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BiG World Setup (an attempt to update the program)

Started by Quiet, Sep 16 2013 10:11 AM

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#4181 subtledoctor

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 05:23 AM

lol @ "culprit for everything"

The mod makes it necessary to have a kit if you are a priest. This is actually true to the lore of the setting, unlike various mods (which deity has a child?) or the game itself (no multi class bards?).

Unfortunately, dual-classing breaks the system in several major, noticeable ways. The most important one is an engine bug that has already been brought to the attention of the devs... but we're not holding our breath for a fix. Our options are 1) let broken mechanics get in players' way, or 2) don't allow players to choose a kit/deity until they regain their original class, or 3) have players be kitted multiclass instead of broken dual-class. (Kitted multiclasses are fully supported by the mod in very cool ways.)

At the moment, our choice is 3). It is in beta and everything is subject to further changes/improvement, and players are on notice about that.

Meantime, I've provided a fairly simple way for players to play with the broken mechanic if they want to. So, uh, sue me. :P

Edited by subtledoctor, 10 August 2017 - 07:44 AM.

#4182 The Imp

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 08:05 AM

The mod makes it necessary to have a kit if you are a priest.
Why ? Is it because you subject the ingame rules to a situation where only kits can solve it ? Like not allowing healing spells to regular clerics, but they need to be a priest of some awful god you defined ? Sorry, but that's all your making, and definitely not in game rule.
And can't you make a kit that's not a kit, that allows access to the normal spell VIA SUPERKIT() after the dual classing ? And you should understand that MOST spells should still be access-able to to MOST clerics/priests. As if you make the kits to ALLOW access to additional spells, they should be a few... not in third digit amounts.

Edited by The Imp, 10 August 2017 - 08:06 AM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.

#4183 subtledoctor

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 08:59 AM

The issue isn't with spells and sphere access - that would be easy enough to code around.  The issue is a fairly deep engine bug with regard to proficiencies.  Usually if you have a kit, the proficiency choice screen allows you to choose any proficiencies available to your kit - based on the column in weapprof.2da. 

 

But in certain circumstances the game ignores your kit and uses the trueclass column.  In some circumstances it seemingly allows you only those proficiencies shared by both columns.  The behavior actually changes drastically the moment you get your original class abilities back, for no clear reason that I can understand.  And the behavior is inconsistent between engine versions (1.4 vs. 2.0+) in part I think due to the way the new UI system is coded.

 

Long story short, proficiency and usability is broken when you dual-class to cleric and choose a kit in your new class, until the moment you regain your old class abilities.  And there is nothing we can do to fix it or work around the bug.  If players understand that and want to work with the broken system - ready to be careful not to waste proficiencies on weapons they can't actually use, in a screen where it is not obvious - then I have provided a simple setting that allows them to do so. 

 

When Beamdog releases v2.4 we'll see if they listened to my bug report and fix it.  But as I said, I'm not holding my breath.


#4184 The Imp

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 10:55 AM

And there is nothing we can do to fix it or work around the bug.
You sure about that ? How about you assist the Dual classed character to gain the class back ... and then put their then gained XP back to the start zero. Yes, this way they get a lot from the dual class... but maybe they could loose stuff too...
Or just don't care... as this was in the original engine too, as a fighter who put points towards long sword had them yes, but still unable to use the thing as a cleric, but all was fine and dandy still. Or they could level up from 1 to the x level they got the powers back and had extra points to put into the already learned long sword proff (if they could still use them).
You can even make the system so they multied priests can get better proffs than a regular clerics, if you put them to have extra access into a set weapon after they regain the both classes.

Or one way to have a Gods assigned weapon is to put it as the kit ability, and not allow them to put points into it, as that kit, but gain them in level ups... so they will eventually get the "grand mastery" in the weapon or what ever, even if they specialized in completely different way in the original class... and if they stopped to be the cleric, they only have that level's benefit as it comes strait from the kit.
- ready to be careful not to waste proficiencies on weapons they can't actually use, in a screen where it is not obvious - then I have provided a simple setting that allows them to do so. 
And you can't put that as an install options because you lack the imagination ... OR ?
"Disable dual classing to Clerics", there, that's your mod components name. Next, you just have to edit the dualclas.2da's column 2 to be zeroes...

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.

#4185 subtledoctor

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 12:14 PM

I don't want to make it an actual component because it's too likely players will want to keep the option open, and then they will dual-class and put two points into war hammers and then go and find out they can't use Crom Faeyr. If a player is ready and willing to handle that without blaming me, they can go into the mod folder and change the settings file. I prefer it being *slightly* hidden, for more savvy users.

For the moment, anyway. Like I said the mod is in beta and still being actively developed. This is a temporary measure, and with time and player feedback we'll see how we ultimately want to handle it. One option is to simply have priests choose weapon proficiencies via a dialog after choosing their kit, rather than through the normal process. That would solve the problem, if also being a bit weird for the player.

Edited by subtledoctor, 10 August 2017 - 12:16 PM.

#4186 The Imp

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 01:39 PM

That would solve the problem, if also being a bit weird for the player.
Right, especially for the player that doesn't want to use your definition of the proficiency system. ... yes, just a reminder, there's one even that doesn't use selectable proffs at all.
Just put a "Heavily Recommended" to the component name... 'K, it's fine for the beta... BUT you will HAVE to come back to it in the actual release.

And in BWS, it can be set to be auto selected when you select the mod to be installed, and put a reference attached to the component that explains what it's all about. And why not to disable it, while still allowing that to be done manually in the component view. So nearly everyone that won't know why, will have that in their install in any case. And we can read their weidu.log...

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.

#4187 Blash2

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 08:03 AM

Greetings, reporting some issues:

 

1) I found an apparent dupilication in mod components, that might cause issues: "Move Items into SoA" -> "Some of your old items found in Irenicus Dungeon (ONLY FOR EET)" and "EET (Enhanced Edition Trilogy) Tweaks" - > "Import party items to SoA".

Shouldn't one be preferred to another?

 

2) Ascalon's Questpack was recently added in BWS. I remember it working fine in BGT but found a problem: In Beregost there are three NPCs named Udolf Raukner, Agnus the White and  Teliel Meadowsinger. The initial dialogue with them ends abruptly after their story about how they shared their loot and 80 gold pieces were left. There is no way to initiate dialogue afterwards, and the game starts to stutter terribly (you have to save, quit, and load to stop it).

 

3) There is a problem with Thalantyr, that I found only in the last two installs, I'm not sure it is related to Thalantyr Item Upgrade, I attached a screenshot.

 

Here is my WeiDU log:

 

Spoiler

Attached Files


Edited by Blash2, 13 August 2017 - 08:03 AM.

#4188 Roxanne

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:18 AM

Greetings, reporting some issues:

 

1) I found an apparent dupilication in mod components, that might cause issues: "Move Items into SoA" -> "Some of your old items found in Irenicus Dungeon (ONLY FOR EET)" and "EET (Enhanced Edition Trilogy) Tweaks" - > "Import party items to SoA".

Shouldn't one be preferred to another?

The mods are redundant but work a bit differently. Currently, BWS accepts the possible selection of both since they do not produce any conflict or issue. Both mods move BG1 items to a different location in Irenicus Dungeon. Depending on whether you install one or the other or both, the impact will just be where exactly you find the items. Unless you actually encountered a problem, there is no need to complicate installation by raising a conflict in BWS.

2) Ascalon's Questpack was recently added in BWS. I remember it working fine in BGT but found a problem: In Beregost there are three NPCs named Udolf Raukner, Agnus the White and  Teliel Meadowsinger. The initial dialogue with them ends abruptly after their story about how they shared their loot and 80 gold pieces were left. There is no way to initiate dialogue afterwards, and the game starts to stutter terribly (you have to save, quit, and load to stop it).

Do you have one of these in your party (Imoen, Jaheira or Montaron) when you talk to the adventurers?. The issue may lie in Jaheira or Imoen who have interjections from their banter files. However the mod installs after EET in BG2EE and might use the BG2 file instead of the BG1 banter file for them, which are different.

3) There is a problem with Thalantyr, that I found only in the last two installs, I'm not sure it is related to Thalantyr Item Upgrade, I attached a screenshot.

Not sure what BWS can do here? Is there a text or something to tell you what those items may be?

 

Summary

1) should not be an issue unless proven otherwise.

2) should be reported to the author

3) not sufficient information to locate the source of the problem - looks like a missing bam-file.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

#4189 Blash2

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:51 PM

1) I didn't verify any problem, since I'm not able to test it. If the installation of both components doesn't produce any unexpected behaviour (crashes, duplication of items placed in two different location), then I agree that it's fine as it is. I just asked because, according to the description, they *appear* to be incompatible since they operate on the same items.

 

2) I made a test: with Charname only, the dialogue goes on as expected. With Imoen, it stops as described. Maybe its install order has to be changed? Why is it installed after EET if it is a BGEE mod?

 

3) I posted about the problem here since a previous installation with that component didn't cause the described issue, and maybe the source of the problem lies in the interaction with another mod. Not strictly BWS related, but I thought here I would find the appropriate audience to talk about the problem ;) Anyway, later I'm gonna check if any text appears using the TAB key.


Edited by Blash2, 13 August 2017 - 09:52 PM.

#4190 Roxanne

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 10:23 PM

1) I didn't verify any problem, since I'm not able to test it. If the installation of both components doesn't produce any unexpected behaviour (crashes, duplication of items placed in two different location), then I agree that it's fine as it is. I just asked because, according to the description, they *appear* to be incompatible since they operate on the same items.

Technically there should be no problem. Depending on installation order and game progression, either one or the other mod's code will trigger first and move the items. The second mod will move just an empty container, i.e. will have no further effect.

2) I made a test: with Charname only, the dialogue goes on as expected. With Imoen, it stops as described. Maybe its install order has to be changed? Why is it installed after EET if it is a BGEE mod?

It is installed after EET as both the author/maintainer as well as EET compatibility list *claim* that the mod has native EET support. This may not be the case. I have reported the issue to the mod's maintainer but I better not quote the reply here. It may or may not be taken care of.

3) I posted about the problem here since a previous installation with that component didn't cause the described issue, and maybe the source of the problem lies in the interaction with another mod. Not strictly BWS related, but I thought here I would find the appropriate audience to talk about the problem ;) Anyway, later I'm gonna check if any text appears using the TAB key.

There is no problem with posting reports here, It may get a larger attention, especially if the root of the problem cannot be identified right away.

Waiting for more information.


Edited by Roxanne, 13 August 2017 - 10:26 PM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

#4191 jastey

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 10:43 PM

Thank you for the report concerning Ascalon's Questpack. The mod has currently no maintainer. White Agnus is on hiatus and I am not at updating it *yet*. It is on my list and I will update it once I am done with what I am updating now. But the current version is White Agnus'.


My Own: Ajantis BG1 Expansion Modification -- Sir Ajantis for BGII -- Ajantis Portrait Pack -- Another fine Hell -- Brage's Redemption -- BGQE at Gibberlings 3 / BGQE at Kerzenburgforum -- Brandock the Mage -- Endless BG1 -- Grey The Dog NPC -- Imoen 4 Ever -- Imoen Is Stone -- Jastey's SoD TweakPack -- Road to Discovery (SoD) -- Solaufein's Rescue - jastey's Solaufein NPC Mod -- The Boareskyr Bridge Scene (SoD)

Contributions: Adalon's Blood (Silberdrachenblutmod) -- Alternatives -- Ascalon's Questpack -- Ascalon's Breagar NPC -- Balduran's Seatower -- BG1 NPC Project -- BG1 Romantic Encounters -- Corthala Romantique -- Edwin Romance -- Fading Promises -- Gavin BG1 --Hidden Adventures -- Imoen Can Die -- Keldorn Romance (berelinde's) -- Lure of Sirine's Call -- NTotSC -- Romantic Encounters (BGII)

 

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#4192 Blash2

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 01:01 AM

Thanks to you, Roxanne, and to all who are still working on this :)


#4193 Blash2

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 05:06 AM

About the Thalantyr problem, here's a savegame. 

 

The TAB key gives no message. The "iconless" article can be bought, then an "iconless" item appears in your inventory. When you try to remove it, the game says you can't, so buying that "item" screws your inventory for good. 

Attached Files


#4194 Roxanne

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 06:04 AM

About the Thalantyr problem, here's a savegame. 

 

The TAB key gives no message. The "iconless" article can be bought, then an "iconless" item appears in your inventory. When you try to remove it, the game says you can't, so buying that "item" screws your inventory for good. 

 

To find out, you need to run change-log for the file highhedg.sto.


Edited by Roxanne, 15 August 2017 - 06:07 AM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

#4195 Blash2

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 06:33 AM

How do I do it exactly?

 

@jastey When you'll work on Ascalon's Questpack, I think the fix discussed here should be integrated:

http://www.shsforums...rogram/page-216


#4196 Roxanne

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 07:06 AM

How do I do it exactly?

 

@jastey When you'll work on Ascalon's Questpack, I think the fix discussed here should be integrated:

http://www.shsforums...rogram/page-216

Forget about change-log. I am afraid it will not help us. I am sorry, but I cannot find any clue what those (10) items are that cause the issue.

All I can say from other similar experiences I made, do not buy or pick up such items if you find them in the game. They either get stuck in your inventory or - if you can get rid of them - some even follow you around when you travel between areas.


Edited by Roxanne, 15 August 2017 - 07:39 AM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

#4197 Roxanne

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 07:51 AM

How do I do it exactly?

 

@jastey When you'll work on Ascalon's Questpack, I think the fix discussed here should be integrated:

http://www.shsforums...rogram/page-216

 

I have the following suspicion for cases 2 + 3 of your report.

They may both be related to some issues with your installation of AC_quest pack

 

1) I successfully tested the AC_Quest encounter in Beregost with Imoen in party and also confirmed that in my installation the Jaheira and Montaron interjections are in the correct BG1 banter files.

2) The AC_Quest also adds items to the Highhedg.sto for the werewolf quest in the house nearby. In my installation there are no broken items in Thalantyr's store.

 

I suggest to see if there will be other reports about these issues, otherwise this may be a local installation problem.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

#4198 jastey

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 09:38 AM

How do I do it exactly?

 

@jastey When you'll work on Ascalon's Questpack, I think the fix discussed here should be integrated:

http://www.shsforums...rogram/page-216

It's good you draw my attention to this again. I see now what the problem is (using a local copy of something where a link to EET resource should be). Thank you!


My Own: Ajantis BG1 Expansion Modification -- Sir Ajantis for BGII -- Ajantis Portrait Pack -- Another fine Hell -- Brage's Redemption -- BGQE at Gibberlings 3 / BGQE at Kerzenburgforum -- Brandock the Mage -- Endless BG1 -- Grey The Dog NPC -- Imoen 4 Ever -- Imoen Is Stone -- Jastey's SoD TweakPack -- Road to Discovery (SoD) -- Solaufein's Rescue - jastey's Solaufein NPC Mod -- The Boareskyr Bridge Scene (SoD)

Contributions: Adalon's Blood (Silberdrachenblutmod) -- Alternatives -- Ascalon's Questpack -- Ascalon's Breagar NPC -- Balduran's Seatower -- BG1 NPC Project -- BG1 Romantic Encounters -- Corthala Romantique -- Edwin Romance -- Fading Promises -- Gavin BG1 --Hidden Adventures -- Imoen Can Die -- Keldorn Romance (berelinde's) -- Lure of Sirine's Call -- NTotSC -- Romantic Encounters (BGII)

 

Avatar by Rabain

#4199 subtledoctor

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 07:35 AM

Roxanne, please undo your recent unadvised change and restore BWS to offer the Faiths & Powers beta for use with EET. The mod is 100% compatible with EET and a number of users have been playing with it for some time, without any problems. It is not your place to remove other mods from use with BWS.

BWS is open source, in some ways like a wiki; by messing with other mods you are acting like someone who maliciously changes without regard to the legitimacy or veracity of the content. This is one of the better communities on the web, lots of people focused on giving help and assistance to each other. Please don't bring that kind of malicious behavior into it.

Edited by subtledoctor, 16 August 2017 - 07:36 AM.

#4200 Roxanne

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:56 AM

Just to return to facts

 

BWS has this configuration section (not my invention but introduced since BWS started to include EET) to support one installation sequence for both BG2EE and EET. All BG1 mods are purged from BG2EE selections per default. In addition, some mods are purged by:

;EET mods not approved by K4thos, http://gibberlings3....showtopic=27741

This section contains mods that are compatible with BG2EE but not with EET, so that they appear in the selection screens for a BG2EE install but are hidden for EET users,

As shown, the relevant source for information it the G3 topic list for EET.

F+P is configured for all games according the the modders instruction and is shown for those game installs it can be used for.

 

Question is how to deal with exceptions. It is pretty easy to identify criteria for NPC, Quest, Portrait, Shop to decide whether they can be used in EET or not. It is a bit more difficult for a mod like F+P, especially as it tweaks NPCs (vanilla + mods) that may become continuous with EET.

 

I agree, in the current constellation, it all depends on one person's decision (K4thos), who manages the list. On the other hand, we create the situation where BWS users get a different EET install than those doing manual installs by the list if we use different criteria.

 

PS - all those personal insults are completely pointless since I support F+P since long, have tested mod compatibility and have tried to make suggestions and improvements. I have it added manually to all my EET installs.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

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