81 replies to this topic

[kreso]

+1

 

We should build a voting site with comments and links to mod download locations. If someone gets offended then they should channel their anger to improve their mod or ignore it if they don't agree.

[The Imp]

Any time I post my "essentials" I feel as if somebody's gona be offended,..

Erhm, I find that when you are asked to deliver, you won't ... kinda amusing.
Yes, you can change your mind later and add things, but make a darn list and will see.

So I assume that it includes the:
BWFixpack
BWTextpack
BWTrimpack
ToBEx
BG2Fixpack
BGT
+your choises

+a way to install all, the BWS to me is more considerate, than the Install.bat, and the manual install, but choose a pick, after all it's yours to make. PS, you actually might wish to make the install automatic anyways.

Edited by The Imp, 23 September 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[10th]

As you're already beginning to post back and forth what a good basic megamod install should look like, has anyone of you ever looked at the Total Happiness/Total Happiness+ compilation offered in the BWS?

We already had that discussion over at the Kerzenburg forums, and the result was the install option of those two compilations.

10th

[kreso]

Any time I post my "essentials" I feel as if somebody's gona be offended,..

Erhm, I find that when you are asked to deliver, you won't ... kinda amusing.
Yes, you can change your mind later and add things, but make a darn list and will see.

So I assume that it includes the:
BWFixpack
BWTextpack
BWTrimpack
ToBEx
BG2Fixpack
BGT
+your choises

+a way to install all, the BWS to me is more considerate, than the Install.bat, and the manual install, but choose a pick, after all it's yours to make. PS, you actually might wish to make the install automatic anyways.

Deliver what? 

[The Imp]

Deliver what?

It's not apparently clear ? Darn, someones slow...
A list of mods you wish to archive to install together with BWS ... as "your compilation" , call it "kresos prefered hipster" -compilation for all I care.
You should use the BWP.pdf as a primary copy paste guide to take stuff from. As it also clears the install order etc.

Then make, or while making it, make a new thread in the Megamod Help Forum and ask how do I add that to the BWS as a compilation... and wait for your answer.

Edited by The Imp, 23 September 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[kreso]

Deliver what?

It's not apparently clear ? Darn, someones slow...
A list of mods you wish to archive to install together with BWS ... as "your compilation" , call it "kresos prefered hipster" -compilation for all I care.
You should use the BWP.pdf as a primary copy paste guide to take stuff from. As it also clears the install order etc.

Then make, or while making it, make a new thread in the Megamod Help Forum and ask how do I add that to the BWS as a compilation... and wait for your answer.

 Appreciate the input. As you may well know, BWS got the "setup order" wrong as it is, so even weapons' base damage will differ, and enemies will use vanilla HLA's even tough you install Refinements, amongst other things.

....but my compilation is unfortunately so small that using BWS to install it is sub-optimal. 

All said and done, once the installation order/present/persistent bugs are all fixed, I'll make sure to create, and share, my very own, hopefully expanded (lets call it "kreso's sweet Little Big Adventure - From Candlekeep to the great Unknown", I like that more than yours), megamod pack for all to enjoy.

[dabus]

By the way: Someone upped the thread about what mods may be good.

[Creepin]

We should build a voting site with comments and links to mod download locations.

Now there's a bad idea!
See, people use to have different tastes. For instance, I remember there was that guy hating Imoen Romance, while I believe it to be one of the best around. Or TDD: many people dislike it, while I wouldn't ever think of having megamod without it.
So, when seeing these mods are regarded as "bad" on a voting site, I'd say "screw that stupid thing" based on my previous expertise and pass buy, no big deal, but when a fresh player will comes upon it, he might actually believe to other people's choice, losing a chance to find out on his own, even though his tastes might be totally different of those voted before. All in all this voting, or, to be precise, believing it's results, seems to be rather adverse concept to me.

Edited by Creepin, 23 September 2013 - 09:16 PM.

[DavidWallace]

We should build a voting site with comments and links to mod download locations.

Now there's a bad idea!
See, people use to have different tastes. For instance, I remember there was that guy hating Imoen Romance, while I believe it to be one of the best around. Or TDD: many people dislike it, while I wouldn't ever think of having megamod without it.
So, when seeing these mods are regarded as "bad" on a voting site, I'd say "screw that stupid thing" based on my previous expertise and pass buy, no big deal, but when a fresh player will comes upon it, he might actually believe to other people's choice, losing a chance to find out on his own, even though his tastes might be totally different of those voted before. All in all this voting, or, to be precise, believing it's results, seems to be rather adverse concept to me.

I couldn't disagree more. People have finite time. There is nothing like enough time to try out every mod for yourself, and in any case, "trying out" a mod basically means playing with it, so if it's not very good then you've spent a chunk of time playing a not-very-good game. We use peer recommendation and reviewing for pretty much everything else in life; why not for mods?

[kreso]

I don't think, and probably neither does April, that such a page should serve as a "spit-bucket" where people would write "I hate this mod because I hate dwarves/lesbian mods" and similar.

What I had in mind, and would gladly contribute to, a page (or a forum) where people would objectively (at least partially) write about mods they played and what you can expect from installing them in a megamod (or on individual basis). Of course, praise would also be written there. There could even be standardized norms (items, gameplay, immersion, bugs, dialogues etc.) for evaluation.

I think this would be a much better solution than spending hours looking for a review of a mod you're interested in, but apart from a readme file (which can be rather incomplete) and several random insults to author fail to find anything of use. 

I agree with DavidW - peer2peer feedback in an integral part of life, work, education. It happens here on forums already, so why not make it a more I-have-it-all-in-one-place system? 

 

We should build a voting site with comments and links to mod download locations.

Now there's a bad idea!
See, people use to have different tastes. For instance, I remember there was that guy hating Imoen Romance, while I believe it to be one of the best around. Or TDD: many people dislike it, while I wouldn't ever think of having megamod without it.
So, when seeing these mods are regarded as "bad" on a voting site, I'd say "screw that stupid thing" based on my previous expertise and pass buy, no big deal, but when a fresh player will comes upon it, he might actually believe to other people's choice, losing a chance to find out on his own, even though his tastes might be totally different of those voted before. All in all this voting, or, to be precise, believing it's results, seems to be rather adverse concept to me.

People have different tastes is one of many great things (should we all play/like same mods!?). If we disagree, that doesn't prove anything (apart us having different tastes) neither does it make me right and you wrong and viceversa.

I don't think there should be a systematic voting system as in grades, but rather  a more descriptive one.

If I got interested in a mod and read online info consisting of 2 lines like "x mod sucks, would not touch it with a 10-foot pole. Hope the modder ends up in limbo" , I'd probably either search for more info or download it anyway, since the above means nothing to me apart that whoever written it doesn't like the mod.

If, however, 5 people wrote something like "It's a decent mod, albeit somewhat difficult by the time you start it. Enemies are slightly harder than those in vanilla BG1, but managable with some thinking. This mod does not introduce new items in game, apart few low-level scrolls and a big number of potions. Storyline is rather well developed, and additional info is..." - that's something you can take into account when thinking wether you will or will not install a certain mod.

[Ithildur]

I think it's a great idea if it can be kept from degenerating into the aforementioned spit bucket. A well done 'essential' or 'highly recommended' guide with a modest number of proven mods and updated instructions on how to install them could especially help folks who are newer to the game/modding have a better gaming experience. i.e. a version of BWP aimed at a much more modest install... with updates/correct fixes/documentation that can be kept up better since the number of mods to keep track of are much smaller.

 

I also see threads like this started by Lollorian  http://www.shsforums...-documentation/

 

I think there's a lot of merit to formally asking for and consolidating help with stuff like documentation. What struck me also was the post/request from CamDawg (the guy who heads up quite a few mods that are pretty much considered essential for BG games these days, BG2Fixpack, BG2Tweakpack, etc) about upcoming attempts to update a LOT of G3 mods in anticipation of the release of BG2EE, and the timeliness of all of this struck me.

 

I'll throw in a formal request here as well:

 

We're in a very, very sweet spot right now. Many mods--from Amber to the Yoshimo Romance--are looking at doing updates in preparation for the upcoming release of BGII:EE. As you start building the documentation, please post any fixes for mods to their forums (even if they've already been posted) as there's a very good chance there will be updates soon for a lot of stuff (even the abandoned stuff).

 

I know I'm looking at updates for a ton of G3 stuff, so if there are outstanding fixes, now is the time to report them.

 

 

 

I think it is a great time to get updates/fixes/compatibility/documenation sorted across the board. Personally I think the sane thing to do is to start by prioritizing a smaller pool of the more obviously essential mods, then expand to mods that are actively supported/updated, with old, unsupported mods as low priorities. Between BGEE and BG2EE becoming more of a factor for current modders and the lack of updates and quality of a lot of older (especially bigger and conceptually incompatible) mods, narrowing the focus and going for quality control seems a solid alternative to a 'we're going to make it possible to play with every mod in existance' type of approach.

 

I'd suggest a new thread somewhere else though for continuing that discussion; that topic is pretty far from this one's original scope.

Edited by Ithildur, 24 September 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[The Imp]

 Appreciate the input. As you may well know, BWS got the "setup order" wrong as it is, so even weapons' base damage will differ, and enemies will use vanilla HLA's even tough you install Refinements, amongst other things.
....but my compilation is unfortunately so small that using BWS to install it is sub-optimal.

So you can't go and open the BWP .pdf and copy paste the weidu.log lines to a .txt file and then fix the order by hand and then cutting it to a post ? Ouh, you can, I wonder what's the problem then. Is it that you do not wish to ? Just got to ask...

[ancalimohtar]

I'm really skeptical that giving an outlet for players to provide feedback on mods will create some kind of cesspool of youtube comments and verbal abuse. The community is way too small for that, and people willing to put work in to mod their 13 year old game are not going to shit on everybody. Honestly, if people are afraid of negative feedback, why not just create a system with only positive or neutral feedback? For example, it could have a complete list of all mods BWP can handle, and then I can click a box next to the ones I've played with, and then put a second check mark out of those that I'd recommend. Super barebones, super functional.

Maybe a slightly more complex but nuanced version would have different categories, like "Feels seamlessly integrated with vanilla," "Introduces fun combat," "High quality writing," "High quality voice acting," "Any introduced items/character options feel balanced," "Bug-free," "Introduces a lot of new content," and others. If you recommend a mod for any of those reasons, you would check the "recommended" box under each category. This way, players can look for what's important to them personally, and mod authors would actually get quantitative feedback on what people are less satisfied with. I would personally care a great deal about making sure all mods on my install list have a high percentage recommendation for the categories "Bug free," "Feels seemlessly integrated with vanilla," and "Any introduced items/character options feel balanced," but people who are looking for a big new adventure that maybe doesn't have to feel like it could have been coded by Bioware will look for "Introduces a lot of new content" and disregard "Feels seamless" instead.

So for example, I would personally check all of those buttons for the Xan mod except for "High quality voice acting." Maybe the Xan author gets to see that 95% of the people who have played Xan recommended it for "Feels seamlessly integrated with vanilla" but only 40% recommend it for "High quality voice acting." That's good feedback without anyone being nasty.

Or you could introduce a 1-3 star system for each category instead. But at the very least, a simple recommended/not check box would be useful, no?

Edited by ancalimohtar, 24 September 2013 - 12:07 PM.

[kreso]

 Appreciate the input. As you may well know, BWS got the "setup order" wrong as it is, so even weapons' base damage will differ, and enemies will use vanilla HLA's even tough you install Refinements, amongst other things.
....but my compilation is unfortunately so small that using BWS to install it is sub-optimal.

So you can't go and open the BWP .pdf and copy paste the weidu.log lines to a .txt file and then fix the order by hand and then cutting it to a post ? Ouh, you can, I wonder what's the problem then. Is it that you do not wish to ? Just got to ask...

Even if I "fix" 2 of the issues which I've ran across there's no telling what else might get f****** up.

But really, Refinements goes before SCS, not after, as it installed for me.

Using Refinements and Phord's Druid kits together may result in CTD easilly once HLA's get picked (unknow reason to me, could be the paws, or something local for me  ). Aside the fact that Refinements Shapeshifter-specific HLA will make your werewolf form worse than it is if you use DruidKits...  .

Only Item Revisions main components (base+potions) go that early in setup - all others go after item mods, since they patch the relevant files (rather then overwriting them, which the main component does).

IR + Infinity Animations causes CTD when club gets swinged - apperantly some animation bug (could be the % numbers of swing, thrust etc.)

Jarno, there's tons of stuff like this in BWS. These are just sveral issues which I (and when I tried the newest BWS I installed a very small ammount of mods, which are rather high-quality) ran into. 

There's no telling what more lurks there. (example: 3 of Spellpack's spells will break SCS - this comes right out of Spellpack's readme file. I don't know if BWS takes this into account - it probably should, or if DavidW made recent changes to SCS knowing that. If not, install should disable them if SCS is detected. Or, BWS doesn't fix it itself.). 

Now, feel free to take this little help and post it where it should go - hopefully it will be of some use. 

And no, it's not a problem to help - but as I said - there's no telling what else might get f***** up if you make these changes.

BWS is such a delicate flower....  .

That being said, I will help you guys with setup order, at least a bit .    Gimme few days and I'll post my findings wherever you want them.

[CamDawg]

I'm really skeptical that giving an outlet for players to provide feedback on mods will create some kind of cesspool of youtube comments and verbal abuse. The community is way too small for that, and people willing to put work in to mod their 13 year old game are not going to shit on everybody. Honestly, if people are afraid of negative feedback, why not just create a system with only positive or neutral feedback?

If anything the problem is actually the exact opposite. I don't think we get nearly enough constructive feedback, and the best constructive feedback is often negative. The cross-section of modders that don't want to hear criticism tend to publish the cross-section of mods you probably don't want to install anyway.

Someone telling my my mod is great is the same as someone saying my mod sucks, as neither give me a way to improve my mod (though, sure, one's nicer to hear). Someone reporting a bug, suggesting different options, or questioning choices I've made--this is the type of feedback I live for, and is the surest route to improvement. I'd rather improve my mods than have them suck, even if the feedback comes wrapped in aspersions upon my parentage.

I find modders tend to be the harshest critics, myself included, because we know the type of effort it takes to polish and publish a good, high-quality mod. This is absolutely not to say that non-modders feedback is somehow worth less, just that they tend to be a lot nicer in their comments--David and Liam aren't going to hesitate to tell me I've got some hideously embarrassing bug and that I should feel bad about it.

Another problem with a central mod recommendation site is the same problem modders generally have with a central repository--be it good, bad, or ugly, the feedback has to get back to the author if we want to keep the modding ecosystem alive and working.

[The Imp]

Only Item Revisions main components (base+potions) go that early in setup - all others go after item mods, since they patch the relevant files (rather then overwriting them, which the main component does).

Which is why the IR's main component is traditionally installed quite early and the tweaks are done way later in the order. It's already in the BWP's .pdf if you go and look(look at page 59 and page 185 of the English pdf file... or the weidu.log of it (301 & 316)).

Jarno, there's tons of stuff like this in BWS.

That's the reason why there is dozens of BWP versions and why the fixes are all needed... mostly, not because they make the mod easier and so forth.

PS, I appreciate the fact that you saw it fit to not comment on the "hipster" crack I made to (at) you, it seems that you are more mature that I made you to be and so I feel sorry to have made it, and others.

Edited by The Imp, 24 September 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[kreso]

Here is my feedback on BtB mod, dated bit over a month ago. Did it help someone? Can't say. Did it make Kulyok pleased a bit? I sure hope so.  It took roughly 10 minutes of my life to write my toughts down, while it took her much more to figure out/write/code the mod itself.

I'm not saying that it should be used as a template, but imo words>plain numbers. If I rate a mod as "8" on a scale to "10" it means nothing apart that I consider it ok - and even that may be a wrong assumption.

 

@anclimohtar

You're skeptical about if such a thread could be made into a pool of verbal insults? Just try googling "opinion of Improved Anvil" and read those a bit. May be a bit exceptional example, but there are gaming forums with relatively similar content.

Yes, people online often forget manners.

 

@The Imp

Don't feel sorry, I don't mind humor.