1192 replies to this topic

[Roxanne]

Yeah, I installed many of them and they seem to work fine^^

 

Looking forward to the evil PC stuff. It might look like an evil route in a way perhaps?

 

At least new conversations and ways of handling quests plus differently developing relationship with Sandrah would be rather promising

 

I looked at a lot of possibilities already, and honestly, as long as you do not become a mass murderer in Barldur city, she is already quite compatible with an evil character, as long as he/she stays rational. You gain nothing from her by giving Farmer Brun your gold, you only loose if you kill him as that makes no sense at all for her. Probably her only comment for siding with Bodhi is that she will warn you of a sure betrayal by the vampire. At one point in ToB she even suggests to join the Five (for the pratical purpose of gaining insight into the information they may have.)

 

Some of how she interacts with a *so-called* evil character can be found in her relationship to Shar-Teel or Sarevok.

 

So, in general, it is pretty hard to create a really *evil route* as my intention is to remain within the limits of the original game story, i.e. the evil route must ensure that you will be able to play through until ToB end, you must be able to finish Sandrah's quests and you must still be able to give the Solar a decision to continue into RtF. The way she is already designed currently, allows her to follow a PC quite some distance into the darkness.

 

What I still need is the overall justification for the *evil route*, something like the PC being some *Robin Hood* or someone intending to overturn the crusted authorities of Amn to *free the people*. If the PC is after power, wealth etc he/she must have a justification for the *why*, what does PC intent to do with the power of a god/semi-god or being the richest bandit on Toril? A bait that she is willing to swallow (and one she cannot find anywhere else).

[Samriel]

Well, by an evil PC I mean one who is willing to do really bad stuff to get things done BUT does not bad things done just for the pleasure of doing bad stuff.

 

So namely a good evil PC-for a route- would be a lawful evil type of guy. Evil and ruthless, willing to kick dogs and not letting mercy/compassion to get in his way but still having a bit of a code of honor and caring for his most loyal companions-as long as they do not try to betray him- instead of just being willing to kill everyone for the lulz.

 

Maybe a reason could be by showing Sandrah how many rulers are just as evil as him/her but less competent with ensuring the prosperity of the lands they rule over.

 

With the PC planning to become some God Emperor who while evil does his best to ensure that the lands under his/her command will prosper as he/she is still the best choice and is not a hypocrite unlike so many good aligned folks that deep down care only about themselves and let their lands rot with corruption or sheer incompetence.

 

Obviously a Chaotic Evil PC would have to "hypnotize" Sandrah with some corrupting artifact or something as who would follow a person who plans to kill everyone for no reason? A Chaotic evil Sandrah corrupted by such trinket could be interesting to watch though LOL

Edited by Samriel, 15 July 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[Roxanne]

Well, by an evil PC I mean one who is willing to do really bad stuff to get things done BUT does not bad things done just for the pleasure of doing bad stuff.

 

So namely a good evil PC-for a route- would be a lawful evil type of guy. Evil and ruthless, willing to kick dogs and not letting mercy/compassion to get in his way but still having a bit of a code of honor and caring for his most loyal companions-as long as they do not try to betray him- instead of just being willing to kill everyone for the lulz.

Jen'lig is supposed to represent this character (even if just another NPC). Sandrah's relationship to the githyanki clearly indicates how she deals with that category.

Maybe a reason could be by showing Sandrah how many rulers are just as evil as him/her but less competent with ensuring the prosperity of the lands they rule over.

 

With the PC planning to become some God Emperor who while evil does his best to ensure that the lands under his/her command will prosper as he/she is still the best choice and is not a hypocrite unlike so many good aligned folks that deep down care only about themselves and let their lands rot with corruption or sheer incompetence.

That was exactly my point. Sandrah as she stands now, would have no problem with such a PC. In RtF she actively supports the revolt of a party which is just the lesser evil compared to the current ruler, knowing that just removing the bad boss would leave the country without leadership and falling apart into chaos.

The more the game advances the more practical and less sentimental she becomes. To achieve some goal (and her goals grow over time), she is willing to accept a crooked route as long as that (*code of honor*) as you call it is not breached significantly.

Obviously a Chaotic Evil PC would have to "hypnotize" Sandrah with some corrupting artifact or something as who would follow a person who plans to kill everyone for no reason? A Chaotic evil Sandrah corrupted by such trinket could be interesting to watch though LOL

[Roxanne]

Well, by an evil PC I mean one who is willing to do really bad stuff to get things done BUT does not bad things done just for the pleasure of doing bad stuff.

 

So namely a good evil PC-for a route- would be a lawful evil type of guy. Evil and ruthless, willing to kick dogs and not letting mercy/compassion to get in his way but still having a bit of a code of honor and caring for his most loyal companions-as long as they do not try to betray him- instead of just being willing to kill everyone for the lulz.

Jen'lig is supposed to represent this character (even if just another NPC). Sandrah's relationship to the githyanki clearly indicates how she deals with that category.

Maybe a reason could be by showing Sandrah how many rulers are just as evil as him/her but less competent with ensuring the prosperity of the lands they rule over.

 

With the PC planning to become some God Emperor who while evil does his best to ensure that the lands under his/her command will prosper as he/she is still the best choice and is not a hypocrite unlike so many good aligned folks that deep down care only about themselves and let their lands rot with corruption or sheer incompetence.

That was exactly my point. Sandrah as she stands now, would have no problem with such a PC. In RtF she actively supports the revolt of a party which is just the lesser evil compared to the current ruler, knowing that just removing the bad boss would leave the country without leadership and falling apart into chaos.

The more the game advances the more practical and less sentimental she becomes. To achieve some goal (and her goals grow over time), she is willing to accept a crooked route as long as that (*code of honor*) as you call it is not breached significantly.

She is as far from any paladin type character as you can be without being EVIL yourself. Her NEUTRAL allegiance is implicit by her being a priestess of Mystra, the goddess that provides access to the Weave for good and evil gods alike.

Obviously a Chaotic Evil PC would have to "hypnotize" Sandrah with some corrupting artifact or something as who would follow a person who plans to kill everyone for no reason? A Chaotic evil Sandrah corrupted by such trinket could be interesting to watch though LOL

 

[Roxanne]

Well, by an evil PC I mean one who is willing to do really bad stuff to get things done BUT does not bad things done just for the pleasure of doing bad stuff.

 

So namely a good evil PC-for a route- would be a lawful evil type of guy. Evil and ruthless, willing to kick dogs and not letting mercy/compassion to get in his way but still having a bit of a code of honor and caring for his most loyal companions-as long as they do not try to betray him- instead of just being willing to kill everyone for the lulz.

Jen'lig is supposed to represent this character (even if just another NPC). Sandrah's relationship to the githyanki clearly indicates how she deals with that category.

Maybe a reason could be by showing Sandrah how many rulers are just as evil as him/her but less competent with ensuring the prosperity of the lands they rule over.

 

With the PC planning to become some God Emperor who while evil does his best to ensure that the lands under his/her command will prosper as he/she is still the best choice and is not a hypocrite unlike so many good aligned folks that deep down care only about themselves and let their lands rot with corruption or sheer incompetence.

That was exactly my point. Sandrah as she stands now, would have no problem with such a PC. In RtF she actively supports the revolt of a party which is just the lesser evil compared to the current ruler, knowing that just removing the bad boss would leave the country without leadership and falling apart into chaos.

The more the game advances the more practical and less sentimental she becomes. To achieve some goal (and her goals grow over time), she is willing to accept a crooked route as long as that (*code of honor*) as you call it is not breached significantly.

She is as far from any paladin type character as you can be without being EVIL yourself. Her NEUTRAL allegiance is implicit by her being a priestess of Mystra, the goddess that provides access to the Weave for good and evil gods alike.

Obviously a Chaotic Evil PC would have to "hypnotize" Sandrah with some corrupting artifact or something as who would follow a person who plans to kill everyone for no reason? A Chaotic evil Sandrah corrupted by such trinket could be interesting to watch though LOL

 

 

 

Well, by an evil PC I mean one who is willing to do really bad stuff to get things done BUT does not bad things done just for the pleasure of doing bad stuff.

 

So namely a good evil PC-for a route- would be a lawful evil type of guy. Evil and ruthless, willing to kick dogs and not letting mercy/compassion to get in his way but still having a bit of a code of honor and caring for his most loyal companions-as long as they do not try to betray him- instead of just being willing to kill everyone for the lulz.

Jen'lig is supposed to represent this character (even if just another NPC). Sandrah's relationship to the githyanki clearly indicates how she deals with that category.

Maybe a reason could be by showing Sandrah how many rulers are just as evil as him/her but less competent with ensuring the prosperity of the lands they rule over.

 

With the PC planning to become some God Emperor who while evil does his best to ensure that the lands under his/her command will prosper as he/she is still the best choice and is not a hypocrite unlike so many good aligned folks that deep down care only about themselves and let their lands rot with corruption or sheer incompetence.

That was exactly my point. Sandrah as she stands now, would have no problem with such a PC. In RtF she actively supports the revolt of a party which is just the lesser evil compared to the current ruler, knowing that just removing the bad boss would leave the country without leadership and falling apart into chaos.

The more the game advances the more practical and less sentimental she becomes. To achieve some goal (and her goals grow over time), she is willing to accept a crooked route as long as that (*code of honor*) as you call it is not breached significantly.

She is as far from any paladin type character as you can be without being EVIL yourself. Her NEUTRAL GOODallegiance is implicit by her being a priestess of Mystra, the godess that provides access to the Weave for good and evil gods alike.

Obviously a Chaotic Evil PC would have to "hypnotize" Sandrah with some corrupting artifact or something as who would follow a person who plans to kill everyone for no reason? A Chaotic evil Sandrah corrupted by such trinket could be interesting to watch though LOL

 

 

In hindsight it seems it  was my big mistake to exclude and EVIL PC in the beginning. The more I think of it (especially considering her in the second half of RtF) the right thing to do would be to exclude LAWFUL GOOD PCs instead. But for any PC recognizing that, it would be too late to bail out by that time because of the bond SHE has established to the PC.

Edited by Roxanne, 15 July 2015 - 08:20 AM.

[Samriel]

Still, I wonder how she would deal with say...a farmer revolt due to them being loyal to the previous ruler and with most of them being made from women and teen boys? Would Sandrah be willing to assist the PC in smacking such folks because their actions-while understandable- are a threat to the rule of the PC and potentially threaten the stability of the region? Would she be willing to REALLY get her hands dirty like that? Hmmm...

 

Its like assisting a slightly more honorable Darth Vader who is willing to choke those who defy him without pleading for a diplomatic solution-as that would be "wimpish" for such guy- instead of assisting someone like Joker who just loves seeing the world burn...

 

That said I noticed how she seems rather antagonistic towards people who serve evil gods even when said guys had not yet shown how much evil they actually are besides having business cards with the name of those evil gods. Kinda like how she were rather angry when I recruited Kido-a priest of Cyric-. So it looks like she got some prejudices at least when they come from followers of gods that are bitter enemies of her own goddess.

[Roxanne]

Still, I wonder how she would deal with say...a farmer revolt due to them being loyal to the previous ruler and with most of them being made from women and teen boys? Would Sandrah be willing to assist the PC in smacking such folks because their actions-while understandable- are a threat to the rule of the PC and potentially threaten the stability of the region? Would she be willing to REALLY get her hands dirty like that? Hmmm...

You will find the answer in the mod, the way she reacts to the people's revolt in the government area that happens there one night. (Ii is a CtB episode with Sandrah crossmod context)

Its like assisting a slightly more honorable Darth Vader who is willing to choke those who defy him without pleading for a diplomatic solution-as that would be "wimpish" for such guy- instead of assisting someone like Joker who just loves seeing the world burn...

Saying that she evaluates the acceptable methods against the value at stake implies that her aim is to keep the impact as low as possible.

That said I noticed how she seems rather antagonistic towards people who serve evil gods even when said guys had not yet shown how much evil they actually are besides having business cards with the name of those evil gods. Kinda like how she were rather angry when I recruited Kido-a priest of Cyric-. So it looks like she got some prejudices at least when they come from followers of gods that are bitter enemies of her own goddess.

Maybe you have not reached those scenes where the deeper motif for this is revealed. It is not the enemies of her goddess, her hatred is a far more personal issue based on own experience. Targets are Cyric (for quite obvious reasons that are one subject of her quest), red wizards of Thay (she will tell you about the first creature she had to kill and how she met Pelligram), necromancers and slavers. And talking of prejudice, yes, she openly admits them but is waiting for the example to prove her wrong (and it will happen).

[Samriel]

In an evil route I wonder if she would be willing to assist the PC in robbing some innocent-but very rich- people so as to gather the money necessary to pay either the Shadow Thieves or Bodhi for the trip to "Madman Isle" and rescue "besta friend" Imo as fast as possible.

 

Or threatening/blackmailing/outright beating up some sage who knows important stuff about Sarevok or Irenicus but is not willing to share it with the party. Like due to fear of being killed by them or due to being an elf he feels shame talking about Irenicus of all people. However, is a good, respectable and innocent person nevertheless and in the eyes of most good folks should not deserve such treatment. Maybe also beating the sage's kid son or wife in front of him to "motivate" him too.

 

Pragmatic evil can have a rather WIDE range of uses.

 

One could make a rather nasty "evil route" by letting the PC run wild by having appropriate excuses to justify such actions.

 

That said it is kinda sad how Sandrah can turn against the PC due to him/her having low reputation. It would seem more interesting if it happened if the PC did something REALLY nasty-and impossible to justify- during some major quest/s which is/are rather personal to Sandrah herself...

Edited by Samriel, 15 July 2015 - 09:23 AM.

[Roxanne]

In an evil route I wonder if she would be willing to assist the PC in robbing some innocent-but very rich- people so as to gather the money necessary to pay either the Shadow Thieves or Bodhi for the trip to "Madman Isle" and rescue "besta friend" Imo as fast as possible.

Out of scope, I would say. Getting the money for the trip by solving quests is essentilal part of the game, robbing some rich to advance quickly would ruin a whole chapter of SoA. For myself, I always chose those gameplay options that require a higher sum for the service in order to delay the trip.

Or threatening/blackmailing/outright beating up some sage who knows important stuff about Sarevok or Irenicus but is not willing to share it with the party. Like due to fear of being killed by them or due to being an elf he feels shame talking about Irenicus of all people. However, is a good, respectable and innocent person nevertheless and in the eyes of most good folks should not deserve such treatment. Maybe also beating the sage's kid son or wife in front of him to "motivate" him too.

You will find a number of situations where Sandrah (+ either the PC or some specific NPC) play this bad cop/good cop charade in order to get out information. These scenes show how far she will go. (Physical) brutality against innocents is not part of that repertoire.

Pragmatic evil can have a rather WIDE range of uses.

 

One could make a rather nasty "evil route" by letting the PC run wild by having appropriate excuses to justify such actions.

 

That said it is kinda sad how Sandrah can turn against the PC due to him/her having low reputation. It would seem more interesting if it happened if the PC did something REALLY nasty-and impossible to justify- during some major quest/s which is/are rather personal to Sandrah herself...

Like it or not, but the reputation concept as well as the alignment classification are part of how the game works. It is a simplification but we talk about a game and not about real life. You could do a lot of additional things but as a modder you have to be very careful not to averload your NPC (even one that has the whole trilogy + for playground). There are also other party members to react to a PC's course. It is not a good idea to design everything just for one PC/NPC relationship if it does not work for all the others as well. And, by the way, there are reactions if the PC rejects or spoils one of her major personal quests.

Edited by Roxanne, 15 July 2015 - 10:39 AM.

[Samriel]

 

Out of scope, I would say. Getting the money for the trip by solving quests is essentilal part of the game, robbing some rich to advance quickly would ruin a whole chapter of SoA. For myself, I always chose those gameplay options that require a higher sum for the service in order to delay the trip.

 

You will find a number of situations where Sandrah (+ either the PC or some specific NPC) play this bad cop/good cop charade in order to get out information. These scenes show how far she will go. (Physical) brutality against innocents is not part of that repertoire.

 

Yeah, but it could be just as much as 100 gold pieces. Rarely do I find much gold in houses of nobles in the government district. Still, the option to steal just that much from them would give the chance for the PC to look evil and yet pragmatic enough. True, rather petty as well but since killing innocents is off limits(as it makes for a quick bad end via bad reputation), killing baddies is a part of the normal playthrough and killing major neutral/good NPCs could make the game unwinnable then being a jerk is the most one can expect to go. Usually at least...

 

And true I do not expect Sandrah herself to actually beat up an innocent folk but her letting the PC(if only off-panel) do so without TOO MUCH complaining given the situation and how much is at stake...

 

That said evilness aside I would like to speak of a different thing this time. Namely I kinda noticed how in BG1 I rarely saw a truly "neutral" option in conversations with Sandrah. Maybe I should look over through it again but usually the PC can either say something nice to her or is a BIG jerk. Since I'm kinda interested in playing a "Just friends"/"You are not my type" route with Sandrah next time it would be more convenient if the PC got some dialogue options that are more neutralish and neither rise the love bar nor ask for open enmity between him/her and Sandrah. I guess I could just select one nice option once and one mean option second but it would feel as if my PC got some kind of mental illness or some sort of disorder to act in such an incomprehensible manner.

 

I could be wrong about that though as I did not count how all options stocked up. Just a feeling.

Edited by Samriel, 15 July 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Roxanne]

 

Out of scope, I would say. Getting the money for the trip by solving quests is essentilal part of the game, robbing some rich to advance quickly would ruin a whole chapter of SoA. For myself, I always chose those gameplay options that require a higher sum for the service in order to delay the trip.

 

You will find a number of situations where Sandrah (+ either the PC or some specific NPC) play this bad cop/good cop charade in order to get out information. These scenes show how far she will go. (Physical) brutality against innocents is not part of that repertoire.

Yeah, but it could be just as much as 100 gold pieces. Rarely do I find much gold in houses of nobles in the government district. Still, the option to steal just that much from them would give the chance for the PC to look evil and yet pragmatic enough. True, rather petty as well but since killing innocents is off limits(as it makes for a quick bad end via bad reputation), killing baddies is a part of the normal playthrough and killing major neutral/good NPCs could make the game unwinnable then being a jerk is the most one can expect to go. Usually at least...

 

And true I do not expect Sandrah herself to actually beat up an innocent folk but her letting the PC(if only off-panel) do so without TOO MUCH complaining given the situation and how much is at stake...

 

That said evilness aside I would like to speak of a different thing this time. Namely I kinda noticed how in BG1 I rarely saw a truly "neutral" option in conversations with Sandrah. Maybe I should look over through it again but usually the PC can either say something nice to her or is a BIG jerk. Since I'm kinda interested in playing a "Just friends"/"You are not my type" route with Sandrah next time it would be more convenient if the PC got some dialogue options that are more neutralish and neither rise the love bar nor ask for open enmity between him/her and Sandrah. I guess I could just select one nice option once and one mean option second but it would feel as if my PC got some kind of mental illness or some sort of disorder to act in such an incomprehensible manner.

 

I could be wrong about that though as I did not count how all options stocked up. Just a feeling.

 

Spoiler

1. There are seldom neutral options since Sandrah would not let you off the hook that easily. Trying to get out that way instead of answering would have her dig deeper (and already long conversations would get even longer)
2. A neutral answer would be worse than what you may take as a negative answer. For her it means you avoid her topic - not having your own point of view regardless if it matches hers or not is the ultra negative case. The *good* answers are often subtly different (often one of them is the real jerk)
3. You are not evaluated at each step of the conversation by her, just say what you feel you want to say.
4. Many conversations are not targeted at romance/non.romance. If you have not guessed it yet, her primary reason to study you is not aimed at that. Initially she wants to know if you are a bhaalspawn or not - once she thinks she knows that you are (which is not when you learn that you are) she tries to evaluate which type of spawn you are - later when you know it as well, she wants to find out what you will do with it. In the next phase...etc
5. It is not just counting *good* or *bad* answers, the way she values your relationship is more complex.

6. The only real way in the long term to avoid an intimate relationship with her is to kick her out. Usually she gets what she wants. Your romance with her is not the most important bond between you, it is just a side effect of two young people being together like that day and night. And Sandrah is much too impulsive to restrain herself under these circumstances.

7. And - why not treat her the same way, evaluate her by the questions/topics she raises?

Edited by Roxanne, 15 July 2015 - 11:37 AM.

[Samriel]

What if my answer were: "You are pretty but I find Imoen to be even prettier"/"You are not my type" instead of "You are the most beautiful" or "You suck"?

Or if there was an option to say "I like helping people but not for free" rather than "I love helping people" or "I'd gladly rob them all"?

Or if she asked my PC if he/she trusts her I could say "Yeah, but not as much as Imoen/Jaheira/Dynaheir". Or simply "Sorry, but I still need to get to know you better to answer that"/"Sorry, but I do not trust you yet"?

 

A neutral person should be able to have some sort of opinion. I mean...Jaheira got an opinion and is rather strong minded despite being neutral.

 

That said it would be interesting to see how angry Sandrah could get if the PC isn't actually doing anything mean. Guess it shows how women REALLY do not like guys that cannot make up their mind, heh. An indecisive protagonist sure gets hate in most media especially when caught in love triangles/quintets or worse *ouch*

 

Know what you want or you will end up empty handed..and punched for good measure^^

 

Still...what IF I actually played with a FEMALE protagonist?

 

4. Right, but she certainly took a measure of what kind of Bhaalspawn is the PC by the time she knows for sure that he/she is such. And its either "You have my trust so I will stay with you" or "You are evil Bhaalspawn and its time for you to die". Or maybe there are different views that Sandrah can have about the PC as a person(not friend/lover)?

5. Interesting!!

6. Awww, why my PC can't show some backbone and just plainly say "NO!" . There is always the first time one does not get everything *hmph*

7. True, but I feel that there are not enough options when the PC can get REALLY noisy. And she dodges/avoids the issue(at least during the first half of BG1) rather nicely. Cunning chick...

Edited by Samriel, 15 July 2015 - 12:16 PM.

[Roxanne]

What if my answer were: "You are pretty but I find Imoen to be even prettier" instead of "You are the most beautiful" or "You suck"?

Or if there was an option to say "I like helping people but not for free" rather than "I love helping people" or "I'd gladly rob them all"?

Or if she asked my PC if he/she trusts him I could say "Yeah, but not as much as Imoen/Jaheira/Dynaheir". Or simply "Sorry, but I still need to get to know you better to answer that"?

 

A neutral person should be able to have some sort of opinion. I mean...Jaheira got an opinion and is rather strong minded despite being neutral.

 

That said it would be interesting to see how angry Sandrah could get if the PC isn't actually doing anything mean. Guess it shows how women REALLY do not like guys that cannot make up their mind, heh. An indecisive protagonist sure gets hate especially when caught in love triangles/quintets or worse *ouch*

There is a bit of technical limitation in the game for all of that to work properly without making it a one talk-every-five-minutes game. Most of your topics are covered somewhere in the mod, but in many cases it is in Sandrah's relationship to any of the otther NPCs. The indecisive case would be Gavin (NPC) and how Sandrah interacts with him and his brother (Not a joinable NPC but you meet him if you have the Gavin mod installed).

You can write these *reaction to some prototype* kind of conversations if you have some defined counterpart. With a PC who can be just about everything (class, gender, alignment, race) this is nearly impossible unless you narrow it down to some trivial cases or you put limits to which type of PC is acceptable.

The issue with Sandrah specifically is, that this is not primarily a friendship/romance mod but also a story/quest mod, thus it already has a lot of contents.

However, having drafted some initial contents for that *evil path* aspect, I have already considered to make some of this path open for any player. (For example, to ask for your profit any time your help is needed is not only for the evil PC, even a good or neutral one may do so if your party runs out of useable weapons and you need money urgently. And, why should only a bad guy paint a cruel picture of what he would do with Sarevok if he got his hand on his throat? The guy killed the only loved person you had and is about to start a massive war - you are not bloodthirsty but this man lets you loose all restraint.) In the first case it would be easy for Sandrah to evaluate your asking for money against the party gold to deduct your motif, in the latter case she would put additional fuel to the fire to see where your limits really are.

Know what you want or you will end up empty handed^^

Definitely covered - you just need the right constellation for that in your party (Viconia? Shar-Teel? or maybe you have a female PC - what about Coran, Arath....)

Still...what IF I actually played with a FEMALE protagonist?

Ooops, how come you have not found THIS out by now?

Edited by Roxanne, 15 July 2015 - 12:27 PM.

[Samriel]

Ooops, how come you have not found THIS out by now?

 

Well, I do not play the mod just for romance/hot situations. I love just as much: many options to affect ALL kinds of things/plot twists/comedy/character development/heart-moving moments...

It is just hard to comment on all that stuff as I'm not done with the game yet and the main content which centers mainly around Sandrah will happen in RtF...so I'm still fairly away from that. Romances happen already so its easier to comment on what I saw^^

 

Also I do not like to start something when I'm still not finished with something else. That is why I let my female PC playthrough wait till I finish the male PC run. This also applies to NPCs, I do not like to throw/change NPCs during a run since I kinda grow attached to them. Furthermore, if I switch them then I only will get a glimpse of how Sandrah's bond develops with each of them. Finally, if I were to check all of her interactions with ALL NPCs there would be less surprises for me to discover during another run. I like to keep some things left unchecked so as to discover some new stuff next time ^^

 

Btw I edited my previous post with some new stuff while you were answering to some of the points I raised so you might've missed something. 

 

Its like we are on a roll with this thread being just us^^

Edited by Samriel, 15 July 2015 - 12:54 PM.

[Roxanne]

Ooops, how come you have not found THIS out by now?

 

Well, I do not play the mod just for romance/hot situations. I love just as much: many options to affect ALL kinds of things/plot twists/comedy/character development/heart-moving moments...

It is just hard to comment on all that stuff as I'm not done with the game yet and the main content which centers mainly around Sandrah will happen in RtF...so I'm still fairly away from that. Romances happen already so its easier to comment on what I saw^^

 

Also I do not like to start something when I'm still not finished with something else. That is why I let my female PC playthrough wait till I finish the male PC run. This also applies to NPCs, I do not like to throw/change NPCs during a run since I kinda grow attached to them. Furthermore, if I switch them then I only will get a glimpse of how Sandrah's bond develops with each of them. Finally, if I were to check all of her interactions with ALL NPCs there would be less surprises for me to discover during another run. I like to keep some things left unchecked so as to discover some new stuff next time ^^

Well, maybe then her relationship to women is not as obvious as I thought (Imoen or Jaheira not counting).

Btw I edited my previous post with some new stuff while you were answering to some of the points I raised so you might've missed something. 

4. Right, but she certainly took a measure of what kind of Bhaalspawn is the PC by the time she knows for sure that he/she is such. And its either "You have my trust so I will stay with you" or "You are evil Bhaalspawn and its time for you to die". Or maybe there are different views that Sandrah can have about the PC as a person(not friend/lover)?

This is the case - but it does not mean that she starts to talk about it right away. She has her own agenda by the time the Bhaalspawn story really starts to evolve. The reason to search you out initially and the reason to stay with you in the long term are not the same.

5. Interesting!!

6. Awww, why my PC can't show some backbone and just plainly say "NO!" . There is always the first time one does not get everything *hmph* Right, the option exists, but for some reason you did not take it. Hopefully it was because all other options appeared far more interesting.

7. True, but I feel that there are not enough options when the PC can get REALLY noisy. And she dodges/avoids the issue(at least during the first half of BG1) rather nicely. Cunning chick...True. But there is something else as well - until the last quarter of the game in SoA you are not her only option to reach her goal. She is just not changing horses in midstream >> She does not need you so badly that she has to accept everything. (Another liitle difficulty for the *evil path*, why would she hang on even when you push her patience to the limit? )

Spoiler

On the other hand, she is YOUR only chance to survive a certain deciision you make for the time after ToB, in the long run (the very long run) you need her more than she needs you..

Its like we are on a roll with this thread being just us^^

No it is not just us. Be careful, many eyes are reading this.

Edited by Roxanne, 15 July 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Samriel]

Well, maybe then her relationship to women is not as obvious as I thought (Imoen or Jaheira not counting).

She "shared" most chicks in my group(well 2 of them at least) so I guess she is truly a sharing type regardless of the genders involved. I wonder how she deals with rejection though

No it is not just us. Be careful, many eyes are reading this.

 

Awww, spoilsport...

 

 

That said how about making Sandrah a "heroic antagonist" to a PC who lets Bhaals evil rule his/her actions?

 

Like she fights the PC, loses and retreats before the death blow falls swearing to settle it the next time and conspiring to bring down an evil PC during subsequent fights? Like Irenicus got like 3 fights before he died. It would be lame to kill Sandrah like that during a Chaotic Evil Bhaalspawn run so make her reappear to have many battles against the PC would be cool.

 

Or maybe having different (colder responses) with PC if he shows as a "evil" Bhaalspawn compared to warmer responses during conversations if he/she follows the path of light/good? Also affecting love conversations and advices that the PC receives from her?

Edited by Samriel, 15 July 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[Roxanne]

Well, maybe then her relationship to women is not as obvious as I thought (Imoen or Jaheira not counting).

She "shared" most chicks in my group(well 2 of them at least) so I guess she is truly a sharing type regardless of the genders involved. I wonder how she deals with rejection though

Spoiler

Keep Chloe until you find Imoen again.

No it is not just us. Be careful, many eyes are reading this.

 

Awww, spoilsport...

 

 

That said how about making Sandrah a "heroic antagonist" to a PC who lets Bhaals evil rule his/her actions?

Spoiler

This already exists - but only if both (Sandrah + PC) have passed a certain point of no return in the game, i.e. the PC finally gets to know something an aspiring god of murder must never know about Sandrah.

Like she fights the PC, loses and retreats before the death blow falls swearing to settle it the next time and conspiring to bring down an evil PC during subsequent fights? Like Irenicus got like 3 fights before he died. It would be lame to kill Sandrah like that during a Chaotic Evil Bhaalspawn run so make her reappear to have many battles against the PC would be cool.

Long ago I laid this option aside.

By the time a PC reaches a status where he becomes a significant player in the Realms (i.e. after preventing Irenicus destruction of the tree of life), the same has become true for Sandrah. This would result in the fact that she will not be alone against the PC (even some other NPCs would rather ally with her than with the misled PC). So it would be Sandrah and her allies (including probably Drizzt, Elminster, The Temple of Waterdeep etc) versus PC and those still with him.

Probably a nice battle but in no way compliant with the game anymore.

Or maybe having different (colder responses) with PC if he shows as a "evil" Bhaalspawn compared to warmer responses during conversations if he/she follows the path of light/good? Also affecting love conversations and advices that the PC receives from her?

There are events and phases where her rational interest in the PC and her emotional interest are at odds and you will notice that *coldness*.

Edited by Roxanne, 15 July 2015 - 02:21 PM.

[Samriel]

Long ago I laid this option aside.

By the time a PC reaches a status where he becomes a significant player in the Realms (i.e. after preventing Irenicus destruction of the tree of life), the same has become true for Sandrah. This would result in the fact that she will not be alone against the PC (even some other NPCs would rather ally with her than with the misled PC). So it would be Sandrah and her allies (including probably Drizzt, Elminster, The Temple of Waterdeep etc) versus PC and those still with him.

Probably a nice battle but in no way compliant with the game anymore.

 

I meant if something like that were to happen in BG1 or in the first half of SoA. By then neither the PC nor Sandrah are THAT big mofos yet and Elminster does not seem to babysit Sandrah...

 

Granted that would mess up RtF if a fight erupted and one of them kicked the bucket so early...

 

But really, there are so many evil folks for the PC to ally with like the Shades, Red Wizards, Larloch, the churches of Shar/Talos/Cyric/Bane, Manshoon or the drow. There are plenty of evil guys to choose as allies that would gladly assist the PC if they were promised a good enough reward -and those who hold grudges against good guys like Elminster or Drizzt- come in great numbers. There is always some balance between good and evil...though in the 4th edition evil seemed to be "winning" but it seems to be changing with the 5th edition coming now.

 

Though it would be interesting if by the end of RtF depending on the player's actions he/she had a different final villain/"villain"(??) to fight.

 

I like different endings/outcomes.

 

I still think that Neverwinter Nights 2 MoB got one of the best evil endings EVER. Epic^^

Edited by Samriel, 15 July 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[Evani]

My kidnapping of Henning seems to be broken. I went to Tazok and realized there's nothing new in camp so I reloaded. Apart from the initial shop conversation, nothing else came up, even after I gave him a pelt and cleared the mines. I remembered that Imoen should have at least walked back to the Nashkel shop ( the game crashed due to random 1pp bugs so I didn't save that instance). What are the globals I should check?

[Roxanne]

My kidnapping of Henning seems to be broken. I went to Tazok and realized there's nothing new in camp so I reloaded. Apart from the initial shop conversation, nothing else came up, even after I gave him a pelt and cleared the mines. I remembered that Imoen should have at least walked back to the Nashkel shop ( the game crashed due to random 1pp bugs so I didn't save that instance). What are the globals I should check?

 Check this GetGlobal("SanImoNashInt","GLOBAL")

and yes, if you could go to Tazok in the usual way (Bandit Camp was on your map after you met Tranzig) then the quest did not start. I assume Imoen never received the gift Henning made for her from the pelt.