102 replies to this topic

[Rhaella]

How would you suggest handling Anomen if you've got an NPC who really does hate him? (I've gone one who pretty much hates everyone, so this is relevant to my interests as well, haha.)

[Stnemele]

== S#MARC ~Doesn't mean I'm not right... kid.~

I'm not really in a position to look it up at the moment, but is "kid" a term used in the FR setting? And "Suck ups"? The talk kind of reads like Clint Eastwood speaking to Lancelot which is a little awkward. But I could be completely wrong.

Also, a word of advice (and as always feel free to smile, nod, and ignore) - you may want to take it easy on the Anomen bashing. Too many mods do it already - yeah he's a bit of a prick but he's still a potential romance option for the PC (if I was just sitting there seeing some douche bag insult my significant other or love interest, I'd probably intervene...).

Yeah, it started at much less Anomen-bashing, but then it sort of... degenerated. I'm still getting a feel for Marcos and I'm sure that the Anomen banters are NOT final drafts by any means just yet. And you're right: "kid" might be a little too modern (and very ala Clint, now that you mention it). I still have the original Anomen banters, but those are too "obvious". I've been staring at them and trying to sort out what Marcos actually thinks of Anomen, because I do want them to get along (by the time Ani's CN, he and Marcos are buddies).

Point being, they are about to be re-tweaked majorly. Marcos respects knights more so than he dislikes them. Anomen just rubs it in a little too much sometimes for Marcos's liking. I think I can compensate....

== S#MARC ~You're doing it again.~
== BANOMEN ~Doing what, Corvus?~
== S#MARC ~What we talked about. With the bragging. You told that story to me two days ago.~
==BANOMEN ~Oh, yes. Forgive me. Some people do not tire of hearing tales of valor.~
== S#MARC ~Having been on the other side of Righteousness's sword, I like the gritty realism better.~
== BANOMEN ~I see... Well, then, if you were telling it, how would you do it?~
== S#MARC ~You're asking me to do that? You have got to be kidding me...~
== BANOMEN ~No, I am not. I do not wish to bore everyone. These are important tales that men can learn from!~
== S#MARC ~....Fine.~
= ~"Three years ago, there was a giant. It was bad. Me and some friends went and killed it. The end."~
== BANOMEN ~That's it?~
== S#MARC ~Yes.~
== BANOMEN ~Honestly, man! Where was the tension? The thrill? The heart-pounding worry? You can do much better than that.~
== S#MARC ~I take it that if you fail your test you're going to become a bard.~
== BANOMEN ~Alas, I do not have a gift for such things.~
== S#MARC ~Considering the way I've seen women stare at you, I don't think *those* talents would, exactly, matter. (smirk)~
EXIT

[Stnemele]

Updated Cernd:

//Cernd Banters
CHAIN
IF ~InParty("S#MARC")
InParty("Cernd")
!StateCheck("S#MARC",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)
!StateCheck("Cernd",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)
Global("S#CerndBanter","GLOBAL",0)~
THEN S#MarcB CerndBanter1
~...Lycanthrope?~
DO ~SetGlobal("S#CerndBanter","GLOBAL",1)~
== BCERND ~Yes?~
== S#MARC ~I hadn't ever realized it meant "werewolf". I thought it was something to do with moss.~
== BCERND ~That is lichen. They are very different things.~
== S#MARC ~Obviously. Unless your lichen-powers can make you turn into moss at any given moment.~
== BCERND ~Some druids would not think that a bad thing, my friend. To be one with nature is a druid's greatest goal.~
== S#MARC ~....I like the wolf-thing better.~
EXIT

CHAIN
IF ~InParty("S#MARC")
InParty("Cernd")
!StateCheck("S#MARC",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)
!StateCheck("Cernd",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)
Global("S#CerndBanter","GLOBAL",1)~
THEN S#MarcB CerndBanter2
== BCERND ~You look confused, my friend.~
DO ~SetGlobal("S#CerndBanter","GLOBAL",2)~
== S#MARC ~....I'm not.~
== BCERND ~You have been watching me warily for some time. Do I disturb you?~
== S#MARC ~No.~
== BCERND ~Come, then, speak your mind. An unshared thought is like a flower that blooms

with no one to see its beauty.~
== S#MARC ~(mutters) I'd rather not.~
== BCERND ~(raises eyebrow)~
== S#MARC ~(sigh) ....~
= ~(quietly) What is it like to have a tail?~
== BCERND ~(laughs)~
== S#MARC ~Forget I said anything.~
= ~No, really, forget it. Before everyone starts staring. (flushes) I--I need to go hit something.~
EXIT

CHAIN
IF ~InParty("S#MARC")
InParty("Cernd")
!StateCheck("S#MARC",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)
!StateCheck("Cernd",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)
Global("S#CerndBanter","GLOBAl",2~
THEN S#MarcB CerndBanter3
== BCERND ~...Like any shapeshifting, the transformation is painful, and the side that remains is purely animalistic.~
DO ~SetGlobal("S#CerndBanter","GLOBAL",3)~
== S#MARC ~And why, exactly, is that a bad thing?~
== BCERND ~Marcos, I am not going to turn you into a lycanthrope.~
== S#MARC ~Have you seen yourself when you are one? That much power...~
== BCERND ~You are already a wolf, my friend, and if you do not howl at the moon, you will never know your place.~
== S#MARC ~What in the hells is *that* supposed to mean?~
== BCERND ~Think on it. I think you will understand, in time.~
== S#MARC ~....So are you going to turn me or not?~
== BCERND ~(sigh) No, I am not.~
== S#MARC ~Damn.~
EXIT

[theacefes]

How would you suggest handling Anomen if you've got an NPC who really does hate him? (I've gone one who pretty much hates everyone, so this is relevant to my interests as well, haha.)

I couldn't tell you step by step as I'm not an expert on writing NPCs but I would start by not making the NPC you (generally speaking) or your NPC hate sound like a tool or an idiot. Obviously, if they are traveling with CHARNAME and are on this dangerous adventure, they probably know to some degree what they are doing, or at the very least they aren't an idiot. Say you hated the Auren Aseph mod because she was poorly written and had too much banter with Nalia, whom you also hate. Or your NPC didn't like her because she's getting in the way of his booty action with Nalia. Would you do crossmod like this?

MYNPC ~Auren, you suck. You die in like, every battle.~
K#AURENB ~Derpy derp! Carrot!~
MYNPC ~Witty remark that will render you speechless!~
K#AURENB ~I love wearing flannel shirts, basketball shorts, and shopping at Home Depot!~
MYNPC ~Nalia is mine, fool! Stand there and be shattered by my intimidating form and awesome rhetoric that will blow your mind.~
K#AURENB ~Oh, you're totally right. Sorry about that. If I meet some other hot chick that vaguely resembles Drew Barrymore on drugs, I'll check with you first before I put the moves on her.~

Silliness aside, if you have an NPC that doesn't get along with another NPC, that's understandable. But if they hate that NPC with a passion, it seems completely unrealistic that:
1) They would initiate banters in which they destroy the other NPC and win EVERYTIME.
2) That CHARNAME, who might be a good friend of the other NPC, can't say a damn thing about it.

[theacefes]

== S#MARC ~Doesn't mean I'm not right... kid.~

I'm not really in a position to look it up at the moment, but is "kid" a term used in the FR setting? And "Suck ups"? The talk kind of reads like Clint Eastwood speaking to Lancelot which is a little awkward. But I could be completely wrong.

Also, a word of advice (and as always feel free to smile, nod, and ignore) - you may want to take it easy on the Anomen bashing. Too many mods do it already - yeah he's a bit of a prick but he's still a potential romance option for the PC (if I was just sitting there seeing some douche bag insult my significant other or love interest, I'd probably intervene...).

Yeah, it started at much less Anomen-bashing, but then it sort of... degenerated. I'm still getting a feel for Marcos and I'm sure that the Anomen banters are NOT final drafts by any means just yet. And you're right: "kid" might be a little too modern (and very ala Clint, now that you mention it). I still have the original Anomen banters, but those are too "obvious". I've been staring at them and trying to sort out what Marcos actually thinks of Anomen, because I do want them to get along (by the time Ani's CN, he and Marcos are buddies).

Point being, they are about to be re-tweaked majorly. Marcos respects knights more so than he dislikes them. Anomen just rubs it in a little too much sometimes for Marcos's liking. I think I can compensate....

== S#MARC ~You're doing it again.~
== BANOMEN ~Doing what, Corvus?~
== S#MARC ~What we talked about. With the bragging. You told that story to me two days ago.~
==BANOMEN ~Oh, yes. Forgive me. Some people do not tire of hearing tales of valor.~
== S#MARC ~Having been on the other side of Righteousness's sword, I like the gritty realism better.~
== BANOMEN ~I see... Well, then, if you were telling it, how would you do it?~
== S#MARC ~You're asking me to do that? You have got to be kidding me...~
== BANOMEN ~No, I am not. I do not wish to bore everyone. These are important tales that men can learn from!~
== S#MARC ~....Fine.~
= ~"Three years ago, there was a giant. It was bad. Me and some friends went and killed it. The end."~
== BANOMEN ~That's it?~
== S#MARC ~Yes.~
== BANOMEN ~Honestly, man! Where was the tension? The thrill? The heart-pounding worry? You can do much better than that.~
== S#MARC ~I take it that if you fail your test you're going to become a bard.~
== BANOMEN ~Alas, I do not have a gift for such things.~
== S#MARC ~Considering the way I've seen women stare at you, I don't think *those* talents would, exactly, matter. (smirk)~
EXIT

Nothing wrong with two NPCs not getting along in the party but all I'm saying is that if you are going to create tension between the two, do it realistically without turning your NPC in a Stu.

[Almateria]

Anomen is like the best character in BG2, why does everybody hate him

Obviously. Unless your lichen-powers can make you turn into moss at any given moment.

Also dibs on the mod kit!

e:

== BANOMEN ~I-- Yes, perhaps. I will acquiesce the defeat if you permit me to borrow said insult at some point in the future.~
== S#MARC ~To direct at me?~
== BANOMEN ~Quite possibly, sirrah.~
== S#MARC ~Only if it's a battle of wits.~
== BANOMEN ~Done.~

Nobody talks like that!

Edited by Almateria, 08 February 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Rhaella]

How would you suggest handling Anomen if you've got an NPC who really does hate him? (I've gone one who pretty much hates everyone, so this is relevant to my interests as well, haha.)

I couldn't tell you step by step as I'm not an expert on writing NPCs but I would start by not making the NPC you (generally speaking) or your NPC hate sound like a tool or an idiot. Obviously, if they are traveling with CHARNAME and are on this dangerous adventure, they probably know to some degree what they are doing, or at the very least they aren't an idiot.

Hmm. I wasn't sure if this was a problem that was doubly relevant to Anomen. It feels like after Kelsey, any NPC who doesn't like him is automatically going to get into trouble, which is a bit frustrating. But sometimes I'm not sure where to draw the line in the other direction, i.e., is Bioware X fighting back so much more than s/he would have in vanilla BG that there are still characterization issues?

Anomen is like the best character in BG2, why does everybody hate him

I quite like him! Though when it comes to NPCs, I think very, very few would really have the compassion and patience necessary to really like him despite his attitude. I like him as a character; I would loathe him as a person.

[theacefes]

Hmm. I wasn't sure if this was a problem that was doubly relevant to Anomen. It feels like after Kelsey, any NPC who doesn't like him is automatically going to get into trouble, which is a bit frustrating. But sometimes I'm not sure where to draw the line in the other direction, i.e., is Bioware X fighting back so much more than s/he would have in vanilla BG that there are still characterization issues?

I'm not sure if you missed my point or maybe we're agreeing and I don't see it. The issue isn't Anomen specifically or NPCs not liking Bioware NPCs. The issue is when mod NPCs who have an obvious dislike for another NPC and "win" every freaking argument or battle of wits they have with said NPC. Fans get annoyed because, really - no one talks like that. If your mod NPC is perfect, no one will want to play them. Part of the story of Baldur's Gate is growing up, or just growing in general. CHARNAME isn't the only one growing - his/her friends need to grow, too. If your mod NPC is all knowing at the beginning of the game, I'd say he/she is a pretty crappily written character, at least for this game.

As for "is Bioware X going to fight back Y amount towards Z?" I'd say that requires a bit of common sense and staying within the [very] easy one dimensional character personalities that Bioware has provided us with.

EDIT: Clarification.

Edited by theacefes, 08 February 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[Rhaella]

Nah, not disagreeing. Not at all. You'd specifically mentioned Anomen bashing, though, and while character bashing in general is bad, I agree, sometimes it just seems that for Anomen in particular, you need to use a velvet glove. Which can get dangerous too. As for the rest of it, I probably shouldn't hijack Stnemele's thread for issues that probably aren't going to come up for her.

[theacefes]

Relating back to this thread, I mentioned Anomen bashing because in her original Anomen banters, she was having her character do a bit too much obvious bashing. You don't need to use a velvet glove with Anomen, but since he's the only vanilla romance option for females, it seems easy for people writing male characters to tear him apart, perhaps in an effort to make their own character more appealing to a female PC?

Character bashing isn't bad - just don't be super obvious and use it in moderation (and with common sense).

I felt it was relevant to this thread, but if not, anyone that would like to continue this conversation with me can do so on PM or IM.

Edited by theacefes, 08 February 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[Stnemele]

Don't worry about it, people. I don't mind thread-hijacking; I do it all the time. I'm writing a lengthy reply to help me focus my banters some.

And you're right: Anomen does get attacked. Unfortunately, Marcos is pretty easy to be hot/cold, but his patience and experience would help him "deal" with any Anomen issues. Besides, Marcos is, in fact, jealous of knights; Marcos isn't good enough to become one (and it isn't for lack of wanting it, either, as his life has gone on).

[Stnemele]

Anomen is like the best character in BG2, why does everybody hate him

I do like Anomen, but Marcos is not me by any means. As a matter of fact, Marcos is about as opposite of me as possible. At this point, EVERYTHING posted is still a working draft. It usually takes me 5+ drafts before I am satisfied enough with something to declare it "mostly done".

For Marcos and Anomen, they are on draft 3 or 4, but I am still not satisfied. This is partially because I'm trying to voice Marcos and partially because he keeps switching from cold to snide to apathetic and back again before I know what's happening. I know what he's *supposed* to be, but as of right now I'm not doing my job as a writer quite right.

Nobody talks like that!

Yep. I overdid it. Thanks for pointing it out

So, I think it's about time I focus some.

How Marcos interacts with others:
In General: He doesn't. He glares, stares, and waits until he has to say something. Though not silent, he's more likely to snort at stupidity than anything else. He's borderline arrogant (if not arrogant proper), with just enough humility to know when he can't win a fight. He's blunt with everyone and snide when he's feeling smart enough to talk down to someone.

Aerie: To him, she is a contradiction. Her demeanor is hesitant, but she's a good at what she does. Part of him wants to snap at her for her mistakes, but the other knows that such cruelty is undeserved and unwise. She falls into the "innocent" category in his head, so his cruelty or snideness is based on his desire to protect her.

Anomen: Though about the same age, Marcos sees Anomen as inexperienced and "compensating for something". However, Marcos has this little habit of trying to "nurture" people that he thinks are weak in some way. Part of him is jealous of Anomen and part respects the man for being attempting to overcome his faults and obviously serve a greater cause. Marcos is too patient and experienced with arrogant people (having been one himself) to taken Anomen's puffery seriously, though it will take every fiber of Marcos's being not to attempt to deflate Anomen or snap at him or anything that is undeserved. So, banters will be tense, at first, relaxing more, especially as Anomen becomes LN/CN.


Cernd: Having never really cared about nature or druids, Marcos is most interested in Cernd's lycanthropy. Marcos doesn't generally indulge in fantasies, but he can't shake the idea of turning into a wolf or something awesomely powerful like that. Some of Cernd's druidic wisdom might trickle through as well, but Marcos may or may not listen, depending on if he understands it or not.

Edwin: Pure unadulterated dislike. The Red Wizards are synonymous with trouble. Marcos would be both untrusting, snide, and potentially cruel to Edwin, untimidated by the wizard's powers. Their interaction is essentially to serve as Marcos's "I'm watching you" warning, though Edwin might prod a bit to see what else is there and if it can be used.

Haer'Dalis: Marcos has this thing about bards: he doesn't like them much, just because he doesn't like music, floweriness, poetry, or anything particularly artistic. Since Haer'Dalis tends to be attempting to escape boredom, Marcos's mischievous side is what surfaces.

Imoen: Marcos is, at first, concerned about her well-being, but she quickly becomes something of a little sister to him (as she tends to be with most people). He is certainly less snippy with her because of what happened to her, if not actually *nice* to her. Then, of course, she gets back at him by being her usual pranking self... and he reacts in like.

Jaheira: He knows a seasoned adventurer when he sees one. He also sees that she wants no pity. However, he is used to being in control or being the person who gives the main bits of advice, so that causes some tension between them. However, he does understand that she "outranks" him in years of service, so, depending on the subject, he might let her win the arugment... if there is one.

Jan: Marcos has crossed paths with Jan in the past, specifically attempting to confiscate a meddlesome turnip launcher. Marcos is too stoic to admit that he finds Jan amusing, though slightly insane, but eventually might crack and snicker at the tedious stories.

Keldorn: Respect out the wazoo. Keldorn has not only survived more years then most as a paladin, but he's also one of the few knights that Marcos has crossed paths with and liked. Though they certainly don't agree about methods, they have come to an agreement that Keldorn is the wiser one, Marcos can be hot-headed (despite how level he might sound), and that Marcos is not knight/paladin material.

Korgan: Uncertain of what to do with him, though there's certainly not as much tension with him than with the other LG characters. With enough beer, though, anything is funny and innuendo-filled.

Mazzy: Marcos likes people who are motivated to rise above their stations, but he isn't used to interacting with halflings who aren't attempting to con him. So, he's partially wary of Mazzy and partially trying to "help" her when she, in fact, doesn't need it.

Minsc: Good fighters are good fighters, but Marcos isn't inclined to interact with one that's obviously insane, in his mind. He could deal with it if there wasn't Boo, but the hamster is just too much and Marcos has a thing about rodents...

Nalia: They don't agree on how to best help the less fortunate. He criticizes her methods, just as she does his, though he is loathe to admit that she may be right... but he's too stubborn to try and change or apologize.

Valygar: Marcos has never been fan of the Cowled Wizards or rogue mages (since the latter tend to cause trouble), so they start on the same page. Both are also rather isolationist, but Marcos finds himself realizing that he likes interacting with people more and questions Valygar's decision to withdraw from society.

Viconia: Intense dislike, though it's less because she's a drow and more because she's the opposite of a wilting, innocent maiden that flaunts everything in his face. He understands that it's drow culture, but he despises being treated like an incompetent. So, tension galore.

Yoshimo: Marcos is generally suspicious by nature, but Yoshimo is too skilled a trickster for Marcos to see anywhere near through the ruse. Yoshimo drags Marcos in by offering to share sake and a game of cards, getting on the guard's good side before things go to hell.

Anyone I'm forgetting? Does this help? Sound realistic? Any other suggestions/tweaks/etc?

Thanks for all the feedback so far!

[Rhaella]

All looks good... though I think you said there that Korgan was LG.

[Stnemele]

All looks good... though I think you said there that Korgan was LG.

Oh, sorry, I said "other LG" and "other" was modifying "characters" not "LG"... I know Korgan's evil, but there's less tension with him than with LG characters.... that's what I was trying to say. Damn antecedents....

[Rhaella]

Ahh, gotcha. That would have been the most hilarious character misinterpretation ever, though.

[Stnemele]

Oh, hell yeah.

"So, Korgan, how is it that you get all those women and not offend your god?"
"What are ye taklin' about, boyo? Me axe has felled more men 'n I care to count, all in the name of righteousness!"
"And a good lay."
"Women can't resist two things: dwarves and paladins. Ye're gettin' the whole package, here."

[TDouglas]

Yikes!!! Scary thought is that would almost make an interesting mod

[Rhaella]

NPC Mod Idea: ALIGNMENT SHIFTS FOR EVERYONE

[theacefes]

Haha! That's almost as good as "Change every mod download link to secretly be the Banana NPC Mod."

[Rhaella]

Make sure you keep the old readme's and tweak the tp2's so that NOBODY who doesn't read the files REALIZES UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE