191 replies to this topic

[Schatten]

interesting discussion.
i didnt know that abs immunity protects for +5 weapons also.

what i must say is that lucys argumentation is flawed. you cannot argue with "dont want +6 weapons? then dont use them.".
sure, if you dont want to change it we have to deal with it.

[Hendryk]

interesting discussion.
i didnt know that abs immunity protects for +5 weapons also.

what i must say is that lucys argumentation is flawed. you cannot argue with "dont want +6 weapons? then dont use them.".
sure, if you dont want to change it we have to deal with it.

I don't think Lucy is arguing here; just stating facts. Namely, she did the mod and this is what she thinks is appropriate. If a player doesn't like this or that detail, the player can change it locally. That's not a debating proposition, that's just the way it is - with any mod.

[Littiz]

With that starting point there's absolutely no need for a forum: take it or leave. same ol'story
Of course the author can say it in any moment, but there's only positive value in feedback, I think there's no denying here.

I've *not* tried Chloe yet (only modding and no playing for now ), but I tend to agree on this one with TGM and Shatten.
That'd be like saying "let's make mages able to wear any armor, you can simply stay away from armors if you want!"

The coolness of a character imho is given more by its limits than anything else (that's why I've become MAD in studying the issues of items restrictions for the mod I'm working on, and I don't regret the time spent).

I'm not saying there are not adequate justifications for Lucy's choices, but if I see, before trying a new NPC, that it has stats at 25 and some overpowered weapons, my starting opinion is lowered by some points.
I think for instance that 21 DEX would look godly enough, without that uncomfortable smell like "25: the MAXIMUM value, you know!"
But, I cannot say more on this until that FAR time when I'll be able to actually play BG2 again

[Lucythebeast]

An elf can have 20 dex with no magical enhancements. Not every race is limited to 18 in stats. Of course, this is using the flawed and overly-complicated 2E system that the game is based on, as it was in the dying days of 2E. Anyway, as Hendryk said, I wasn't arguing anything, I was just stating facts. I tinkered with Chloe during testing and even before she was being coded by feedback from testers and some of her original weakpoints were lessened and some of her strengths were heightened, and some of them were dropped or changed altogether. There's already been a large effort in balancing Chloe and it's borderline insulting to get griped at like I just tossed things in without regards to their effects on the game. Truthfully, I could have put a lot less effort into balancing and still been happy with the results. I guess none of that matters.

[Renmauzo]

Well, 25 dex is a little blatant.  I do not think someone could be blamed for asking what were you thinking when it comes to that.  Imagine any other NPC mod with a 25 in any given stat.

[Kish]

An elf can have 20 dex with no magical enhancements. Not every race is limited to 18 in stats. Of course, this is using the flawed and overly-complicated 2E system that the game is based on, as it was in the dying days of 2E. Anyway, as Hendryk said, I wasn't arguing anything, I was just stating facts. I tinkered with Chloe during testing and even before she was being coded by feedback from testers and some of her original weakpoints were lessened and some of her strengths were heightened, and some of them were dropped or changed altogether. There's already been a large effort in balancing Chloe and it's borderline insulting to get griped at like I just tossed things in without regards to their effects on the game. Truthfully, I could have put a lot less effort into balancing and still been happy with the results. I guess none of that matters.

I'm probably one of the people you're feeling insulted by, so I should reply--speaking just for myself, not for anyone else.

I didn't mean to hurt you, and I'm sorry that I did.

Yes, it does matter, though perhaps, in the most immediate sense, not in a way you'd want. If you hadn't posted upthread that you tried hard to balance Chloe, I would never have posted to this thread at all, and you wouldn't know now that I consider a +6 one-handed weapon unbalanced (I likely would still have mentioned it later, though).

The only way to write a mod which no one will think is too powerful is to write a mod that everyone will agree is too weak. My Oversight mod includes new monk HLAs. Some people think they're overpowered. Others don't. Most importantly, I don't. The fact that you believe Chloe is perfectly balanced is what matters most, and all you can hope for. My earlier message in which I asserted that Chloe's weapons are part of her power wasn't directed at you, it was a reply to Gabrielle's post. I think it's very much to your credit that you did put effort into balancing her.

[T.G.Maestro]

I didn't mean to hurt you, and I'm sorry that I did.

I would join to this one. None of my words or criticism is against YOU or your feelings, but since this a public mod, I think it most netural to throw in some positive comments in order to further improve your work. One thing to add: the fact that you are satisfied with your mod is one thing - making a truly good mod is another. While Chloe is absolutely well planned and she fits the world of BG prefectly, one thing isn't a question: some of her abilities are way over the "acceptable" value - that is the main reason why so many people argue over this one. Remember the Valen mod? There was a much harder and bloodier argument over there a year ago, and guess what: not because she was well-balanced . The same could go for Kiara, but that is another story.

I know, all modder loves his/her creation, and feels somewhat offended by the criticising words of others. The main problem is that this "offended" state prevents them to see things clearly, many of them finds him/herself in a defensive position, and wouldn't bow to any positive balancing suggestions just because of pride.

Again, I would suggest to lower her DEX score to a much reasonable (though still supernatural) value, lets say 22. It wouldn't cripple her, but would satisfy many players who find that 25 crazy (inculding myself). Another thing is her weapons. The enchantment cap on her blades should stop at +5/+4, and no more. Since they are one ahnded weapons, this is again a balancing issue (see my reasoning a few posts above). If you find those weapons weak, give them other effect to compensate for the enchantment loss (for example greater damage without THAC0 bonuses).
Or give her some weakness! She could be very vulnerable to electrical or magical damage, just to pick one.. the list is endless. ANY of these would balance her.

[Littiz]

I certainly didn't mean to be offensive, my opinions here have a very low value since, as I said, I didn't try the character yet. Frankly I'm amazed that people in these forums always take things the wrong way.

I'm only saying how it sounds "from the extern" when you read something like 25 Dex and +6 weapons, I'm not saying you hadn't reasons to do it, and it's clear that the judgement wouldn't only based on that in the end.

But if you don't accept such comments, I'm retiring it, no worries.

[Warder]

Quite honestly... I really don't see what the argument is all about. Time constraints have really prevented me from going all that far with Chloe myself - just arrived on ye olde Spellhold island - and I've personally found her to be perhaps a little more powerful than the standard Bioware NPCs in some situations.

Now, the question is... why did this turn into such a long discussion? Is there a law that says "all NPCs have to be equally powerful"? It's quite obvious that it doesn't work that way just from looking at the Bioware NPCs.... Cernd vs. Sarevok, who'd you rather have in terms of effectiveness? If someone made a "farm girl/boy mod" introducing an NPC that was near useless in combat, but had lots of interesting banters/quests/whatnot, would you complain that she/he wasn't as good at fighting as Minsc? For her background, Chloe makes a lot of sense, I think.

And to take it even further, just for the heck of it... since when is BG2 a balanced game at -all-?

*cough*kensaimagerobeofvecnacelestialfury*cough*

*shrugs* Accept Chloe for what she is, I'd say. You'll have more fun playing that way.

[Littiz]

Maybe just TGM and I have the attitude to understand it, but they were just *suggestions*.
Indeed we work as a team and we behave this way:
One creates something, the other reacts. If he finds that something is slightly or (much) out of place then he just says it and we start to barter. In all circumstances this led to a BETTER result, as NO ONE can consider all aspects on the first try. No offence taken either side.

The comments given on the forums have the same purpose, add only that each opinion has to be weighed by the number of people who support it, and the author has the final word.

But since every little suggestion or critic more often than not is read as an offence instead of a humble proposal or opinion, and one is always forced to say "I didn't mean to offend"... I repeat for the zillionth time, wouldn't it damn faster to close the involved forums once and for all?

Ok, sorry to have bothered, I take my leave

[T.G.Maestro]

Is there a law that says "all NPCs have to be equally powerful"?

No. Of course she may be weaker than several other NPCs from a specific point of wiew: she cannot cast spells like Edwin does, she cannot morph into a Werewolf like Cernd does, and she cannot find traps as Yoshimo. Of course, since she is a fighter, and should be measured as such. But if you compare her to the fighter NPCs available in SoA/ToB, the result is the same. I HIGHLY doubt that Chloe should have much chance against Sarevok (an NPC who is way underpowered), still she would kill her in a duel 4 times from 5. And this is rediculous. The boss of BG was Sarevok, not Chloe, and I guess you already know what I keep talkin' about: she should have some weaknesses if she has such bonuses compared to a normal kensai. Anything. That is what makes this game balanced.
You keep talking about multi-buffed characters - that is another story, it depends on the players attitude. If one prefers powergaming, that is his choice. But giving an ALREADY buffed character to the NPC repertoire...

Maybe just TGM and I have the attitude to understand it, but they were just *suggestions*.
Indeed we work as a team and we behave this way:
One creates something, the other reacts. If he finds that something is slightly or (much) out of place then he just says it and we start to barter. In all circumstances this led to a BETTER result, as NO ONE can consider all aspects on the first try. No offence taken either side.

Indeed.

one is always forced to say "I didn't mean to offend"...

I was referring to the same thing in my last post in this thread.

[Geoff the Barbarian]

I've got Chloe in two different parties, both groups still in the early game (chapters 2-4).

I am very much against unbalancing my party. I like the tactical challenge of the game at least as much as the other aspects. Because of this there are only two NPC mods I've been willing to try: Chloe and Tashia.

And surprise, Tashia turns out to be unbalanced. Her stupid panther once killed the Unseeing Eye, all by itself, by accident! I thought I was sending the panther far away from the battle but unkowingly sent it to the place where the Unseeing Eye was lurking. I was in a different battle with Gaal and wasn't paying attention. Suddenly I see "Unseeing Eye" pass by in the text window, and by the time I can figure out what is going on the panther has wasted it.

And you can't even remove the damn thing (although I *can* simply not activate it ever again).

I also felt that starting Tashia out with the staff spear AND the ring of aptitude was a little much. Forgivable, as these items would have become available rather quickly anyway, but still too much for that stage of the game. Unlike the panther for which there is no excuse whatsoever. I am sure that the Tashia mod designer has mamy arguments as to why the panther belongs on Tashia, and why it is not unbalanced. Hey, the designer put the time and effort into it, why not do what he/she wanted to do? My opinion isn't even relevant.

But my personal preference would be to downgrade the panther. A lot.

The only thing that I have found to be unbalanced so far with Chloe is her vocal volume. She is a useful and welcome addition to both of my groups but is not even the leading fighter in either group.

Now having said that, I too think there should not be a +6 one-handed weapon.

Yet I voted for option 1 - well balanced. So far I am very pleased with Chloe and glad that I chose to download and install her.


p.s. I saw a reference in another thread to changing Chloe's vocal volume - but no specifics on how to do so. Can someone point me to a thread that contains instructions on this?

[The Dude]

I personally think that from what I've seen of Chloe, she is a well made and balanced mod. In that she is more powerful than some NPCs and less powerful than others. I think a lot of people have a problem with the 25 dex, but in just a game mechanics sense, there really isn't all that much of a distinction. I think (for a Kensai) there really is only a difference of -3 points to AC, which really isn't much when you think about it. I mean, yes, at the very beginning, she's a bit more powerful, but that is mainly an equipment thing and frankly by midway through chapter 2 you're looking at much better equipment than she has. And remember, she is supposed to be a half goddess. Of a living god even. And despite all this, she gets smacked around pretty good if you leave her a front liner.

I personally think that Lucy produced one hell of a balanced mod. And it is her mod, and she said she did a lot of balancing work, something I am willing to take her at face value on.

Just my 2 cents on this whole thing.

[Grumpy Guy]

Indeed, what I was refering to was the lack of plus six one handed weapons.

I still say good.

Chloe adds exactly one +6 one handed weapon that only Chloe herself can use. How is that any more unbalancing than a two handed +6'er?

As for Chole's stats ,there's nothing wrong with them. +25 Dex sounds a whole hell of a lot worse than it actually is. I actually have some trouble keeping her alive

She's enough of a force in combat that I would say she's about Minsc's equal. That's about as bad as it gets - she's not overpowered, IMHO - not in any sense.

Which is more than I can say for a lot of add-an-NPC mods.

[Schatten]

okay i try it the last time.
lets look an the bioware npcs. take one group, for example fighters. there you have a strenght range. korgan may be the strongest. when creating a new fighter npc i think you should make him fit IN this range. make him tougher would outbalance things.
i personaly think bg2 originaly is balanced. my first game was a disaster. i got owned everywhere. i had do edit my savegames alot. my second try was mediocre. no cheats/edits but it was more of a challenge. reloading alot, using walkthrough to get the most exp etc.
so with this in mind make an fighter tougher as korgan is not a great idea. he would be too good. and when evaluating a npc you have to look on all aspects, even panthers and swords that came with the mod.
for valen i have to downgrade her because she roxxorz more than korgan. i simply couldnt tolerate this. it was mainly her weapon that was a pain. after that he was euqally as korgan (i have often used this upgraded dagger from the item upgrade mod). that was still not okay but i hadnt the urge to do more because the bg2 vamps have the same features.

keep in mind that this is my opinion and i didnt have played chloe. this is just the way i compare npcs.

"But since every little suggestion or critic more often than not is read as an offence instead of a humble proposal or opinion, and one is always forced to say "I didn't mean to offend"... I repeat for the zillionth time, wouldn't it damn faster to close the involved forums once and for all?"

i hope when someone says something about your and maestros mod you wont get offended.

[Longinus]

Chloe adds exactly one +6 one handed weapon that only Chloe herself can use.  How is that any more unbalancing than a two handed +6'er?

How? Well for a start, you can't wield a +6 two handed weapon in conjunction with a shield.

That's one of the reasons BioWare made two handed weapons more powerful than their single handed counterparts.

[Kish]

Chloe adds exactly one +6 one handed weapon that only Chloe herself can use. How is that any more unbalancing than a two handed +6'er?

Excuse me? You're asking what makes a one-handed weapon more powerful than a weapon with the same stats that takes both hands?

[Seifer]

GG, to get your reply to that one take a look at the earlier posts in the thread.

It does amuse me somewhat that people are bickering over the 25 DEx score as (correct me if I'm wrong here) she hasn't got the AC class to match that ,which for me, is very important as this is by far the most blatant area that COULD have been abused but thankfully wasn't.

I also fully endorse Kish's view on the subjective element of any mod. Any old stagers here will know that his HLA is very similar to what we added to the K&Z mod and TGM can testify, we had some heated debates in that forum.

[Caedwyr]

I'll just jump in here to point out that Chloe's mother, Akadi, only has 24 dex and she is an greater power (according to TSR 9516: Faiths and Avatars). 21-22 (maybe even 23 dex) are still super-human but not at avatar level statistics. Also, another way to look at it is: how much difference will it make to lower it to one of these values? I believe its been mentioned that there isn't much difference between 22 and 25 dex ability-wise and lowering the stat to this range would get rid of the rather blatant max stat response several people have mentioned.