1192 replies to this topic

[Roxanne]

@Roxanne:

@908=~ Install Consistent Imoen
Choose one
[1] Imoen appears as a mage throughout the game, 
she will have additional contents and three major quests with Sandrah in BG1. 
She will appear again in Return to Faerun. 
Original content and Imoen related mods are not affected by this change.
[2] No change for Imoen, she will be incompatible with this mod.~
@909=~ Your choice of Imoen is not compatible with the Sandrah mod and Return to Faerun. Installation abandonded.~

That's not an actual choice, you could just make the other option to not include this code portion:

COPY_EXISTING ~Imoen1.CRE~ ~override/Imoen1.CRE~
              ~Imoen2.CRE~ ~override/Imoen2.CRE~
              ~Imoen4.CRE~ ~override/Imoen4.CRE~
              ~Imoen6.CRE~ ~override/Imoen6.CRE~
              ~Imoen15.CRE~ ~override/Imoen15.CRE~
              ~Imoen61.CRE~ ~override/Imoen61.CRE~
              ~Imoen10.CRE~ ~override/Imoen10.CRE~
              ~Imoen211.CRE~ ~override/Imoen211.CRE~
              ~Imoen213.CRE~ ~override/Imoen213.CRE~
              ~Imoendrm.cre~ ~override/Imoendrm.CRE~
 WRITE_LONG 0x244 0 //Kit
 WRITE_BYTE 0x273 1 //Class Mage
 WRITE_BYTE 0x238 17 // 17 STR
 WRITE_ASCII 0x34 ~Nimoens~
 WRITE_ASCII 0x3c ~Nimoenm~

And it would be totally fine. Name the component, "Story inconsistent Imoen". And make it an optional component, not a choice of aborting the mod install.

You are right, it is not an actual choice, it is rather a disclaimer telling you what to expect when you install the mod. If you do not want that, you should not install the mod. Same goes for Minsc who gets a story in SoA and as a consequence will not be available for ToB afterwards.

Sandrah is all about getting new experiences into the game for those who have already played Imoen the thief for the 25th time and really want something new this time around.

Both changes are not really options because they are essential enablers for the Return to Faerun sequel.

(No one reads readme's these days)

[The Imp]

Sandrah is all about getting new experiences into the game for those who have already played Imoen the thief for the 25th time and really want something new this time around.

Sorry, but if the player wanted that, they could just choose to install the Imoen component from the Level 1 NPCs, and they would have tons of choices. Or yours, if you provide one, that is !
Now the message is this actually: MAKE THE CHOICE AVAILABLE ! ... you are like an Elcor with "Rhetorically: Ouh you don't want this, I'll flip you the finger then. Hah."

 

And why would she have a STR of 17 if she is a mage ? While not being one ... she doesn't ?

This is because people use the BWS to install their mods, they don't need to read every nittycritty thing in their install debug and so they miss large clues ... just check the other thread for evidence.

(No one reads readme's these days)

That's not a new thing ... it's been there for 10 years, it won't change because of you. Or in the next 90 years. You'll have to learn to live with it.

Edited by The Imp, 16 October 2015 - 10:59 PM.

[Lollorian]

This is because people use the BWS to install their mods, they don't need to read every nittycritty thing in their install debug and so they miss large clues ... just check the other thread for evidence.

(No one reads readme's these days)

That's not a new thing ... it's been there for 10 years, it won't change because of you. Or in the next 90 years. You'll have to learn to live with it.

Which is bad no?

 

Anyway, restricting practically your entire 700MB+ worth of content just because someone wants Imoen remain a thief is not exactly ideal either But anyway - your call. Maybe you'll be flooded with requests to consider otherwise

[The Imp]

Which is bad no?

Well, considering on how much you have to read just to install the BWS one time... you might wish to avoid hiding things in some .doc file that no one can even read most of the time(we don't have the office version of the Wormdoors :wink: ).

Besides, the way the choice is coded in the mod, the BWS can't allow the player to have any other input other than "I do want the Mage Imoen", because the choice is made with an insert, and it's not a component choice ! As in, the whole thing becomes invisible ! Because the way it was chosen to be made ! *

*Yes, to read that you have to highlight it.

Edited by The Imp, 16 October 2015 - 11:10 PM.

[Roxanne]

This is because people use the BWS to install their mods, they don't need to read every nittycritty thing in their install debug and so they miss large clues ... just check the other thread for evidence.

(No one reads readme's these days)

That's not a new thing ... it's been there for 10 years, it won't change because of you. Or in the next 90 years. You'll have to learn to live with it.

Which is bad no?

 

Anyway, restricting practically your entire 700MB+ worth of content just because someone wants Imoen remain a thief is not exactly ideal either But anyway - your call. Maybe you'll be flooded with requests to consider otherwise

It is just what I wanted to avoid!!!

 

We are not talking about technical options here but about concept:

 

If having Imoen as a mage is already stressing your imagination to the limit - the rest of the giant mod is definitely not for you.

Making each and every change an option will break the consistency of the mod in itself.

 

So it is REALLY my intention to prevent someone to install said 700MB+ of content into the game for a mod they will never like.

Imoen is just my randomly selected test balloon here, I could as well have chosen another example (and test).

I tried to make that as transparent to everyone as possible, be it by readme or mod description on the download page.

Sandrah is NOT another NPC with some banters, and a romance, and a little optional quest on the side. It is a saga alongside the Bhaalspawn story that feeds into a new optional ending of the game at the ToB final which leads into the sequel RtF.

[Roxanne]

Which is bad no?

Well, considering on how much you have to read just to install the BWS one time... you might wish to avoid hiding things in some .doc file that no one can even read most of the time(we don't have the office version of the Wormdoors :wink: ).

From the side of the mod I am not hiding it but make it very clear by this option at the very beginning of the mod to make you aware of the change.

The BWS automatically making the choice for you is beyond my control, I thnik it does what it can by putting it to expert install already.

Besides, the way the choice is coded in the mod, the BWS can't allow the player to have any other input other than "I do want the Mage Imoen", because the choice is made with an insert, and it's not a component choice ! As in, the whole thing becomes invisible ! Because the way it was chosen to be made ! *

*Yes, to read that you have to highlight it.

This is BWS, not the mod itself. Installing the mod by yourself would make the thing clear, BWS is beyond what I can control.

[The Imp]

We are not talking about technical options here but about concept:

Well, most of the big mods were made as a stand alone mods, you are choosing to opt them in in your mod... making it conceptional incompatible with everything in it, basically.

From the side of the mod I am not hiding it but make it very clear by this option at the very beginning of the mod to make you aware of the change.
The BWS automatically making the choice for you is beyond my control, I thnik it does what it can by putting it to expert install already.

Well there's ways to go about things. The excuse that it's an eXpert mod doesn't actually apply here as well... as the BWS is not BWP, the ..P one being where you choose which kinds of mods you choose to install and do so with a .bat file(s), one option being the eXpert mods too, while the ...S being where you choose them on individual on component bases ! Have you actually played the game with BWS ? ... After the relaunch that is where it was not just a mod based choice anymore.

Edited by The Imp, 16 October 2015 - 11:35 PM.

[geh4th]

I discovered this limitation the hard way when installing BWP...I wanted to play the Sandrah mod but I'm the type of player who is fixated with the image of Imoen as a thief who ends up (sooner or later) as a mage as well. How this goal is reached is flexible as far as I'm concerned, but having her as a thief from the start of BG1 is not negotiable, new content notwithstanding. Of course, this is all personal opinion. Still, it's necessary to say so because not ALL people who have played this game umpteen million times want to see something totally new from a very familiar character.

 

My solution was to (obviously) install this component - it did cause me to have to abort my previous install when I realized Sandrah wouldn't work with the Imoen component unselected - but then use an editor after she joined to change Imoen to a multiclass mage/thief, thanks to the BG2 Tweak Pack component that allows humans to multiclass. This has worked out quite well so far, allowing me to have her reflect both a thief upbringing but also learning magecraft. I think of this conceptually as her initially picking up some magey skills and interest from the Candlekeep exposure (Gorion, etc, teaching her some stuff), and then she gets Tarnesh's spellbook early in the game. To me, it makes perfect sense.

 

As far as I can tell, this won't negatively affect her storyline as intended by the Sandrah mod, either.

[geh4th]

In fact....if you REALLY wanted to get creative, and if it would work out game-engine-wise, an idea would be to have Imoen START as a thief (normally) but then give the option to literally change class to either a pure mage or a multiclass mage-thief when she gets Tarnesh's spellbook.

 

I don't know much about modding, and thus I don't know whether such a thing can be scripted into a game or enabled via some sort of triggering event, but if it would (could?) work, the acquisition of Tarnesh's spellbook could be done such that a choice is presented to the player to:

 

A) keep her as a pure thief, essentially turning down the chance to learn magic;

B) change career path to that of a pure mage, or

C) do both, opting for the multiclass route.

 

Like I said, I don't know if it can be done, but the story would make sense if it could, and it would be a really cool way to allow the player to craft Imoen into the character type of his/her choice without having to resort to Level1NPCs or an editor to force things to work outside of the game itself.

 

Of course, if this were done then the Sandrah mod would have to be flexible enough to account for whichever career path was chosen with regards to future events. If she's a pure thief, some things perhaps wouldn't make sense if they're specifically intended for Imoen as a mage. (I've yet to see anything that insists that she should be a mage that I can think of, but it's still relatively early in my game. Sandrah is a very long mod and I have no idea what's down the road for her later in the story.)

[Roxanne]

I discovered this limitation the hard way when installing BWP...I wanted to play the Sandrah mod but I'm the type of player who is fixated with the image of Imoen as a thief who ends up (sooner or later) as a mage as well. How this goal is reached is flexible as far as I'm concerned, but having her as a thief from the start of BG1 is not negotiable, new content notwithstanding. Of course, this is all personal opinion. Still, it's necessary to say so because not ALL people who have played this game umpteen million times want to see something totally new from a very familiar character.

 

My solution was to (obviously) install this component - it did cause me to have to abort my previous install when I realized Sandrah wouldn't work with the Imoen component unselected - but then use an editor after she joined to change Imoen to a multiclass mage/thief, thanks to the BG2 Tweak Pack component that allows humans to multiclass. This has worked out quite well so far, allowing me to have her reflect both a thief upbringing but also learning magecraft. I think of this conceptually as her initially picking up some magey skills and interest from the Candlekeep exposure (Gorion, etc, teaching her some stuff), and then she gets Tarnesh's spellbook early in the game. To me, it makes perfect sense.

 

As far as I can tell, this won't negatively affect her storyline as intended by the Sandrah mod, either.

This is a very important aspect ot the Expert status >>> you are expert enough to make this kind of change - you know what you have done and you will know why one or another oddity later may result from it.

 

PS - I never pushed my mod into BWS in the first place - it was BWS that somehow adopted it (I only learned about it from some forum comments much later). But that is history...

[geh4th]

PS - I never pushed my mod into BWS in the first place - it was BWS that somehow adopted it (I only learned about it from some forum comments much later). But that is history...

 

The thing that works against you there is that the Sandrah mod is literally perfect for the "Big World" concept. She's an NPC that interacts with virtually every other NPC in the game (both vanilla and mod-added), with gazillions of quests that span the entire story from the beginning at Candlekeep to the climax of Throne of Bhaal, and then beyond. If there's any mod concept that's more "BIG WORLD" than that, I'm not sure what it is.

 

I don't mean any of my commentary as criticism. I'm really trying to encourage you. As a player, having options and flexibility is greatly desirable, but I totally understand that as a modder, that may be equally a nightmare. Finding that balance is always the key.

Edited by geh4th, 16 October 2015 - 11:46 PM.

[Roxanne]

In fact....if you REALLY wanted to get creative, and if it would work out game-engine-wise, an idea would be to have Imoen START as a thief (normally) but then give the option to literally change class to either a pure mage or a multiclass mage-thief when she gets Tarnesh's spellbook.

 

I don't know much about modding, and thus I don't know whether such a thing can be scripted into a game or enabled via some sort of triggering event, but if it would (could?) work, the acquisition of Tarnesh's spellbook could be done such that a choice is presented to the player to:

 

A) keep her as a pure thief, essentially turning down the chance to learn magic;

B) change career path to that of a pure mage, or

C) do both, opting for the multiclass route.

 

Like I said, I don't know if it can be done, but the story would make sense if it could, and it would be a really cool way to allow the player to craft Imoen into the character type of his/her choice without having to resort to Level1NPCs or an editor to force things to work outside of the game itself.

 

Of course, if this were done then the Sandrah mod would have to be flexible enough to account for whichever career path was chosen with regards to future events. If she's a pure thief, some things perhaps wouldn't make sense if they're specifically intended for Imoen as a mage. (I've yet to see anything that insists that she should be a mage that I can think of, but it's still relatively early in my game. Sandrah is a very long mod and I have no idea what's down the road for her later in the story.)

Options B and C are worth inquiring a bit further from my point of view. Even the storyline would support it

- Imoen gets Tarnesh's spellbook

- Sandrah is a priestess of the Goddess of All Magic

- They are getting close friends already, thus Sandrah would be ideal to help Imoen to develop her dormant mage skills

- When Imoen finally appears mage in SoA this would be consistent.

- There is not really a need for Imoen to have mage skills prior to Tarnesh, not until she meets Henning.

The only doubt I have is if option C is technically possible - I do not think you can change class to multiclass by script, spell or anything else but the character screen, but I need to study that further.

[The Imp]

PS - I never pushed ... But that is history...

Neither did any of the BiG mods the BiG World has, the TS and NEJ are hopelessly out of date, the TDD is off balance as %& and there's multiple other things, but we have the legacy of the BP to consider, a mod that was supposed to be retired more than 5 years ago. ... when the BWP came, or what ever.

The only doubt I have is if option C is technically possible - I do not think you can change class to multiclass by script, spell or anything else but the character screen, but I need to study that further.

The ToBEx doesn't do anything the game .cre file itself can't be coded to do. As in, you can write the multiclass in it. Now I don't know if you can make the game script make her ... ouf fuck, I actually have done a multi classing via a kit, you can't script dual classing, but multi classing is doable.

Edited by The Imp, 17 October 2015 - 12:09 AM.

[geh4th]

In fact....if you REALLY wanted to get creative, and if it would work out game-engine-wise, an idea would be to have Imoen START as a thief (normally) but then give the option to literally change class to either a pure mage or a multiclass mage-thief when she gets Tarnesh's spellbook.

 

I don't know much about modding, and thus I don't know whether such a thing can be scripted into a game or enabled via some sort of triggering event, but if it would (could?) work, the acquisition of Tarnesh's spellbook could be done such that a choice is presented to the player to:

 

A) keep her as a pure thief, essentially turning down the chance to learn magic;

B) change career path to that of a pure mage, or

C) do both, opting for the multiclass route.

 

Like I said, I don't know if it can be done, but the story would make sense if it could, and it would be a really cool way to allow the player to craft Imoen into the character type of his/her choice without having to resort to Level1NPCs or an editor to force things to work outside of the game itself.

 

Of course, if this were done then the Sandrah mod would have to be flexible enough to account for whichever career path was chosen with regards to future events. If she's a pure thief, some things perhaps wouldn't make sense if they're specifically intended for Imoen as a mage. (I've yet to see anything that insists that she should be a mage that I can think of, but it's still relatively early in my game. Sandrah is a very long mod and I have no idea what's down the road for her later in the story.)

Options B and C are worth inquiring a bit further from my point of view. Even the storyline would support it

- Imoen gets Tarnesh's spellbook

- Sandrah is a priestess of the Goddess of All Magic

- They are getting close friends already, thus Sandrah would be ideal to help Imoen to develop her dormant mage skills

- When Imoen finally appears mage in SoA this would be consistent.

- There is not really a need for Imoen to have mage skills prior to Tarnesh, not until she meets Henning.

The only doubt I have is if option C is technically possible - I do not think you can change class to multiclass by script, spell or anything else but the character screen, but I need to study that further.

 

Option B (basically dual-classing from thief to mage) would be pointless unless it's delayed in implementation. She's first level guaranteed when she gets her hands on Tarnesh's spellbook. However, acquiring the spellbook fits the narrative as you said.

 

(Edit: I take that back. I didn't even remember what I wrote a few minutes ago. Sorry. Option B is to totally change to a mage and forget being a thief, if that's even possible. I guess I'm talking about an option "B2" here, using Tarnesh's book as a plot device that eventually leads to her dualing to thief-mage.)

 

I'm not even sure exactly what Tarnesh's spellbook does for Imoen. As far as I can tell, when she uses it, she gains a point of Dexterity for a period of time, and the "luck" icon appears on her portrait. I don't know if that means she's basically cast luck upon herself or if it's another effect, but if these two effects are all that happens, then the book seems more a thief tool than a mage tool as things stand.

 

Maybe the book could be used to teach Imoen magey things as time passes (i.e. at levelup, or at experience waypoints), much like Rhialto's spellbook teaches a wild mage things as (a wild mage) <charname> levels up (if you don't know what I'm referring to, I encourage you to check out the Wild Mage mod). Seeing Imoen learning mage skills while still as a thief (ala the "Charming Rogue" kit that NEJ has) early in the game would be interesting, as she expands her horizons even before she actually does take the plunge and dual-classes to mage later on, at 7th level or whatever (according to the player's choice of course.)

Edited by geh4th, 16 October 2015 - 11:57 PM.

[Roxanne]

PS - I never pushed my mod into BWS in the first place - it was BWS that somehow adopted it (I only learned about it from some forum comments much later). But that is history...

 

The thing that works against you there is that the Sandrah mod is literally perfect for the "Big World" concept. She's an NPC that interacts with virtually every other NPC in the game (both vanilla and mod-added), with gazillions of quests that span the entire story from the beginning at Candlekeep to the climax of Throne of Bhaal, and then beyond. If there's any mod concept that's more "BIG WORLD" than that, I'm not sure what it is.

 

I don't mean any of my commentary as criticism. I'm really trying to encourage you. As a player, having options and flexibility is greatly desirable, but I totally understand that as a modder, that may be equally a nightmare. Finding that balance is always the key.

I could not have said it better. I am just afraid that some players are not willing to pay the price for the gain of a new game experience - the want to keep their pie and eat it, too.

Imoen is just the peak of the iceberg - start with her and find Edwin helping old ladies across the road or Ajantis making love to a woman with marrying her first or Viconia finally breaking with Shar....making all of that optional is not just a nightmare but simply impossible without breaking the whole plot of the saga.

Nevertheless I will look into the Imoen change option you proposed for technical feasibility in the longer time.

[The Imp]

There needs to be less writing & editing and more re-reading in this thread. Just thinking out aloud, sorry. You read the texts above ? Good, go ahead and write.

Anyways: Still, you should consider allowing the three options of; Imoen: Mage, Thief(original, non story consistent), and Thief/Mage multiclass. The duals come from the others, and there's no point in scripting it in.

Edited by The Imp, 17 October 2015 - 12:37 AM.

[Roxanne]

There needs to be less writing & editing and more re-reading in this thread. Just thinking out aloud, sorry. You read the texts above ? Good, go ahead and write.

Anyways: Still, you should consider allowing the three options of; Imoen: Mage, Thief(original, non story consistent), and Thief/Mage multiclass. The duals come from the others, and there's no point in scripting it in.

I have considered the three options.

If the choice is not made already by the installation (Problem with BWS/BWP automation) it should be done very early in the game by the PC. Two options exist

a) before leaving Candlekeep in the conversation with Imoen there.

b) when finding Tarnesh spellbook and Sandrah is with you.

Option a) would put the Imoen of your choice to the joining scene at Gorion's death site and make Sandrah appear in the game or not, depending on your choice.

Option b) is a bit more tricky but possible, it will either keep thief Imoen or replace her by a mage or thief/mage character after some discussion with Imoen,PC and Sandrah about pros and cons and the final decision by PC. Sandrah will leave you (claiming you are a tyrant overruling your friend's wishes while Imoen stays with you) if you continue with thief Imoen. Otherwise you get a revised Imoen character according to your choice and the Friendly Arm is right there to equip her accordingly.

[geh4th]

I have considered the three options.

If the choice is not made already by the installation (Problem with BWS/BWP automation) it should be done very early in the game by the PC. Two options exist

a) before leaving Candlekeep in the conversation with Imoen there.

b) when finding Tarnesh spellbook and Sandrah is with you.

Option a) would put the Imoen of your choice to the joining scene at Gorion's death site and make Sandrah appear in the game or not, depending on your choice.

Option b) is a bit more tricky but possible, it will either keep thief Imoen or replace her by a mage or thief/mage character after some discussion with Imoen,PC and Sandrah about pros and cons and the final decision by PC. Sandrah will leave you (claiming you are a tyrant overruling your friend's wishes while Imoen stays with you) if you continue with thief Imoen. Otherwise you get a revised Imoen character according to your choice and the Friendly Arm is right there to equip her accordingly.

 

May I ask why using Imoen as a thief and not as a mage - this early in the BG1 - is conceptually incompatible with the Sandrah content? In other words, if a choice were made via script that Imoen was still to be a thief, why would you decide to make it so that Sandrah does not appear?

 

I mean, let's be real...canonically Imoen starts out as a thief who DOES eventually become a mage. Exactly what events happen vis-a-vis Sandrah so early in the game that Imoen being a thief would actually break (thematically, mechanically, or otherwise)? I've already asked about the effects of Tarnesh's spellbook above...it seems more thiefy than magey in practical use. Otherwise, I have yet to see any content within Sandrah-BG1 that would imply that Imoen *has* to be a mage, and I'm already at a point where she's long since had enough experience to have dual-classed to a mage at the traditional (and canonical) 7th level. So, in essence, I simply don't see whether she's a thief or a mage from the start of BG1 would really matter at all.

 

I don't think it's tyrannical in the least for a player to want Imoen to remain as she was originally designed. At the risk of offending you - I don't mean to, but it has to be said - it's actually more "tyrannical" for you as a mod designer to demand that a player use Imoen in a manner *you* envision than merely as her canonical self. Having Sandrah disappear/not appear - effectively disabling your own mod - simply doesn't seem an appropriate response to a player choice that disagrees with your view of Imoen's background.

[geh4th]

And please, forgive me if I'm overly blunt at times. I have a good bit of experience interacting with THE most notoriously "tyrannical" BG2 modder in the known universe, so it's a bit of a sore point for me. You are nothing like him, and I don't want the words we're tossing about to come across as insulting.

 

I do *NOT* think that your Sandrah vision is flawed nor do I think you really are a tyrant for wanting players to think of Imoen as a mage rather than a thief...I'm just trying to get you to see things from a perspective you might not be considering.

[Oracle]

Hi cant seem to find the lair in cloud peak mountains in the shard quest i have found the lake but the scroll says there no portal .