35 replies to this topic

[CamDawg]

Sorry, I meant there's really nothing we can do about it if someone hosts our mods without permission, other than whine. I had written something longer then realized I was just repeating Kulyok, so I cut it down and it lost context. I wasn't trying to attack you.

G3 being down is a colossal PITA, yes, and we're just as frustrated as anyone else. I've been trying to round up the out of date stuff for the mirror--I updated everything I had on my local HDD, but that's certainly not everything.

[CamDawg]

So that we don't have to re-hash a very old topic, this isn't the first time we've had this discussion.

[Test Person]

It's OK, - not a problem. - I have had no luck in locating the Happy Patch or Touchstone (Touch-the-Moon) NPC, but one of the forum staff members, Cal Jones, has offered to email a copy of Tyris Flare v6 to anyone who wants it: http://www.shsforums...__fromsearch__1 although I contacted them and have heard nothing from them so far.

I can see, looking the post link you provided, that BWP seems to have pissed off a good number of modders, who have also requested that their work be removed from the installer lists, yet their work remains an integral part of the recommended install downloads for BWP. Hmmm...

I still love the whole concept of BWP, though, but I can see that some serious reconciliation work needs to done to address the concerns of several of the modders, and a good point is also raised about the use of beta releases. Personally, this is of concern to me, too. - Normally alpha and beta releases would never be considered in a mainstream (in this case recommended) install, and with very good reason.

Edited by Test Person, 22 December 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[GeN1e]

To provide an example that the mod authors hating third-party mirrors is not just mere whining.

There are several cases in Russian BG modding community when some people made a BWP installation and then upload it on torrent sites. They claim it is for players' ease, as indeed attempting a megamod installation may seem daunting to newcomers, however it is very common for random players to download that, run into bugs, and come to "official" Russian modding forums looking for help. And I assure everyone, that is not a pleasant task to spend time on someone's problem only to find out they've no real idea what they're actually playing AND to often end up with no means to assist other than to tell them to build the game by BWP manual. A waste of time for everyone.

[CamDawg]

I can see, looking the post link you provided, that BWP seems to have pissed off a good number of modders, who have also requested that their work be removed from the installer lists, yet their work remains an integral part of the recommended install downloads for BWP. Hmmm...

Ha, no, the takeaway from that thread (especially if you start following links) is that some modders love drama more than modding.

For me, I don't like mirrors simply because they make it less likely to interact with the players--which leads to suggestions, bug reports, and other things that push forward a cycle of improvement. The only thing worse than hearing "your mod is bad and you should feel bad" is nothing.

[dabus]

Um, if you use the BWS (GUI-installer) and do not have problems with the batch (BiG World Install.bat from the installpack), you could just tell me -- telling Leonardo wouldn't help.

I started the BWS to prepare for the batch-installation and wanted to adjust installs without editing files next.
Since AutoIt3 is more or less the only script-language that I'm on fairly good with, the batch being less tidy than now and under heavy development a few years ago, I just tried to translated Leonardos work from Batch to AutoIt3.

Since Leonardo was more comfortable with batch, you got two possible installation methods.
(You can still use the BWS to start the batch in the end).

And I guess that he wasn't wrong since I took a timeout as well and I'm definitely not as busy working on the BWS as I was a few years ago.

Concerning the extraction of the NSIS-files and the mods messages: There were some reports that 7zip did not extract the files as the setup would do. Not only it was in some other directory with different names, but also missing files and such. So I moved from using 7zip to NSIS own extraction method. Since most of those mods would fire up the installation at once and I didn't want that, I put those into a sub-folder (which causes the installers to stop if you or the BWS does not close the cmd-windows before that happens). After every setup did it's work, those files are move them into the BG2-folder.

If 7zip does extract all files from every NSIS-setups as it should, I'd remove that step.

Edited by dabus, 22 December 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[Test Person]

@G1N1e: the torrent idea is actually quite smart, and was something I was thinking about until I realised just how fired up a number of the modders seem to be about anyone having their mods, never mind actually using the damn things (God forbid! ) ...so I quickly dropped that idea. To be honest, though, there would still be the problem of latest versions of files not being available, because everytime the files were updated someone would have to torrent them, and torrenting files is usually a ballache of nightmare proportions ...plus some torrent sites, eg: Pirate Bay, force malware infested crap (Frostwire when I last checked, a variant of Limewire) on those who would use their torrents. I can understand the point, too, that you made about new players clogging up the forum with questions that they would never have needed to ask had they played BG and only then encountered BWP after looking around for new, user contributed, content.

Edited by Test Person, 23 December 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[Test Person]

Um, if you use the BWS (GUI-installer) and do not have problems with the batch (BiG World Install.bat from the installpack), you could just tell me -- telling Leonardo wouldn't help.

OK, - thanks, - I guess Leonardo has retired from the modding scene, or this one at least - ?

I started the BWS to prepare for the batch-installation and wanted to adjust installs without editing files next.
Since AutoIt3 is more or less the only script-language that I'm on fairly good with, the batch being less tidy than now and under heavy development a few years ago, I just tried to translated Leonardos work from Batch to AutoIt3.

Since Leonardo was more comfortable with batch, you got two possible installation methods.
(You can still use the BWS to start the batch in the end).

That is quite useful to know because, not knowing that, it is difficult to tell whether the GUI is simply a logical development from using batch processes or whether it is some kind of splinter project.

And I guess that he wasn't wrong since I took a timeout as well and I'm definitely not as busy working on the BWS as I was a few years ago.

Concerning the extraction of the NSIS-files and the mods messages: There were some reports that 7zip did not extract the files as the setup would do. Not only it was in some other directory with different names, but also missing files and such. So I moved from using 7zip to NSIS own extraction method. Since most of those mods would fire up the installation at once and I didn't want that, I put those into a sub-folder (which causes the installers to stop if you or the BWS does not close the cmd-windows before that happens). After every setup did it's work, those files are move them into the BG2-folder.

If 7zip does extract all files from every NSIS-setups as it should, I'd remove that step.

Thank-you for the clarification of how the extraction process works. - It is definitely the .exe files which are causing problems; although I did have one .zip file, Assassinations_v8.zip, which caused problems, too. For some reason I now have an .exe, not .zip, of that mod and need to take a closer look at it and what is going on with it on the installer side of things.

Most people say they don't have any problem with things and, yes, I agree that I had no problem until, in my installed game, it was a case of "where is such and such?", "why is that NPC still an enchanter?", "why can I not sell this item?" ...and then I started to realise, on taking a much closer look at the install process, that the installer was a doing a wonderful job or simply carrying on and all but completely ignoring a whole load of instances where .exe files had failed to install, or where dependency checks had failed.

So in my next install I will be manually extracting everything, including the .exe files. I am interested to know, though, how you decide on what to do first in the install process. Without taking a closer look at the moment I would hazard a guess that your scripts say: run x before running y and install abc in preference to jkl, assuming selection of abc; otherwise jklm to cover depency of j ...and so on - ? - I have some thoughts on the scripts, and the file index, but need to check some details first.

Edited by Test Person, 23 December 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[Leonardo Watson]

An essential prerequisite that the BWP finds wide acceptance not only among the players, but also among the modders (either because they support the BWP active or just tolerate it), is that it respects the wishes of the modders.

In theory, I think it would be easier for players if the communities would cooperate and the modders would host all the mods on a jointly used server. I know this practice from other fan communities outside of BG.

This was discussed extensively several years ago. Although we engage all in the same hobby, many modders still prefer their own servers. I understand, however, that they do not want anyone else than themselves mirrors their mods.

Then Dabus created his BWS, which can download the mods from the different servers. So it does really not matter whether the mods are scattered or are centrally hosted. A great relief it would be however if all the mods were packed in 7z or zip, and not as an exe or worse than that as NSIS. Unfortunately, the modders in question were previously not even willing to forgo on this for an automated installation completely user-hostile file format.

It is a waste of time to try to convince others against their will. There are other things that are more useful. Surely we do not need another guide, and other fixpacks. The would confuse the players more than help them. Your experience and your fixes are always welcome - as part of the BWP, not alone and certainly not against the will of all involved. Also I do not allow anyone to use my copyright protectet material. If you have new knowledge, I would like to add it to my guide. Please post your fixes and patches at the Fixes for the BiG fixpack thread. I will include them shortly into the BWP Fixpack.

[Test Person]

Fair comment, - thank-you, - I would be happy to post any fixes, patches, or notes on the BiG fixpack thread. - A quick thought, though: would it be better, possibly, if, on the file link list, the links for those mods that were from modders who were reluctant about having their content used in BWP or BWS could be to the modders download locations, or sites, and not a direct link to the mods themselves, or a direct link to the mod from a site other than that of the mod author? - This would surely satisfy those modders, as their work would still be seen and known about, but access to the files would be 100% under their control (barring Dot 5 hosting ).

Edited by Test Person, 23 December 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[dabus]

OK, - thanks, - I guess Leonardo has retired from the modding scene, or this one at least - ?

He's doing updates on the BWP-packs, and he already replied.

That is quite useful to know because, not knowing that, it is difficult to tell whether the GUI is simply a logical development from using batch processes or whether it is some kind of splinter project.

It's a little bastard. It uses the same basis when it comes to the installation order, languages and so on. Since it's possible to use components, there's additional stuff, but lets just say that I try to follow Leonardos guide (I have no intention of reinventing the wheel or get to know mods and orders to such a degree).

Thank-you for the clarification of how the extraction process works. - It is definitely the .exe files which are causing problems; although I did have one .zip file, Assassinations_v8.zip, which caused problems, too. For some reason I now have an .exe, not .zip, of that mod and need to take a closer look at it and what is going on with it on the installer side of things.

The zip contains the NSIS-installer which has an exe-suffix.

Most people say they don't have any problem with things and, yes, I agree that I had no problem until, in my installed game, it was a case of "where is such and such?", "why is that NPC still an enchanter?", "why can I not sell this item?" ...and then I started to realise, on taking a much closer look at the install process, that the installer was a doing a wonderful job or simply carrying on and all but completely ignoring a whole load of instances where .exe files had failed to install, or where dependency checks had failed.

Uh, if the mods would have missed some files, it would be more likely that those would not have been installed at all.
At least the weidu-installer would roll back if an error was detected.
If you used the GUI to install, you'd get a report about what wasn't installed in the end. I think the batch also provides such a list.
You could also consult the WeiDU.log and compare for yourself. And you can look at the Setup-XXX.debug-files to look for errors if you like to.
Also some things are not necessarily installation errors.

So in my next install I will be manually extracting everything, including the .exe files. I am interested to know, though, how you decide on what to do first in the install process. Without taking a closer look at the moment I would hazard a guess that your scripts say: run x before running y and install abc in preference to jkl, assuming selection of abc; otherwise jklm to cover depency of j ...and so on - ? - I have some thoughts on the scripts, and the file index, but need to check some details first.

The selection of mods/components is done prior to the installation. If you use the batch, it's done during runtime.
Using the GUI, dependencies are checked to see if something might fail. That's done repeatedly after failed installations and you get an info if you selected to get one. Also note that there's no log when NSIS is executed - but I assume you'd get a message from itself if it has failed.
To sum it up, I somehow doubt that your issues are related to the NSIS-installers, but have a try if you want to.

[Kyjan]

Would anyone happen to have these mods:

Romantic Encounter (RE_v6.exe)
Level 1 NPCs (level1npcs-v1.9.exe)

They are the last ones I miss for my installation, RE has broken link on g3 mirror, Level1npcs is old version.

Thank you very much.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Would anyone happen to have these mods:

Just for you---: archive deleted.

So that we don't have to re-hash a very old topic, this isn't the first time we've had this discussion.

Well, the situation as it now is, the mirrors the BWS uses are mirrors of mirrors, the official mirrors in fact, so when ever the official mirror does down, the BWS goes down... it might be a good idea to have a backup for that. Yep, the BWS can be programmed to use the official mirror when ever it's available ... this also would give the sites that are down a little less need to hurry up to relauch their downed systems properly. As of right now, you are making us all breath down theacefers neck ... and I though you were her friend.

For me, I don't like mirrors simply because they make it less likely to interact with the players--which leads to suggestions, bug reports, and other things that push forward a cycle of improvement. The only thing worse than hearing "your mod is bad and you should feel bad" is nothing.

Well, the fact is, "the game is bigger thing than just your site", or ours, and if you decide ignore that fact, it's likely you get to ignore a larger proportion of the whole picture. The bug reports... well, they have a lot of variability in them, and some can be directed towards a lot of things... it's best usually to try not to make people look like idiots when there's 100 possibilities of which component the culprit and make them report every problem they have in the 100 sites just to keep everyone updated... so the ideal solution usually should run by the Mega Mod Help forum first, then when it gets associated fix, that fix is included to the BWP Fixpack as fast as possible, and then that should result in the fact that the problem is reported to the mods author in the associated mods own forum. From where the mod itself gets update in what ever far future it gets one.
If you know how the BWP's Fixpack works, you know the fix can't harm the future releases of the mod.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 26 December 2012 - 05:34 AM.

[Test Person]

@dabus: thanks for the comments, - sorry I was not able to reply sooner, - yes, Leonardo has been in touch and I have updated him on some things.

 

I am putting a hold on a mirror or file index for the moment whilst I get a better idea on the status of the various mods, as a good number are currently missing and unavailable. - The update on this, as per Leonardo's request, will be posted on the BiG World Fixpack thread: http://www.shsforums...-fixpack-patch/ (I think that that is the correct one, but please feel free to correct me if it is not).

 

Regarding the log files, it seems that not all steps of the installation process are reported or, more accurately, not all installation failures are detected and reported as such. - I need to do more checking on this but, yes, .exe and NSIS failures are causing later dependency checks to fail and some content that is required by some components is not being picked up as such prior to install, so I am trying to trace these requirements, so I can mark and test them in my own install.

 

@Jarno Mikkola: thanks for your download link, but the file had a gremlin ...or should that be an imp? - Romantic Encounters v6.0 is currently available through the G3 emergency mirror: http://www.camagna.n...ror/index.html, whilst Level 1 NPCs v1.9 (level1npcs-v1.9.exe) can be obtained by downloading Big World Downloads.7z from: http://www.sendspace.com/file/qxm0du (click the link where it says Click here to start download from sendspace).  The above archive also contains:

 

garrick_flirt-a0917.exe

item_rev.rar (the changelog would seem to indicate that this is v3b1.5)

tyrisflare-v6.exe

 

Barring any objections from anyone, I am happy to provide the above files should they become unavailable again. - PM me if necessary.

Edited by Test Person, 30 December 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Mad Mate]

 The update on this, as per Leonardo's request, will be posted on the BiG World Fixpack thread: http://www.shsforums...-fixpack-patch/ (I think that that is the correct one, but please feel free to correct me if it is not).

 

This is correct one for posting fixes for BWP:

http://www.shsforums...he-big-fixpack/

[Test Person]

 The update on this, as per Leonardo's request, will be posted on the BiG World Fixpack thread: http://www.shsforums...-fixpack-patch/ (I think that that is the correct one, but please feel free to correct me if it is not).

 
This is correct one for posting fixes for BWP:
http://www.shsforums...he-big-fixpack/

Thanks, - finding things in this forum is not easy.

Edited by Test Person, 05 January 2013 - 10:52 AM.