74 replies to this topic

[jester]

Tolkien and FR elves always confuse me! But then again apparently people are telling me if u read enough RR himself can be quite inconsistent.

I cannot find the thread anymore or even remember where I read that Jon acted out of jealousy. So Ellesime had a part in his downfall if I did not skip some Othello-eske plot involving Bodhi - BTW is this also her elven name as it harbours such a dark brooding promise to my ears-. Her self-righteousness is part of their disgusting FR-elven attitude of the torchbearers of eternity. Tolkiens elves are different as they are aware of their constant struggle and a paradise lost with the light of the trees, their eternity is one of regret and sorrow.

So if it had not been in the way of our - speaking the PCs- godhood Suldanessellar and her queen would have gotten what their past ill judgement had gotten them.

[Grey Acumen]

I always thought that Ellesime was decent enough, but the inherent arrogance of elves in general(not the snooty kind, just the general idea that they couldn't possibly make mistakes, because they are such a wise and learned race )

It sort of like the movie; The Mummy. I mean, who the hell would give someone who was obviously powerhungry more power? I think that Ellesime and the rest of the elven council(whatever) had underestimated just how powerful Jon could become.

[Sphira]

I find Ellesime arrogant and not as wise as she claims herself to be or as others do; it was this arrogance and naivety of love that made her believe that Joneleth would redeem himself. Deep down, I think she doesn?t understand the meaning of love nor responsibility. If she was truly so responsible or so wise of if she cared about her people; she would of executed Jon.

I think what made me cold to Ellesime was the fact she used past tense when speaking to Joneleth; that she swept everything away of him from her gaze. It bruised her pride and her ego. I would except her to move on, but she seems just as warm as Joneleth to you and towards others..

[Longinus]

I hate elves... so my perception of Ellesime is more than a little skewed. She and the elves of her home were responsible for creating Irenicus, or in the very least share some of the responsibility. They stripped him of his soul and brought his vengeance upon themselves. Ellesime should've merely exiled Irenicus, especially if he was still a good person at heart. Of course, Baldur's Gate 2 wouldn't be quite the same, now would it?

I loved making the elves pay for their isolationistic ways in Warcraft 3 by wiping them all out as the undead scourge. Elves are never prepared to deal with a problem unless it invades their homeland. Fools.

[dorotea]

I'd like to see a new poll: Is Ellesime responsible for Joneleth becoming Irenicus? (..not just symbolically, but to the point that she should also pay some sort of penance.) If so, just how responsible is she?

I think we might try to do this poll indeed. It sounds interesting. But maybe a bit later? When the tempers cool down a bit and I will feel like discussion again.

Thank you very much for the input!

[Hendryk]

Responsiblity is not a single thing, like a single coin, such that if one person has possession of it another cannot. Responsibility can be shared and almost always is. It is also not necessary for a person to have been a willing co-conspirator in a crime to have a share in the responsibility for a criminal act. Failure to perform some simple, reasonable and prudent act which would prevent a crime entails a *share* in the responsibility for it.

As the facts are given in SoA, Ellesime was in exactly situation in regard to Joneleth. He had attempted to commit a monstrous crime, the destruction of the Tree of Life. Subsequently, it was entirely up to Ellesime to decide what to do with the culprit. The punishment she inflicted was insulting (he was stripped of elvishness) and somewhat injurious (his lifespan was much reduced) but it entailed nothing - no provision whatsoever - that impaired his capacity to inflict further harm. Considering what she knew him to be capable of - the spiritual and/or the physical destruction of an entire community for purposes of self-aggrandizement - her failure to act, when such action was well within her power, to place any restraint upon Joneleth's capacity to inflict further harm gives her a generous allowance of responsibility for such harm as Irenicus did inflict. Ellesime was not a participant in such acts; she did, however, have the responsibility to act. She had an undoubted capacity to enforce whatever conditions she saw fit. She certainly had reasonable and prudent grounds for placing significant limitations on Irenicus' freedom. Yet she did nothing of the sort. Nothing, at all, whatsoever. Apparently, just made a vague, pious wish that he might rehabilitate himself and then forgot he existed. So, to the degree that one can expect any practicality at all from a romantic elven queen, ruling a magical realm deep within a Faery wood, Ellesime had a definite share of responsibility for everything Irenicus did because she failed to take any steps to prevent his doing it.

Btw, if you are unfamiliar with the moral and legal background on the recovering drunk in the USA, forget him. He was just an example and to explain his case would take even more space than this already over-long post occupies.

[Kish]

But Jonelth wasn't that much of a threat at the time of his exile.

Joneleth was an archmage powerful enough to nearly drain the Tree of Life at the time of his exile.

He didn't become powerful enough to return until after his exile (which could have been centuries, he did restore his imortallity)

...huh? Where did you get that idea?

and even then only after stealing the soul of a godchild (well, the > part in any case) and enlisting the help of both the drow and the rakasha.  Ellesime had no way of predicting that the time of troubles and the bhaalspawn crisis could happen, let alone it making Irenicus so powerful, so her mercy wasn't misguided.

She knew she was turning loose a maniacal archmage on the world. She may not have known he could try to become a god again, but she certainly should have known he could construct his laboratory and torture people.

[Hendryk]

Joneleth was an archmage powerful enough to nearly drain the Tree of Life at the time of his exile.

Elven ability to cast arcain magic comes from their elven ability to connect to the Weave directly. Theoretically, severing Irenicus from Elven spirit was also denying him all of his magical powers. In fact, I am pretty positive that he had to re-learn casting as a human, drawing power through Mystra. Ellesime have counted on the desire of every elf to be an elf above all to bring him back to the community in less pridful state of mind.

That's a fine and romantic justifcation and perfectly acceptable from the pov of the fantasy genre. Even within that context though, Joneleth's ambition was, demonstrably, to become an elven *god*. To put him in circumstances in which he was neither elf nor god and then to place all one's hopes on his subsequent ambitions focusing on recovery of the 'elven' half of the equation, rather than the 'god' part, was...sanguine?...of her to say no more. Indeed, the implication is that she valued giving Joneleth one slim final chance to redeem himself above her throne, her realm and her own life. Again, perfectly defensible from a romantic pov. Not al all practical, though, which is the vantage I personally prefer.

[Hendryk]

I don't see Ellesime having the ability to read into the future; the only part of a romantic notion that exists in her punishment was that she made the mistake of thinking that Jon would go the -other- way.  How could she honestly have known that he wouldn't, based on the man she knew? 

As Joneleth, he tried to destroy the Tree of Life in order to become a god. Isn't that a fairly good clue about what he was capable of?

Isn't that a "good-aligned" trait - To try and see the best in all things? ..even if it's optimistic to the point of being detrimental. 

Good intentions are important to Good alignment but aren't sufficient to insure Good results. For that, one also has to know what one is doing. Neville Chamberlain *intended* to appease Hitler and remove all causes for a European War. The result of his efforts was World War II. Moral: it is possible to be stupid and Good. It is rather important *not* to be stupid in order to achieve Good.

I should probably add that if Domi's assertion is correct than it becomes more than a romantic notion - it becomes a reasonable act to reduce Jon's abilities

True. However, his power is formidible at the start of SoA. Whether he simply retained it, against theoretical expectation, or spent some time in re-acquiring it, his metamorphosis can't have been an insuperable barrier or else, as you noted, there wouldn't be a game. Since he did achieve such power - without any corresponding notoriety as the Evil Archmage Irenicus - I infer that the process hadn't, in all likelihood, given him much difficulty. And if it hadn't, then Ellesime should have known that it would not and taken suitable precautions against such an eventuality. Manifestly, she did not.

To suggest that she knew what Jon was capable of and left him capable of doing it means that Ellesime is not the good elf Queen but the evil elf Queen - something I have a really hard time with.

Those alternatives do not exhaust the possibilities. She may also have been a good-hearted, well-intentioned bungler.

Intent is key in my definition of responsibility.

But not the only key, surely. Queens have, I should say, the responsibility to exercise common sense on facts known at the time when rendering important judgments.

[Arcalian]

None of the above.....see, for me she's just part of Irenicus' backstory. Neither love, nor hate. Part of the scenery, if you will.

[fallen_demon]

I think people are looking at it to much in modern standards. In ancient times exile was very common, and Irenicus finding a way to become a danger to them was much harder to predict then he and bhodi escaping would be. He's a result of how concided the elves were, which for me seems to fit. He violated the tree of life, the thing which made them 'immortal' and made them elven, so he was forced to walk the world without it (now that i think about it, i don't remember the elves saying they would drop dead, just that they would die, could mean eventually) made into a mockery of humans. We tend to rely on logic more and our emotions less than the elves and are generally less atractive, so he was left emotionless, cold, calculating and ugly.