even played the game past the various starting areas) but the first thing I loved after coming back from hiatus was this project (and EET ) and used to closely follow this project's development while I lurked...
"I am the smiley addict, yellow and round, this is my grin when I'm usually around .
When there's trouble brewing, see me post, cuz it's usually a wall o' yellow and your eyes are toast!!!"
BWP GUIDE - BWP FIXES - impFAQ - NPC LIST - KIT LIST - AREA LIST
GitHub Links : BWP Fixpack | Lolfixer | BWP Trimpack | RezMod
#783
Roxanne
-
- Member
- 3564 posts
Modder
Posted 18 November 2015 - 07:22 AM
Thanks for your list on mod interactions. I think, this will be quite useful.
Some feedback on your view of the status of the project.
the feedback and experience with the mod so far is consistently negativeYou seem to have a rather pessimistic view of its current state. According to this whole thread, you have received not only negative feedback, but also a lot of positive, motivational one. I, personally, would not speak of a consistent negative feedback and experience, but your mileage may vary, of course.
As always in life, those that unload their negative views seldom do that openly - they come in via the backdoor, so what you see here on the forum are the helpful and constructive inputs.
Although your beta test has started back in April, it is, as I view it, strictly speaking not a beta test. In the past months, you have added new features into the mod, whereas a feature freeze is one of the defining rules of a beta test, so I would say, we're still in an alpha test phase ;-)
Even Software developpers are not following standard definitions about this anymore, so whatever we call it, it is work-in-progress.
You are writing a big and awful peace of software. I really like the idea and the design of a mod spanning all parts of the saga and even extending it past the original end. I think, this is doable, although it will be not an easy path to go.I'm sure you know, that in itself your mod has to contain lots of bugs, due to the shear amount of code. On top of that, it depends on a whole lot of additional mods, where you don't necessarily have source code access to, and which contain their own bugs and oddities, you have to deal with. Last but not least it runs on an engine which is buggy and has its limitations. All of this makes the development as well as bug hunting of the mod so much more difficult to deal with, compared to a standalone piece of software.
I look towards another major attempt that had tried a similar approach to BGT before (NEJ) and I do not want to end up in the same way - especially for the sake of the BGT idea I do not want to have in the end two of such attempts being out there. I am also a player of Megamods, and from that point of view I am already large parts of Sandrah - even if I think I have avoided a number of mistakes made by others before me (like taking you away from the main plot for prolonged time periods and such).
I want to encourage you, to not only continue the mod, but also to further go for the goal of having it included with a standard BWP/BWS install, not only something, experts will have their fun with. I can understand, if you are tired after 8 months of beta testing and want to come to an end and release it. But stay ahead and go for it. My advice would be to stop adding features and solely go for bug fixing, extend the beta period for another quarter and then decide again about the state of the project. I hope to still see this mod in a couple of years. Many thanks for this great awsome mod!
I have lost any hope that Sandrah will ever be anything else but expert for some dedicated players.
If you follow the other threads and discussion on SHS and any other Baldur Gate forum, you will have noticed the trend of having a large wide-open game platform with loosely coupled events and the opportunity to go into BGT, IWD, IWD2 and whatever with thousands of kits to select - the contents becomes irrelevant. Sandrah tries to do the opposite, she creates a kind of very long road through the game - but still a road - from Candlekeep to Throne of Bhaal and tries to tell a story here. Sounds to me like a dinosaur approach now,
#784
Roxanne
-
- Member
- 3564 posts
Modder
Posted 18 November 2015 - 07:27 AM
My WeiDU.log
Spoiler
Sorry, my fault. I just saw some line of code spawning valen in the area script, just below code which is definitely added by SandrahNPC and assumed the spawning of valen is too related to it :-(
You have an awful lot of the spell/tweak/item mods installed and I am sure the reported problem is somewhere there. If you really want to get to the source of the issue you would need to grab a tool named *change-log*, run it for each of the items and spells involved in your issue and you will see the mods that have changed those files.
#785
agb1
-
- Member
- 1623 posts
Posted 18 November 2015 - 07:32 AM
Personally I prefer to role play in my games, so the ability to go to IWD in EET for example will need some plausible reason and explanation for why my CHARNAME is leaving the Sword Coast.
Also changing NPCs' kits to some new ones is an interesting way to add replayability and new tactical experiences.
My point is: NPCs like Sandrah that adds depth to the existing story is exactly the kind of mod that I would like to see more of
Also changing NPCs' kits to some new ones is an interesting way to add replayability and new tactical experiences.
My point is: NPCs like Sandrah that adds depth to the existing story is exactly the kind of mod that I would like to see more of
Edited by agb1, 18 November 2015 - 07:34 AM.
BiG World Fixpack (community collection of mod fixes and compatibility patches, with user-friendly cross-platform script)
BiG World Setup (tool to automate best-practice installation of Infinity Engine mods on Windows, with conflict analysis)
Latest version: https://bitbucket.or.../get/master.zip
#786
Roxanne
-
- Member
- 3564 posts
Modder
Posted 18 November 2015 - 07:45 AM
Just to make it clear once more
I have no intention to give up Sandrah or even stop developping her further.
When I talked about the options a few days back I meant to express to take her out of the spotlight where BWP/BWS have dragged her. The mod will always be *you either like it or you hate it*. By concept alone this is not an NPC you take along, have some banters with (maybe a romance) and replace her with another one when you have enough. I am well aware of the fact that the more contents you add. the more there is to critisize and to dislike (well - or to like or at least accept the possibility).
#787
-Guest-
-Guest-
-
- Guest
Posted 18 November 2015 - 08:48 AM
By the way...
Have you thought to include Afaaq the djinni companion from BG 2?
And sellswords?
#788
Roxanne
-
- Member
- 3564 posts
Modder
Posted 18 November 2015 - 09:04 AM
By the way...Have you thought to include Afaaq the djinni companion from BG 2?
And sellswords?
I have Afaaq included in my current installation and will look at him when I get to SoA, It will be interesting to see how party member number 9 will fare with the menagerie that Sandrah already provides (Pelligram, Haiass) and Packmule trods along as well. Given my past experience with such mods - I anticipate no problems. (And Sandrah never misses a chance for conversation with someone who has interesting points of view).
Sellswords - I have it installed as well and took a look at the readme - there may be issues with the way Sandrah (and Drizzt) deal with the same characters but I have yet to see the details - there may be some conflict contentswise. (If there are issues they should be more or less be known already, since Sandrah's dealings with them are based on the Bregan D'aerthe episode from DSOTC and the Jarlaxle/Entreri contents in Drizzt Saga and RoT). Sellsword starts in Chapter 6 according to the readme - so most likely it all will fit more or less, in which case there definitely should be some Sandrah contents as she has dealt with those guys and their organisation before. (Might be even more interesting with Sandrah following an EVIL PC.)
In both cases, this will not be something to come in the short time,
Edited by Roxanne, 18 November 2015 - 09:08 AM.
#789
waebbl
-
- Member
- 29 posts
Posted 18 November 2015 - 01:28 PM
Why stop adding features? Bugs can be fixed over time and users help with that by reporting. Even major bugs can be patched in a game-in-progress, and the consequence of even a major bug is just that a user might have to wait for a fix before continuing the game. So if roxanne wants to add new features also, I say go ahead.
Sure she can add new features whenever she likes. It's just a common way how software releases work. At some point you have a feature freeze and publish the software as beta state, which is then used to find and fix as many bugs as possible before the release. After the release a new cycle starts, where new features will be added.
Adding new features into a piece of software always adds new bugs too, that's imho something to keep in mind when talking about extending software.
Edited by waebbl, 18 November 2015 - 01:37 PM.
#790
waebbl
-
- Member
- 29 posts
Posted 18 November 2015 - 01:38 PM
My WeiDU.log
Spoiler
Sorry, my fault. I just saw some line of code spawning valen in the area script, just below code which is definitely added by SandrahNPC and assumed the spawning of valen is too related to it :-(
You have an awful lot of the spell/tweak/item mods installed and I am sure the reported problem is somewhere there. If you really want to get to the source of the issue you would need to grab a tool named *change-log*, run it for each of the items and spells involved in your issue and you will see the mods that have changed those files.
I already did this. Valen is added by DrizztSaga and the item she's wearing and the spell are modified by several mods.
#791
The Imp
-
- Member
- 5155 posts
Not good, see EVIL is better. You'll LIVE.
Posted 18 November 2015 - 01:54 PM
The above doesn't of course exclude the possibility of continuing to add stuff, and altering them ... but that will just make it a bit more open ended project.
But it's harder to do the .tra fication and translation based on non standard files.
Backage it into a .zip folder and uploaded to a website for us to download. Yes, that's what Roxanne is asking ... The change-log is far shorter for each item, and the folder will also give us access to both the change-log.txt and the backup files the game has ... so we can see where the fault actually lies. Which is why Roxanne asked for this.
But it's harder to do the .tra fication and translation based on non standard files.
I already did this. Valen is added by DrizztSaga and the item she's wearing and the spell are modified by several mods.And the results ? The end result, that is the change-log folder in the game folder after you have ran these .bat command lines with the faulty items edited into the code:
mkdir change-log WeiDU.exe --log nul --change-log item1.itm >change-log/change-log.txt --out change-log WeiDU.exe --log nul --change-log item2.itm >change-log/change-log.txt --out change-logWhere you just replace the "item1", "item2" and so forth with the actual files identities.
Backage it into a .zip folder and uploaded to a website for us to download. Yes, that's what Roxanne is asking ... The change-log is far shorter for each item, and the folder will also give us access to both the change-log.txt and the backup files the game has ... so we can see where the fault actually lies. Which is why Roxanne asked for this.
Edited by The Imp, 18 November 2015 - 02:09 PM.
Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit).
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.
#792
Roxanne
-
- Member
- 3564 posts
Modder
Posted 18 November 2015 - 01:57 PM
Why stop adding features? Bugs can be fixed over time and users help with that by reporting. Even major bugs can be patched in a game-in-progress, and the consequence of even a major bug is just that a user might have to wait for a fix before continuing the game. So if roxanne wants to add new features also, I say go ahead.Sure she can add new features whenever she likes. It's just a common way how software releases work. At some point you have a feature freeze and publish the software as beta state, which is then used to find and fix as many bugs as possible before the release. After the release a new cycle starts, where new features will be added.
Adding new features into a piece of software always adds new bugs too, that's imho something to keep in mind when talking about extending software.
This is how software once was classified - but things have changed a bit over time.
Just a quote from Syneticworld published March 2015
"“beta” refers to the final stage of software development just before the product is launched to the marketplace. In this stage, the product is typically highly functional and is being used by a community of “beta users” to test it out and provide feedback before the product is finalized. In recent years, because of the ease of distribution that the Internet provides, the line between beta and final product has blurred.
Today, products like Gmail exist in beta for years in widespread use by millions of customers, with the development team making constant tweaks to functionality and appearance based on how they see the users interact with the product."
And just another quote
*Perpetual beta (or ‘banana principle’) is the keeping of software or a system at the beta development stage for an extended or indefinite period of time. It is often used by developers when they continue to release new features that might not be fully tested. Perpetual beta software is not recommended for mission critical machines. However, many operational systems find this to be a much more rapid and agile approach to development, staging, and deployment.*
Having to move to Github after the SHS download system's decay has let me explore those features a bit and I found it supports this approach very well. Whenever someone downloads the mod, it will be the latest alpha tested version of it, so not every new player has to go through all the already known issues and bugs once again but has everything found before fixed already. Same of course goes for new contents.
I think it takes quite a bit of time to play once through the whole trilogy and it takes even longer with Sandrah installed, Thus reports about issues are very unevenly spread since not all parts of the game are examined at the same time. I can see no issue to sequentially improving the mod starting at the initial part while still receiving reports about issues in later parts that have not yet been touched. In this particular case we talk about a story that is evolving. (A special issue are those features that are more permanent, like the personal items or general scripts of the NPCs - but again, why let every new player experience defiencenciesthat are already solved.)
#793
Roxanne
-
- Member
- 3564 posts
Modder
Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:04 PM
The above doesn't of course exclude the possibility of continuing to add stuff, and altering them ... but that will just make it a bit more open ended project.
But it's harder to do the .tra fication and translation based on non standard files.
This is perfectly true - and an issue I very well consider. There is no translation foreseen yet due to the fact that there are no stable files (I am working on the German translation myself currently but only since I have control of the affected files all the time and can keep them synchronized,)
And very much yes and yes - I see this as a kind of open ended project and this is why I currently struggle to make up my mind of how to proceed within the BWP/BWS frame and why I threw into the discussion the option to maybe better kick the mod out of there. (Nicer to decide that yourself instead of being thrown out by others.)
Edited by Roxanne, 18 November 2015 - 02:06 PM.
#794
waebbl
-
- Member
- 29 posts
Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:10 PM
Even Software developpers are not following standard definitions about this anymore, so whatever we call it, it is work-in-progress.Although your beta test has started back in April, it is, as I view it, strictly speaking not a beta test. In the past months, you have added new features into the mod, whereas a feature freeze is one of the defining rules of a beta test, so I would say, we're still in an alpha test phase ;-)
I've not actively developed software for quite some time now, and I'm not aware of current techniques of a software release cycle. Software always has been a work-in-progress, it's just about how you organise the progress. I'm pretty sure, you have your way of how to develop, enhance and fix the code. I've made the experience that it's been questionable to always add new features, while you are trying to fix bugs at the same time. It's likely you never come to and end, i.e. a release this way. That's basically what I wanted to say about a temporary feature freeze, even if the term feature freeze isn't used anymore.
I have lost any hope that Sandrah will ever be anything else but expert for some dedicated players.
If you follow the other threads and discussion on SHS and any other Baldur Gate forum, you will have noticed the trend of having a large wide-open game platform with loosely coupled events and the opportunity to go into BGT, IWD, IWD2 and whatever with thousands of kits to select - the contents becomes irrelevant. Sandrah tries to do the opposite, she creates a kind of very long road through the game - but still a road - from Candlekeep to Throne of Bhaal and tries to tell a story here. Sounds to me like a dinosaur approach now,
I've just been coming back to BG a few months ago, after several years of absence and am not following the forums very closely. In fact beside this forum, I only read the kerzenburg forum, but both of them not every day. My time does not allow for this. I haven't noticed the trend you speak of. NEJ has been around for a long time already, so adding the content of other IE based games is nothing new or trendy. I personally come from a pnp rpg background and love narrative mods which contain some depth, as such, Sandrah is absolutely right for me, but then, it's just me and my opinion.
#795
waebbl
-
- Member
- 29 posts
Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:14 PM
Why stop adding features? Bugs can be fixed over time and users help with that by reporting. Even major bugs can be patched in a game-in-progress, and the consequence of even a major bug is just that a user might have to wait for a fix before continuing the game. So if roxanne wants to add new features also, I say go ahead.Sure she can add new features whenever she likes. It's just a common way how software releases work. At some point you have a feature freeze and publish the software as beta state, which is then used to find and fix as many bugs as possible before the release. After the release a new cycle starts, where new features will be added.
Adding new features into a piece of software always adds new bugs too, that's imho something to keep in mind when talking about extending software.
This is how software once was classified - but things have changed a bit over time.
Just a quote from Syneticworld published March 2015
"“beta” refers to the final stage of software development just before the product is launched to the marketplace. In this stage, the product is typically highly functional and is being used by a community of “beta users” to test it out and provide feedback before the product is finalized. In recent years, because of the ease of distribution that the Internet provides, the line between beta and final product has blurred.
Today, products like Gmail exist in beta for years in widespread use by millions of customers, with the development team making constant tweaks to functionality and appearance based on how they see the users interact with the product."
And just another quote
*Perpetual beta (or ‘banana principle’) is the keeping of software or a system at the beta development stage for an extended or indefinite period of time. It is often used by developers when they continue to release new features that might not be fully tested. Perpetual beta software is not recommended for mission critical machines. However, many operational systems find this to be a much more rapid and agile approach to development, staging, and deployment.*
Having to move to Github after the SHS download system's decay has let me explore those features a bit and I found it supports this approach very well. Whenever someone downloads the mod, it will be the latest alpha tested version of it, so not every new player has to go through all the already known issues and bugs once again but has everything found before fixed already. Same of course goes for new contents.
I think it takes quite a bit of time to play once through the whole trilogy and it takes even longer with Sandrah installed, Thus reports about issues are very unevenly spread since not all parts of the game are examined at the same time. I can see no issue to sequentially improving the mod starting at the initial part while still receiving reports about issues in later parts that have not yet been touched. In this particular case we talk about a story that is evolving. (A special issue are those features that are more permanent, like the personal items or general scripts of the NPCs - but again, why let every new player experience defiencenciesthat are already solved.)
Thanks for this post, I was not aware of this development!
#796
The Imp
-
- Member
- 5155 posts
Not good, see EVIL is better. You'll LIVE.
Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:17 PM
@waebbl: I edited the post above ... to add a message to you, could you re-read it ? Thanks.
Thanks for this post, I was not aware of this development!
Wha ?!? You must have lived in the jungle the last 100 years. Let's just take any Television program... it's not sold by the dozens of episodes by what has already happened in it in repeats... most of the time at least. Ouh, yeah, a TV program couldn't be compared into a computer program, except perfectly in this scope, and the word program. Yeah, must have been my insanity creeping back. Sorry. 
Back to the actual topic.
Edited by The Imp, 18 November 2015 - 04:38 PM.
Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit).
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.
#797
waebbl
-
- Member
- 29 posts
Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:41 PM
And the results ? The end result, that is the change-log folder in the game folder after you have ran these .bat command lines with the faulty items edited into the code:mkdir change-log WeiDU.exe --log nul --change-log item1.itm >change-log/change-log.txt --out change-log WeiDU.exe --log nul --change-log item2.itm >change-log/change-log.txt --out change-logWhere you just replace the "item1", "item2" and so forth with the actual files identities.
Backage it into a .zip folder and uploaded to a website for us to download. Yes, that's what Roxanne is asking ... The change-log is far shorter for each item, and the folder will also give us access to both the change-log.txt and the backup files the game has ... so we can see where the fault actually lies. Which is why Roxanne asked for this.
I've done this without redirecting. Wasn't seeing it as a request for sending the output, as this error clearly does not belong to the mod. But here it is...
Attached Files
-
change-log.7z 4.59K
204 downloads
Edited by waebbl, 18 November 2015 - 02:41 PM.
#798
waebbl
-
- Member
- 29 posts
Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:47 PM
@waebbl: I edited the post above ... to add a message to you, could you re-read it ? Thanks.Thanks for this post, I was not aware of this development!Wha ?!? You must have lived in the jungle the last 100 years. Let's just take any Television program... it's not sold by the dozens of episodes by what has already happened in it in repeats... most of the time at least. Ouh, yeah, a TV program couldn't be compared into a computer program, except perfectly in this scope, and the word program. Yeah, must have been my insanity creeping back. Sorry.
Hehe almost Have been living in a hospital (for work, not as a patient) and completely got software development out of my mind 
And just for the protocol... I'm totally abstinent of watching any TV for ~25 years by now 
Just watching documentaries, which are usually streamable on the net.
#799
The Imp
-
- Member
- 5155 posts
Not good, see EVIL is better. You'll LIVE.
Posted 18 November 2015 - 05:40 PM
The same program concept that's any TV show has can be directly applied to a online docimentaries, they are no just a 42 minutes of random raw footage, but 42 minutes of the important and conceptually precisively picked footage that supports the premise, in the cutting room, or 9 minutes ... whatever that might be. Mens at Mars... there, see the humanoid faced temple in Mars, and so forth~not really. Or what happened in The Great War 100 years ago, last week. This is even worse actually in a documents usually, as the program usually tries to give a message on to the people by having a precise premise, so the footage is made picture perfect usually.
Why 42 minutes, cause it's easy to round that to 55 or 60 minute show with commertial ads etc. TV industry standards, yep, even the web documents are subject to those standards. The youtube isn't exactly yet, but it's getting worse, as the moneys controls it too.
If you follow the other threads and discussion on SHS and any other Baldur Gate forum, you will have noticed the trend of having a large wide-open game platform with loosely coupled events and the opportunity to go into BGT, IWD, IWD2 and whatever with thousands of kits to select - the contents becomes irrelevant. Sandrah tries to do the opposite, she creates a kind of very long road through the game - but still a road - from Candlekeep to Throne of Bhaal and tries to tell a story here. Sounds to me like a dinosaur approach now,
The question I have about this... well, is, but does the road have to be the exact one you see ? Can't it have a sideturns you never saw, that others have worked hard to produce ? By restricting the content to "Imoen has to be a Mage from the first encounter with a mage", you lock a lot of doors and all the window too, onto that part of the road. And she wasn't a mage in the original game, she got to be one in BG2, and she could be in BG1 too, but she was never forced to the player as such in BG1. It made the game better by offering that. Yes, she was kinda there as a thief in BG2, but that doesn't mean that people hated her for that, especially when it came to the gear that could make a dualed thief mage good, better than a pure mage. I think that's where the NEJ too failed a lots, it gave characters ... but the main one it enforces to the player... or the player just dies. Try to be a Evil mage, when you have to be good to kiss the %&¤S of a freaking paladin, to not die.
Now, yes, you offered a way around that... but Imoen, who the player is likely to want to have a thief and then dual to a mage at a point of their own choosing is denied of the option to have the dialog road you worked so hard to produce. It's not a golden brick road, it's a freaking concreat bridge build on top of the players feet, and they are part of the road.
What the BWP tries to do is to allow a lots of options, you can take a lots of them, but they are there as the scenary, the player can choose to option one thing or another, some roads will be cut during the travel as other open, but there's no one line you have to walk, you can go or at least try to go around as much as you wish, you get to save a lots of people, or you can walk pass them and never see them again. All the while the original plot is still there, if you take it, some of the NPCs might get testy and leave you, but the original ones won't ... unless they too were changed to be "more realistic" to their character, whatever that might mean, but usually not.
Also the BWS allows the player to choose to install the Level 1 NPC mods NPC components, and make her a class x with kit y. By this you have no chance even if you force the player to make the choise to make her a mage ... that she will definitelly be a mage. It's really up to the player, not you. Or they could just use the ShadowKeeper... but that shouldn't be nessasary EVER.
The point... don't be extreamly diffucult, you'll never succeed if you try. The dialog can be what you wrote even if she is not a mage, she could just happen to know what's talked about cause she has the intellegence to become a mage eventually. Is that too difficult to understand ? To her, nope.
Could she not be the heavy rocker chick in a band of 5 other bards that will evenually slay the rich dragons and burn down the inns just cause the drunken dwarf said some harsh words to one of them gang. And still have the same talk that the mage Imoen had ?
Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit).
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.
#800
Roxanne
-
- Member
- 3564 posts
Modder
Posted 18 November 2015 - 11:46 PM
The same program concept that's any TV show has can be directly applied to a online docimentaries, they are no just a 42 minutes of random raw footage, but 42 minutes of the important and conceptually precisively picked footage that supports the premise, in the cutting room, or 9 minutes ... whatever that might be. Mens at Mars... there, see the humanoid faced temple in Mars, and so forth~not really. Or what happened in The Great War 100 years ago, last week. This is even worse actually in a documents usually, as the program usually tries to give a message on to the people by having a precise premise, so the footage is made picture perfect usually.
Why 42 minutes, cause it's easy to round that to 55 or 60 minute show with commertial ads etc. TV industry standards, yep, even the web documents are subject to those standards. The youtube isn't exactly yet, but it's getting worse, as the moneys controls it too.If you follow the other threads and discussion on SHS and any other Baldur Gate forum, you will have noticed the trend of having a large wide-open game platform with loosely coupled events and the opportunity to go into BGT, IWD, IWD2 and whatever with thousands of kits to select - the contents becomes irrelevant. Sandrah tries to do the opposite, she creates a kind of very long road through the game - but still a road - from Candlekeep to Throne of Bhaal and tries to tell a story here. Sounds to me like a dinosaur approach now,The question I have about this... well, is, but does the road have to be the exact one you see ? Can't it have a sideturns you never saw, that others have worked hard to produce ? By restricting the content to "Imoen has to be a Mage from the first encounter with a mage", you lock a lot of doors and all the window too, onto that part of the road. And she wasn't a mage in the original game, she got to be one in BG2, and she could be in BG1 too, but she was never forced to the player as such in BG1. It made the game better by offering that. Yes, she was kinda there as a thief in BG2, but that doesn't mean that people hated her for that, especially when it came to the gear that could make a dualed thief mage good, better than a pure mage. I think that's where the NEJ too failed a lots, it gave characters ... but the main one it enforces to the player... or the player just dies. Try to be a Evil mage, when you have to be good to kiss the %&¤S of a freaking paladin, to not die.
Now, yes, you offered a way around that... but Imoen, who the player is likely to want to have a thief and then dual to a mage at a point of their own choosing is denied of the option to have the dialog road you worked so hard to produce. It's not a golden brick road, it's a freaking concreat bridge build on top of the players feet, and they are part of the road.
What the BWP tries to do is to allow a lots of options, you can take a lots of them, but they are there as the scenary, the player can choose to option one thing or another, some roads will be cut during the travel as other open, but there's no one line you have to walk, you can go or at least try to go around as much as you wish, you get to save a lots of people, or you can walk pass them and never see them again. All the while the original plot is still there, if you take it, some of the NPCs might get testy and leave you, but the original ones won't ... unless they too were changed to be "more realistic" to their character, whatever that might mean, but usually not.
Also the BWS allows the player to choose to install the Level 1 NPC mods NPC components, and make her a class x with kit y. By this you have no chance even if you force the player to make the choise to make her a mage ... that she will definitelly be a mage. It's really up to the player, not you. Or they could just use the ShadowKeeper... but that shouldn't be nessasary EVER.
The point... don't be extreamly diffucult, you'll never succeed if you try. The dialog can be what you wrote even if she is not a mage, she could just happen to know what's talked about cause she has the intellegence to become a mage eventually. Is that too difficult to understand ? To her, nope.
Could she not be the heavy rocker chick in a band of 5 other bards that will evenually slay the rich dragons and burn down the inns just cause the drunken dwarf said some harsh words to one of them gang. And still have the same talk that the mage Imoen had ?
Your arguments are correct, just your example is not - the Imoen related stuff you talk about IS one of those possible sidetracks you talk about, you can CHOOSE or leave aside. I have tried to avoid any of those NEJ traps where you are forced to do something - or game over, The requirements to play her through the game from my point of view are quite reasonable (have her in the party upon the transitions between the various parts, help her solve her quests like she helps you with yours). There are very few timed events by her (and those that are only present you the new quest - you know about it but you can put it to your afenda just as you want). And sure, you can take her into regions of the game I have not considered without problems - only if you want to see the end of her plot you need to follow the main plot roughly through the game (which I think is the BGT concept as such).
And yes, you are free to tweak any NPC into whatever you want - you will just loose (optional) contents from my mod that was related to that NPC. So I see no real problem in all of that.
Only, of you want to slash your way through a tactical game where any NPC banter is annoying you and new quests would divert you from your planned route there is another nice option you have - do not install a story-telling mod like Sandrah, you do not need her and you will not like her.
