172 replies to this topic

[aVENGER]

Not to weigh in on any particular side here, but how optional are the portals, really? The elementals loiter about the portal right from the start and at least the air portal is located pretty much right in your path.

Off hand, It might be possible to accidentally trigger the elmentals by walking too close to the portals. However, it should be noted that if the player retreats, only the three initially spawned elementals will follow him. After the Greater Elemental is dead, a new batch will spawn at the portal's base but they won't automatically engage the party unless they are nearby. Incidentally, using that strategy can ensure that the party always fights only three elementals at a time.

@aVENGER, it looks like you have forgotten(?) the fire elementals. No fire elementals are added by the inlined script in c190.tpa and dwfire.bcs is not patched.

That's because Fire Elementals aren't done yet.

[GeN1e]

I have no objections against having to fight three elementals at once, but as Andrea C has said, it will yield far too much XP. Vanilla portals were already a good source of XP - 190k in total, - and you want to make it 690k? Besides, repeated ten spawns have always seemed boring to me.

In other words, I would suggest at least to cut the spawn counter to half.

Also, SCS2's Improved minor encounters component upgrades elementals brought in by Vithal. Although I guess you know it already.

PS
I have thought of a better idea - randomize each wave a bit. One may consist of 1 Greater and 2 Normals, another - 2 Normals and 6 Lessers, the third - 2 Greaters, 2 Lessers, etc. Maybe add a chance for an Elder to spawn as well.

New wave appears when ~2/3 of a single spawn strength is slain. Simply increment the counter with each elemental's death (say, XP/1000 - 2 for Lesser, 6 for Normal, etc.), and when it reaches the threshold - subtract and spawn the next wave.

It may "deviate from original Bioware's design", but will certainly make portals non-boring.

Edited by GeN1e, 05 March 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[aVENGER]

I have no objections against having to fight three elementals at once, but as Andrea C has said, it will yield far too much XP. Vanilla portals were already a good source of XP - 190k in total, - and you want to make it 690k? Besides, repeated ten spawns have always seemed boring to me.

That's a good point and it's something that can be adjusted quite easily. Consider it done.

Also, SCS2's Improved minor encounters component upgrades elementals brought in by Vithal.

Thanks, I'll take that into account when I get to making SCSII-specific compatibility adjustments.

I have thought of a better idea - randomize each wave a bit. One may consist of 1 Greater and 2 Normals, another - 2 Normals and 6 Lessers, the third - 2 Greaters, 2 Lessers, etc. Maybe add a chance for an Elder to spawn as well.

This is a nice suggestion and I think it can actually be done by using different RESPONSE #xxx percentages while still retaining Bioware's original spawn implementation. I'll give it a try and let you know how it works out.

Simply increment the counter with each elemental's death (say, XP/1000 - 2 for Lesser, 6 for Normal, etc.), and when it reaches the threshold - subtract and spawn the next wave.

As noted before, deviating from Bioware's implementation involves a non-trivial amount of work and would unnecessarily complicate the spawn procedure possibly introducing the potential for bugs. On top of that, I'm still unconvinced that such an approach would make a significant difference gameplay-wise, especially if the number of spawn waves is cut in half.

Edited by aVENGER, 05 March 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[GeN1e]

As noted before, deviating from Bioware's implementation involves a non-trivial amount of work and would unnecessarily complicate the spawn procedure possibly introducing the potential for bugs.

In that case, keeping unique CREs as 12 HD may have a greater impact on challenge - it's easier to keep one greater elemental alive, than to try and guess which one of 12 HDs is special.
Also it will provide some more randomization at no expense.

Edited by GeN1e, 06 March 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[aVENGER]

Update: Earth and Fire Elementals are done.

Engulf & Burn

As you can see, the Fire Elementals' Engulf ability of has been slightly revised. It no longer makes the target helpless (unlike the Water Elementals' Envelop). Instead, it merely prevents the target from moving, negates its dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and deals fire damage to it each round.

Also, in the original game, summoned Fire Elementals would turn against the party if they were hit by an area effect fire spell (i.e. Fireball, Agannazar's Scorcher or Incendiary Cloud). This was unfairly limiting their usefulness and will no longer occur with aTweaks. In short, your summoned Fire Elementals won't mind being exposed to fire-based spells.

Finally, I've implemented some of Ardanis' suggestions concerning the Underdark portals. As a reminder, in the original game there was only one elemental per portal but it kept respawning ten times. With aTweaks, there are now three elementals per portal but they only respawn five times. One of them is always a Greater Elemental, but the other two are now randomized and can be of the lesser, regular, greater or elder variety.

Edited by aVENGER, 10 March 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[aVENGER]

Some updates on elemental shapechange spells/abilities.

Elemental traits

The caster now gains all the relevant traits and abilities of the elemental that he changes into. For example, in the screenshot above, you can see that Nalia is immune to Web while shapechanged into a Fire Elemental. The Ogre that she's fighting can't actually harm her since she's also immune to +1 and non-magical weapons. Also, notice that Jaheira has gained the Earthquake special ability after shapechanging into an Elder Earth Elemental.

[Salk]

Very neat!

[Shaitan]

Astounding.

I'm soonish starting a new BG2 game, when are you thinking releasing a new aTweaks version?

Edited by Shaitan, 11 March 2012 - 10:15 PM.

[aVENGER]

Thanks guys.

FYI, the new version will take at least a few more weeks. I still have to revise all the Elemental Princes and code their (fairly complex) AI scripts. Also, I need to make sure that aTweaks' changes are fully compatible with SCS I&II, Spell/Item Revisions, Refinements, Big Picture, gMinion... etc.

[phordicus]

You're not obligated to, of course, but would you consider enhancing most of (all?) the druids in the game to take advantage of the new shapechanges?

[aVENGER]

You're not obligated to, of course, but would you consider enhancing most of (all?) the druids in the game to take advantage of the new shapechanges?

It's a nice idea, but I think that enhancing the AI of druid opponents would be out of scope for this component.

On the other hand, if some other mod (say SCSII) makes druid opponents use the Elemental Transformation HLAs, they will benefit from the changes made by aTweaks. The same goes for mage opponents using the Shapechange spell.

[aigleborgne]

You're not obligated to, of course, but would you consider enhancing most of (all?) the druids in the game to take advantage of the new shapechanges?

It's a nice idea, but I think that enhancing the AI of druid opponents would be out of scope for this component.

On the other hand, if some other mod (say SCSII) makes druid opponents use the Elemental Transformation HLAs, they will benefit from the changes made by aTweaks. The same goes for mage opponents using the Shapechange spell.

Don't they have some innate abilities ? If so, it needs some scripting too

[Demivrgvs]

As always Kudos for your work aVENGER. I have only one objection, many of the cool abilities you're implementing doesn't really seem to be PnP, are you using books from a different setting?

That being said, I like the idea of adding cool unique features/abilities to each elemental type (e.g. whirlwind, engulf, etc.) and if you don't mind I may actually end up stealing your ideas for the upcoming SR V4 (summons) and KR V1 (aka druid's elemental forms). It's actually better if I do imo, as then installing aTweaks over SR wouldn't alter them too much, no?

Generally the latent compatibility issue between your creatures and SR/SCS ones is a matter of "power lvl" (with your creatures often having more cool features but much less staying power), what's the best way to improve this aspect in your opinion?

I guess keeping SR/SCS stats and "overwriting" your abilities and scripts over them is the way to go for you (am I wrong?), but is that always a viable and balanced solution? Are there other times where you instead completely replace SR/SCS creatures? Do you prefer the latter solution?

FYI, the new version will take at least a few more weeks. I still have to revise all the Elemental Princes and code their (fairly complex) AI scripts. Also, I need to make sure that aTweaks' changes are fully compatible with SCS I&II, Spell/Item Revisions, Refinements, Big Picture, gMinion... etc.

Speaking of which, I'd like to point out that compatibility with SR is either very easy or a real pain in the a**! SR's Shapechange spell doesn't have elemental forms anymore for a simple reason: Iron Golem form outshines any elemental form and makes all of them completely redundant.

Iron Golem
STR 24, DEX 9, CON 9; AC 3, THAC0 -2
2 Attacks Per Round, 2d10+16 Crushing Damage (Fist +4)
Immune to weapons lower than +3 enchantment
Immune to backstab & poison effects
Magic Resistance 100%
Acid, Cold, & Electrical Resistance 100%, Fire Resistance 125%
Slashing, Piercing, & Missile Resistance 40%, Crushing Resistance 20%

So, if I was you I'd simply skip Shapechange-related changes if SR is detected, what do you think?

When it comes to Conjure (Lesser) Elemental spells instead I don't know, but if you replace them you may want to either patch or overwrite the spells in-game descriptions as I provide all details of them there (stats, abilities, etc)!

Edited by Demivrgvs, 13 March 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[GeN1e]

Generally the latent compatibility issue between your creatures and SR/SCS ones is a matter of "power lvl" (with your creatures often having more cool features but much less staying power), what's the best way to improve this aspect in your opinion?

That is my (only) worry as well. Starting from mid SoA, melee DPS rating goes very high, both party and enemy wise, so it is only powerful anti-melee protections (PFWM, Fireshields, an at will invisibility) that may keep summons alive for longer than it takes to cast a banishing spell.

Adding aTweaks' abilities on top of SCS/SR's beefing up will easily result in overpowered creatures. This is not inherently bad, but it has to be a player's choice to select such an option.

Thus I would simply overwrite SR's creatures and offer an option to increase elementals' staying power - like you've already done for Princes. Although I do like SR's physical resistance bonuses.

[aVENGER]

As always Kudos for your work aVENGER. I have only one objection, many of the cool abilities you're implementing doesn't really seem to be PnP, are you using books from a different setting?

Thanks, but it looks like you missed a couple of my earlier posts in this thread. As noted before, the Greater and Lesser elementals and their respective abilities are based on PnP source material.

That being said, I like the idea of adding cool unique features/abilities to each elemental type (e.g. whirlwind, engulf, etc.) and if you don't mind I may actually end up stealing your ideas for the upcoming SR V4 (summons) and KR V1 (aka druid's elemental forms).

Sure, go ahead.

I guess keeping SR/SCS stats and "overwriting" your abilities and scripts over them is the way to go for you (am I wrong?)

aTweaks should always be installed as late as possible i.e. after SR and SCSII. The compatibility adjustments that aTweaks makes are based on that assumption.

Are there other times where you instead completely replace SR/SCS creatures?

aTweaks takes precedence over SR/SCSII with all Fiends and Fey creatures. However, note that aTweaks doesn't actually overwrite the CRE files. Rather, it patches them to conform with PnP norms and thereby negates the enhanced physical stats granted by SR/SCSII.

When it comes to Conjure (Lesser) Elemental spells instead I don't know, but if you replace them you may want to either patch or overwrite the spells in-game descriptions as I provide all details of them there (stats, abilities, etc)!

aTweaks will ship its own elemental summoning spell descriptions, as it already foes for fiends.

Edited by aVENGER, 13 March 2012 - 08:19 AM.

[aigleborgne]

Iron Golem
STR 24, DEX 9, CON 9; AC 3, THAC0 -2
2 Attacks Per Round, 2d10+16 Crushing Damage (Fist +4)
Immune to weapons lower than +3 enchantment
Immune to backstab & poison effects
Magic Resistance 100%
Acid, Cold, & Electrical Resistance 100%, Fire Resistance 125%
Slashing, Piercing, & Missile Resistance 40%, Crushing Resistance 20%

Your Iron Golem is stronger than in P&P, this is why elementals are obsolete
It should have 1 APR, 3 thac0 and be immune to any spells but electrical attacks should slow it for 3 rounds. Fire actually heals it a bit.
But no physical resistances, where do they come from ? In P&P 3rd edition, its big size gives additionnal HP, it should be around 40 for an iron golem.
And Iron Golem is slow : 6, as an earth elemental.

Considering these facts, it should be strong but in par with P&P Elementals.
Earth is strong too and its ability are better than Iron golem ones.

[Demivrgvs]

Iron Golem
STR 24, DEX 9, CON 9; AC 3, THAC0 -2
2 Attacks Per Round, 2d10+16 Crushing Damage (Fist +4)
Immune to weapons lower than +3 enchantment
Immune to backstab & poison effects
Magic Resistance 100%
Acid, Cold, & Electrical Resistance 100%, Fire Resistance 125%
Slashing, Piercing, & Missile Resistance 40%, Crushing Resistance 20%

Your Iron Golem is stronger than in P&P, this is why elementals are obsolete.

No, Iron Golem is stronger than pretty much any elemental in any PnP version (except extremely buffed versions such as Princes). "My" Iron Golem should be compared to SR/SCS elementals which are much more powerful than aTweaks ones, and the "stronger than AD&D" parts you see (physical resistances and better apr) are shared by both iron golem and elementals as they come from 3E PnP. It's really not my fault but a matter of fact that an Iron Golem is a hugely more threatening creature with almost unmatched resistances and immunities.

Long story short, if aVENGER will ever make a PnP Iron Golem it would be pretty much identical to mine (except apr and mid-low physical res) and it would still be a way more powerful/effective Shapechange form than any 16 or oven 20HD PnP elemental form. Within 3E an Iron Golem has "challenge rating 13", whereas 16, 20 or 24HD elementals have only "challange rating" 7, 9 and 11 respectively - there's no such "DM/reader-friendly" stat within AD&D monster book, but the difference between creatures power lvl is the same.

It should have 1 APR, 3 thac0 and be immune to any spells but electrical attacks should slow it for 3 rounds. Fire actually heals it a bit.

Apr should be 1 for all elementals too within AD&D, but I opted for a mix between AD&D and 3E to make them a decent threat so SR/SCS elementals have 2 (fire, earth) or 3 (air) attacks per round! I planned to add the slow effect when hit by an electrical attack for V4 but it's a real pain to do, whereas the over 125% fire resistance is there to achieve what you say.

But no physical resistances, where do they come from ? In P&P 3rd edition, its big size gives additionnal HP, it should be around 40 for an iron golem. And Iron Golem is slow : 6, as an earth elemental.

As I said from 3E: damage reduction 10/adamantine. Both iron golem and earth elementals do have slower movement rate within SR.

Considering these facts, it should be strong but in par with P&P Elementals.
Earth is strong too and its ability are better than Iron golem ones.

Better abilities? Which ones? Not to mention that almost nothing can compare to Iron Golem's 100% magic resistance (which cannot be lowered neither in PnP nor within SR/SCS). Sorry but I really cannot see how a 16 or even 20HD elemental can be even remotely on par with an Iron Golem, and afaik that's not even supposed to happen.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 14 March 2012 - 12:18 AM.

[aigleborgne]

Better abilities? Which ones? Not to mention that almost nothing can compare to Iron Golem's 100% magic resistance (which cannot be lowered neither in PnP nor within SR/SCS). Sorry but I really cannot see how a 16 or even 20HD elemental can be even remotely on par with an Iron Golem, and afaik that's not even supposed to happen.

Earthquake, from what I have seen in aTweaks, and all other abilities listed in readme.
In term of resistance, it is clear that Iron Golem wins. Note that he is not immune to magic, but spells doesn't effect him. It makes a difference because some spells ignore MR (I used spell level immunity in my own golem component.)
Offensively, Earth Elemental might have potential to match Iron Golem.

Now, I would still choose Iron Golem, except if I need some abilities like Earthquake.

About physical resistances, I will check. I have seen none for Stone Golem but I haven't checked Iron Golem yet.

Maybe replacing Iron golem by a stone golem ?

[Demivrgvs]

Better abilities? Which ones? Not to mention that almost nothing can compare to Iron Golem's 100% magic resistance (which cannot be lowered neither in PnP nor within SR/SCS). Sorry but I really cannot see how a 16 or even 20HD elemental can be even remotely on par with an Iron Golem, and afaik that's not even supposed to happen.

Earthquake, from what I have seen in aTweaks, and all other abilities listed in readme.

Who would prefer 1/day Earthquake over up the absurd amount of resistances and immunities granted by the golem form? Air Elemental's Whirwind and Fire Elemental's on hit Engulf abilities could be slightly more appealing imo, but still not nearly enough to match Iron Golem form's appeal.

In term of resistance, it is clear that Iron Golem wins. Note that he is not immune to magic, but spells doesn't effect him. It makes a difference because some spells ignore MR (I used spell level immunity in my own golem component.)

I've thought about that solution but I discarded it for two reasons:
- it's too much different from vanilla, I would have needed to patch all in-game golems to work like that, and SR is not supposed to do that
- even this solution has its flaws, for example granting immunity to 7th lvl spells would prevent Earthquake from working against golems, but such spell is actually supposed to work against golems

Long story short, I think my current solution is better imo: I kept vanilla's 100% magic resistance but I made it not affected by Lower Resistance or similar effects.

Maybe replacing Iron golem by a stone golem ?

I don't see the point. SR's Shapechange already offer enough forms imo, and unlike vanilla they all fill a different role (Mind Flayer's spellcasting, golem's anti-magic, werewolf uber-tank, and spectral troll's stealth). Adding all elemental forms (which all fill the most basic tank role) would simply add "more of the same" imo.

Furthermore, I actually really like to keep elemental forms a "druid exclusive".

[aVENGER]

A small update: Cryonax and the Ice Paraelementals are finished:

Cryonax and friends vs. party

As per PnP rules, Cryonax' Wall of Ice is three times as powerful as the normal version of the spell and deals 6d10 cold + 3d10 crushing damage. He will make good use of it along with his other cold-based spells. Cryonax can summon three Ice Paraelementals as allies, and thanks to his 17 INT, he is smart enough to recognize and dispel a Protection from Cold spell using Remove Magic. Lastly, I've attempted to make the Ice Paraelementals and Cryonax stand out from Ice Golems using a combination of the recoloring and transparency opcodes. Blizzard Trolls now have unique coloring too. The end result can be seen in the screenshot above.

Edited by aVENGER, 01 April 2012 - 07:32 AM.