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Please stop distributing outdated modifications to SCS/SCSII


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#41 Ithildur

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:33 PM

Yeah, right, so if I take it personally when you claim that more than half of the mods I have tried to help out with are bad(as in subpar), while you have nothing to show for yourself... and don't even have the skills to find out if the one fix is needed that was... I kinda have something to say for you.

 

[edit] NM, beyond silly and pointless to respond to this. Apologies to the OP if my posts helped get things derailed.

 

 


Everyone has different standards; let's not attack each other for having different opinions. Personally, I have fairly high standards most mods (including most of my own) don't meet--but that doesn't mean I'm devaluing the work modders put into it. It's just personal preference. :)

 

Agreed; I stated twice that I do appreciate folks are putting in effort into BWP, even though there may be issues and/or the mods authored by other parties may vary in quality, and in the end the benefits to me personally are minimal.

 

 

Just to add, I do appreciate that there are guys putting in time and work into something like the mega/bwp efforts;

Edited by Ithildur, 20 September 2013 - 06:57 PM.


#42 Nocat

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:46 PM

Can we please get back to the issue here.

 

DavidWallace wants

 

-Outdated fixes/patches of SCS/SCS2 to be deprecated.

-More quality control on said fixes/patches.

 

To the first point, I do not know what conclusion has been found as to whether or not the fixes/patches of SCS/SCS2 are needed still. But if they are then I do not think anyone will object to them being removed.

 

To the second point, there is always room for improvement. I do not see any issue with the authors coming to a place like the SHS forums and asking for the patch to be removed if it is no longer needed. Most issues can be resolved with simple discussion without the need to berate or attack anyone else.



#43 Lollorian

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:03 PM

You're totally misunderstanding where I'm coming from; perhaps it's my fault if I didn't make it clear, I do not and never have installed hundreds of mods; given my experience and personal tastes with such things I would be a masochist to do so. I'm well aware that you can choose which mods are installed using BWP.

I'm sorry. Yes, I misunderstood because you said this:

 

... personally it's not my prefered cup of tea since, again, getting a bloated install with hundreds of mods that are (I'll be nice) not my type of mods isn't what I'm looking for.

 

If you know what mods you want, please tell us how you end up with a "bloated install with hundreds of mods that are not your type of mods".

 

====================================================

 

my issue is experiencing several times that 'solutions' that BWP brings to the table, i.e. 'fixes' to files... have caused buggy or failed installations, and that I was dismayed at what I found when I attempted to track down necessary information to try and avoid such outdated/questionable files/fixes. That's my main issue, and I was trying to simply say perhaps better documentation practices (and avoiding practices David/Kulok have requested be avoided) would go a long ways towards installers avoiding those kinds of problems. i.e. 'Hey, the text file in BWPFixpack says fix xyz dated 1/1/12 addresses problem abc with SCS, but I see in SCS's documentation that has already been addressed in this version dated 7/7/13 . Fix xyz may be superfluous or even problematic, I'll go ahead and leave that out'.

Quote cropped a bit for things I may comment on.

 

I've mentioned it in the last post, please bring forward any of these questionable fixes. At the least, I'll try to find the source of the fix or why it's needed. Also if I find it, I'll link to the post where that questionable fix has been reported to the mod's author.

 

====================================================

 

DavidW's concern was valid at the time he started this thread, but is not right now.

Kulyok just said the BWP should stop distributing fixes for her mods - without providing a reason for it. (I'd have made sure the fix in question was removed in the next BWPFixpack if I know there's been a update... also, if anyone's wondering why I didn't argue at the time. It's because I don't care)

 

====================================================

 

As for misleading documentation, the first line of the _BWP Fixes.txt admits that the file is outdated.

 

Since Leomars' absence this file is no longer supported. Read Lollorians excellent reports instead at: http://www.shsforums...he-big-fixpack/

You shouldn't have even bothered to read further (or atleast understood that whatever you're reading is outdated). I'll ask Leonardo to stop distributing the file in future BWFixpacks until it's updated though.

 

====================================================

 

As for name calling, I see only one (or was it two? not really that important) that engaged in such, and 'twas not I sir.

That wasn't addressed to you.


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#44 Nocat

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:27 PM

As long as you listen to a mod author's wishes, like with Kulyok, then there should be no issues at all. :)



#45 Creepin

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:39 PM

As long as you listen to a mod author's wishes, like with Kulyok, then there should be no issues at all. :)
Don't you think that listening to player's wishes, like, you know, to play without bugs, would be of more importance in the big picture (yeah, pun intended)? That is if anybody need to listen to any wishes at all when it comes to modding, which is highly doubtful in the first place.

Edited by Creepin, 20 September 2013 - 09:39 PM.

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#46 Nocat

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:44 PM

While author's put the mod out there to be used by the players.

 

It is THEY who run the show on their mod, not the people who use it.

 

It is the same reason that there are plagiarism laws.

--

 

With that being said, I do not know why an author would tell someone to stop distributing a fix at all.



#47 PinchIt

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 10:07 PM

Don't you think that listening to player's wishes, like, you know, to play without bugs, would be of more importance in the big picture (yeah, pun intended)? That is if anybody need to listen to any wishes at all when it comes to modding, which is highly doubtful in the first place.

+1


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#48 Ithildur

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:56 AM

If you know what mods you want, please tell us how you end up with a "bloated install with hundreds of mods that are not your type of mods".

 

I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

 

Fact #1. I can choose which mods to install.

Fact #2 Therefore I avoid bloated installations. What must I do to make it clear to you that I've never ended up with hundreds of mods installed? (see previous post)

 

This does not change Fact #3. BWP's efforts are geared towards massive installations by it's very definition/purpose.

 

Nor does it change opinion #1: BWP's desire to enable massive installation of mods (of varying degrees of quality and compatibility) is not my cup of tea.

 

That is what I've said. I've never said 'BWP forced me to install hundreds of mods'; you're reading that into my posts and jumping to conclusions.

 

As for removing the txt file, by all means that is your perogative; one would hope that someone will in it's stead provide actual updated documentation someday.


Edited by Ithildur, 21 September 2013 - 04:02 AM.


#49 Kulyok

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:14 AM

By the way, not that anybody's interested, but BWP was going to introduce a wrong change to Xan, actually, not a fix. (Based on my random comment in my forum, at that. A fix would be adding two variables, not one, which I have done with my own update). 



#50 ancalimohtar

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 10:21 AM

As someone who is basically illiterate with respect to modding and whatever coding language weidu mods use, who is barely competent enough to use Shadowkeeper and sometimes NI, who has very little time to spend digging through tons of forum posts, but who loves BG2's tactical combat and balance, I think the lack of cohesion in the modding community is its main problem.

I've posted this before, but I think a significant (and in my purely subjective opinion, a very important core) segment of the playerbase is underserved by all the current methods of modding BG2 right now. If you're playing with <5 mods, even <10, installing manually is the best way to do it. There's not going to be that many compatibility concerns, you can read through them quickly, and then just decide (in cases of "if you choose A in mod 1, don't pick B in mod 2") what you want. If you're installing with BGT and another megamod, then BWP is the way to do it. But what if you're like me, and you're in the middle, and want to install something like this:
Honestly, although my "30 mods" sounds like a lot, it's really not if you break it down:
-3 Fixes (Fixpack, BGTTweakpack, Tweakpack)
-6 Game balance/tactical mods (Item & Spell Revisions, SCS, aTweaks & Rogue Revisions, Refinements)
-3 Restored content mods (UB x 2, Ascension)
-10 NPC mods (2 banter mods, 6 of the highest-quality community NPCs, BG1 NPC Project and music pack)
-Level 1 NPCs so I can play with any NPCs for the content and banter rather than being restricted in my party makeup (Fighter-Thief Minsc!)
-2 support mods that make the rest work (BGT and TobEx)
-2 Graphics mods (Widescreen, Enkida's portrait mod).

BWP doesn't allow for customization UNLESS you go into the BiG World Install.bat and cross reference with the PDF and figure out more or less what the coding language means, and delete/add/change the component numbers yourself. Scrolling through that is a huge pain. I like my game somewhere between Tactical and Expert probably, and my component choices matter to me. Who knows what option BWP picks for "percentage of potions that break when enemies die"? But that has a non-trivial effect on gameplay, so of course I have to go look up the one I want, then check it against the .BAT file, and change it if I have to.

In the end I manually installed everything, but the last time I did this (spending days and days staring at the PDF) I fucked up my installation so bad half the spells didn't work right, leading me to quit the game in frustration for a year. This time it looks like the only bugs in the game are legitimate bugs, and not my poor install order/choices. But even so, it took me a LOT of time to read over everything. And I know when I finish this playthrough, and put the game away for another 6 months or a year, the next time I come back, I'll have to do it AGAIN, days and days of poring over readmes and blah blah with SR v4 and SCS v30 and aTweaks v5 or whatever.

I don't want to come off as ungrateful, because the modding community's work is nothing short of amazing, and its existence is keeping vibrant the second best computer game ever made (Civ 4 is untouchable). But I really wonder how many people there are like me, who just want an enhanced BG(2) experience, with fixes, quality-of-life tweaks, more tactical combat, and well-thought out game balance changes, without having to do a ton of research and learn this coding language just to customize my install.

If I were still in school and had the time to do it, I'd like to think I would try to make a "Medium-Sized World Project" and put in the above high-quality mods and some more optional ones (NPCs etc), ensure compatibility and encourage cooperation and planning between the authors, and create an install that asks the player one question per issue, regardless of whether more than one mod affects it. For example, how does the player want to to handle antimagic spells? The player's answer would decide which "package" of components with SR and SCS get picked. How does the player want to handle Fiends? Because SR, SCS, aTweaks all do different things, but one answer would decide it all. How many items can go into a Bag of Holding? More than one mod affects that too.

I guess basically the idea would be, take someone who has played the BG series a couple times, then, without having him do a bunch of research and reading stuff ahead of time (maybe an hour?) he can start the install process, and it would give him the required information as the install proceeds. No needing to make sure before you even start the install process that even though option A in mod 1 sounds good, you actually have to choose option B because later, when you're at mod 16, you'll want to pick blah blah blah and so on and so forth.

Edited by ancalimohtar, 21 September 2013 - 10:30 AM.

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#51 The Imp

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 10:51 AM

I got good news for you...

As someone ...
BWP doesn't allow for customization UNLESS you go into ...

Use the right tool, and that would be the latest recreation of BWS.

It has a full customization option in the main screen, after you have picked the compilation, you push the "..." right next to the compilation choosing button:

capturevmp.png

And then remove all the mods you wish not to install.

Well, that's the good news part... the fact that the mods are still faulty after the BWP fixes and so forth is the bad part... now you just got to go and report all your errors preferably here and in the mods own forum and help the community that way, will help.


Edited by The Imp, 21 September 2013 - 11:06 AM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
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#52 kreso

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:42 AM

Completely off-topic:

I'm not writing this to offend anyone, these are just my toughts about such huge install packages.

First time I installed BW via BWS was last year summer. I installed everything. I played through almost everything. And, I'd never do it again. I remember meeting 2 asassins (named Tristan and Izolde) at level 1, they killed my CHARNAME very fast. Next time I was playing it safe and killed them, aquiring weapons which put things like Celestial Fury to shame. Cool. Of course, at level 3 I aquired an axe with a +3 enhancement which, conviniently, gave an extra apr. Along with two enhchanted full-plates and several magical helmets. Not long after, I got a leather armor which offers better protection than Shadow Dragon leather.... in several copies. :doh:

The ammount of bugs, overpowered equipment and equally stupid enemies was insane. I litteraly had over 1million gold by the end of BG1.

The storylines of such mods are actually quite good, which did surprise me. However, that doesn't make them much better. 

Honestly, the ammount of mods which I'd reccomend to someone is very small. Might be my expectations/tastes, but, as an example:

NPC mods - if non-voiced, I usually don't bother with it. Not that it makes that much difference in it's quality, but I simply don't play them as such. 

A good Readme file is a must, I like to know what I'm installing.

Several personal quests may be good. Romance is ok, not required by any means.

Emo characters I can't stand.

Personal issues, too much whining, comments on every-little-thing, I hate deeply.  

Drow NPCs I hate even more (and they're usually emo as well). If they dual-wield, my hate just gets deeper. 

ToB content is very important. If I pick an NPC, I expect him to say something in ToB. If an NPC is SoA only, it's a no-no.

Yes, I have high expectations. :D But not impossible - Kivan, Tiax, Xan, Finch are all reccomended by me - even if they don't fit everything stated above, I love them. BG1 NPC Project is a real masterpiece :clap:

Basically, before you install your Megamoded game, ask yourself - do you truly need it? 50+ NPC you'll never actually play, 200 spells you'll never cast, equipment so powerful you are reluctant to use it, unspeakable number of bugs, and countless hours spent debugging your game.

If that's what gets you going, sure, use BWS, prey that install order is correct, go and play.  :Bow:  



#53 10th

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:44 PM

I litteraly had over 1million gold by the end of BG1.

And I would've spent that much gold two to three times before finishing BG1, and probably four to six times before finishing ToB. ;)

10th

Edited by 10th, 21 September 2013 - 02:32 PM.

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#54 The Imp

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 01:30 PM


I litteraly had over 1million gold by the end of BG1.

And I would've spent that many gold two to three times before finishing BG1, and probably four to six times before finishing ToB. ;)
10th


The lesson to learn from this is that some of the tweak mods make a big change depending on which options you choose and how you play the game. The BWP should not try to make things one way or another... the more options you have the better.
Honestly, the ammount of mods which I'd reccomend to someone is very small.
So ?
The fact that you have your prefered mods, shouldn't prevent others from using theirs... and this is the great spirit of the BWP, to try make everyone of the mods compatible, no matter: who, what etc. as long as they can be, with fixing the coding failures in them.
The fact is, you can make your own Small World Project and try to get people behind it, but it won't result to large fan base, I can almost quarantee that.
I also have my mods I want to install, and some that I have no idea if they are any good or not, I can still keep them in the game and choose to not actually use them, and one day after yet another one of my adventures go and find if they are actually not worth it...

Edited by The Imp, 21 September 2013 - 02:02 PM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#55 ancalimohtar

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:22 PM

I got good news for you...

As someone ...
BWP doesn't allow for customization UNLESS you go into ...

Use the right tool, and that would be the latest recreation of BWS.

It has a full customization option in the main screen, after you have picked the compilation, you push the "..." right next to the compilation choosing button:


BWS was dead for a long time, and now it's back as of a week ago. Updated by someone who seems to be new to modding. How long is it going to be updated for? I'm cautious, but hopeful.

It still doesn't address the overall concern I had: that a certain (core) constituency of the playerbase seems to be underserved.
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#56 kreso

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:32 PM

So ?
The fact that you have your prefered mods, shouldn't prevent others from using theirs...

So nothing. Install 5, 50, or 500 mods for all I care. 



#57 DavidWallace

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:52 PM

As long as you listen to a mod author's wishes, like with Kulyok, then there should be no issues at all. :)

Don't you think that listening to player's wishes, like, you know, to play without bugs, would be of more importance in the big picture (yeah, pun intended)? That is if anybody need to listen to any wishes at all when it comes to modding, which is highly doubtful in the first place.

Fully agree with you. Fixing bugs should be highest priority over anything else and any reason to make people less interested in fixing bugs (like Kulyok request) is a bad thing.

I have no objection to fixing bugs. But problems occur if the technical quality of the "fixes" is low enough to mean that they do more harm than good. At various points this has been the case with BWP "fixes" of SCS. In a spirit of charity I am for the moment accepting Lollorian's word that this isn't going to happen in the future. I wait with interest to see if that's correct.

#58 dabus

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 04:44 PM

Little OT @ancalimohtar:
BWP is all you can eat and you probably can't change Leonardos mind about that concept.
And I thinks it's save to say that he's not an active player who has an overview of all the mods content, weaknesses, good points and so on.
So it's natural that he won't grade them as others would do.

But I'd also like to state that there's no good reference system for BG-mods as far as I know. There has been one thread that had caught my attention in the past few years that had a longer discussion about quality of mods here in the megamod forum. I also can't remember a site where quests, fun, stories, tactical encounters, npc quality are voted or conclusions are summed up.

And the BWP is mainly maintained by Leonardo only, Lol "catching" fixes and translators doing their work for mods and the pdf.
BWS was most of the time maintained by me and I haven't been a BG player for years.

That's why it's a bit sad that - even if you take your time for a larger response - that we can't follow you in your quality-selection - as we don't know and you (and others) didn't stated precisely. So you (pl) wouldn't have those problems if you helped out a bit. Maybe you could try to make a selection of mods/components and post it here -- maybe quiet/alien would take and apply them to the selections that ship with their BWS and help others with their selection.
I cannot speak in place of Leonardo and the BWP installpack but I guess integrating the choice there would be more complicated, so I rather guess that he won't include it.

Edit: I guess you'd consent a bit more with the cut down pre-selections that were previously shipped with the BWS.
Funny thing was that I've never received one selection since I introduced the import/export feature and included Arkenors selection, which is nearly 3 years ago.

Edited by dabus, 22 September 2013 - 04:56 PM.

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#59 Ithildur

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 07:29 PM

Players like ancalimohtar and Kreso are in the same boat as I am (btw, responding to our predicament with 'BWP let's you choose what mods to install so what's the problem?' isn't addressing our point, we know BWP let's you pick mods, that's not the issue. I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp).

 

My approach currently is to manually install; I know the mods that I consider essential like BG2Fixpack/BGT, SCS, and high quality reasonably balanced ones like Kulyok's Xan (the Moonblade upgrade is on par with another infamous item from vanilla BG2, heh), RR, Atweaks, Questpack, BG1NPC, BG2Tweaks etc, and many smallish tweak mods that have proven to be bug free/reliable/well supported. All in all I end up with between 30 to 50 mods; certainly quite a bit of work doing them manually, but at this point after several installs where I've let BWP's installer do the work for me (I edited the batch file of course) I've found that doing it this way is more reliable.

 

The automated install can be convenient until:

-it starts to install wrong components because say, there were typos in the component selection txt files (happened at least twice), or

-because the BWP Fixpack (which is automatically applied I believe as part of the automated install process) contains bad or outdated fixes (happened twice as well iirc)

 

Now it may be that with Lolorian taking over (I know he's been putting a lot of effort into the fixpack) things have been fixed, typos eliminated, things are improved overall; I've just chosen to not repeat my previous experiences where I've relied on the automated installer and then gone back to fix errors manually (painstakingly looking for threads to find the correct fixes, etc due to lack of documentation) - once burned, twice shy or whatever.

 

And even if he's doing a bang up job, the reality is that keeping up with hundreds of mods is no small feat; the margin of error is larger and my experience seems to confirm it.

 

Honestly with my current install I was tempted to use the BWP automated installer again, just because I wanted to get it over with quickly. I thought to myself 'All I have to do is try and check the Fixpack's contents to make sure the fixes aren't going to break the most recent versions of the mods, then edit the batch file'.

In the end seeing threads like this (and another one elsewhere), along with realizing how outdated the documentation in the BWP Fixpack was, combined with the reality that editing the batch file for automated install ends up being enough work that it really doesn't save me that much time (not surprisingly my preferences/tastes generally are on the opposite end of the spectrum from the default BWP choices), convinced me I'd rather not go there again.

 

The difficulty with manual installation, of course, is you need a reference point for order of install/warnings about potential conflicts, etc. I do use BWP's pdf file as a guideline (along with the readme's of some of the mods, lists over in the PP forums and G3 forums, and experience), keeping in mind that there's always going to be some outdated/inaccurate information. Again, it's simply reality; active modders update their mods, and among a pool of hundreds of mods, there are going to be updates that BWP folks simply aren't going to always be on top of to update in their pdf file.

 

THIS is where I find the opacity of BWP (lack of documenation or version notes of fixes, etc) frustrating. I don't blame them for not being on top of hundreds of mods; what would be nice though is to be able to look at documentation shipped with the latest version of BWP and quickly realize 'their fix for XYZ is a year old and for version 123; I know XYZ has had updates since then, this probably needs to be deleted before it gets patched. Hey, the rest of it looks good, I don't need to do anything else!' and boom, presto, run the fixpack batch file/auto installer with a high degree of confidence, with editing the batch file as the only bit of legwork I need to do.

 

Unfortunately this isn't the case currently.

 

So you (pl) wouldn't have those problems if you helped out a bit. Maybe you could try to make a selection of mods/components and post it here -- maybe quiet/alien would take and apply them to the selections that ship with their BWS and help others with their selection.

 

 

Maybe that is a worthwhile approach, to have contirbutions like a 'essential mods' list from folks like ancalimohtar and Kreso that are more interested in focusing on a smaller pool of mods. Certainly would be easier to stay on top of fixes and current info, maintain communication with mod authors, etc. with a smaller list.


Edited by Ithildur, 22 September 2013 - 07:49 PM.


#60 kreso

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:20 AM

@Ithildur

Any time I post my "essentials" I feel as if somebody's gona be offended, tbh. But the facts is - huge number of mods, ranging from NPCs to 400MB behemots, are simply bad. Very bad. Either bugged, don't fit in game, stupid, OP, just silly, or; in worst-case scenarios, will completely break your install due to some error. And no BWS can make them better - the number of possible bad interractions in between all of those is simply too big to deal with. 

And overall, I trust my own handwork more than an autoscript, altough I agree; it's damn convinient and saves both time and trouble in a megamod install. 

Even a large number of quality mods won't play together nicely (take for example Infinity Animations + Item Revisions - CTD if a BG1 animated character wielding an IR club swings it), let alone some 2003 relics which were never even meant to be installed together.