191 replies to this topic

[Caedwyr]

Nooooo...., 3rd Edition has its own set of rules with a new range for the stats. What bothers me about a dex of 25 for Chloe is the fact that it is 25 dex out of a possible 25 dexterity. In other words, no one can be more dexterous than Chloe. Not even a Greater Power who can be considered the embodiement of dexterity.

[Kish]

It is rather surprising that the goddess of the air doesn't have a higher Dexterity than 24 in 3ed.

[Warder]

Surely this is the end of the world! A computer game character has 25 out of 25 dex! All I can say is... Planescape: Torment must not be a game for you :/

[Caedwyr]

*Sigh* Planescape: Torment also uses a different skill/statistic system than the basic AD&D system. As I've mentioned a couple of time now, its the fact that 25 dex for Chloe leaves no room whatsoever for any other being to be more dexterous than her. I do recognize that this is a computer game, but some of us actually play this game for the story and not just as a tactical strategy game. Having a character in your party who cannot be beaten in an innate ability by anyone, even the most powerful of gods requires a huge amount of suspension of disbelief.

It seems to me, that no one is interested in rationalizing Chloe having 25 out of a possible 25 dexterity and would rather attempt to ridicule the issue and me by making comparisons to other games that don't stand up to a moment's thought. I hate to say this, but in debating/argument terms personal attacks are pretty much the same thing as admitting you don't have a case.

If someone can come up with a good, or even half-decent reason why Chloe should be unmatched by ANYONE in dexterity, then I'll be happy with it, and not bring the issue up again.

[Hesperus]

Well I like Chloe a lot and she has my well-balanced vote, regardless the 25 dex issue that one can easliy SK fix to fit one's fancy. What I am dismayed about is the lack of space Lucy is getting here for creative freeplay that a mod maker deserves. The mod is well thought out regardless of the dex issue, in terms of solid plot and depth of character. The arguments that a 25/25 dex is a bit much are solid, but they don't constitute grounds that Chloe is in CRPG play overpowered. 5 levels drained per hit (that bypasses stoneskin) is one such (fun) case, heh, but a dex that doesn't make her AC any lower than a well-armored fighter: from where does the imbalance other than in principle (that can be easily remedied with SK) come from? An innate alacrity for a mage, or an innate 25 str or con for a fighter would be clear cases, but the slightly lower AC is by no means clearly imbalanced. Based on some of the apparent assumptions on a what makes a "balanced" fighter in some of the criticism, it seems we should't have fighter/mages (as, Sola aside, just a basic fighter/mage or a blade for that matter is for a short time an unstoppable killing machine, or a high level sorcerer or mage played well could also be seen as "unbalanced" with the fun spells of time stop and imp alacrity). My idea is that the conservative "balanced" fighter assumptions have unacceptable consequences, based in terms of the potentials of Faerun role-playing. And on the weapons... as noted, there are some +6 items in ToB, even the stock holy avenger upgrade with the eye of Tyr, and what better source for a +6 weapon than divine intervention? And as Lucy pointed out, the character of Chloe has to be persuaded to use the uber weapons from mommy, as she wants the outcome of battle to merely be a matter of her own skill (the spellhold scene is a clear case). But it is in a fighter's interest to have an edge in equipment later in the game (especially if you play a modded version).

Out of the box, Chloe is nerfed from my observations with shadowkeeper, having base 0.5 att/round. Does that change later in the game with her specific kit? I have always just put it up to the normal 1att/round (and make some other changes like increased speed to be more consistent with the apparent vision of what Chloe really seems to be).

[Kish]

Out of the box, Chloe is nerfed from my observations with shadowkeeper, having base 0.5 att/round. Does that change later in the game with her specific kit?

It's a bug, to be fixed in v1.2.

[Caedwyr]

Personally, I don't feel that Chloe is unbalanced (aside from a 1-handed +6 enchantment weapon, but I can live with that as long as it doens't become standard issue for all new NPCs). As has been mentioned before, the 25 dex doesn't actually add anything more than a lower dex score of 22 gives. The concerns I have with the 25 dex are more of a roleplaying/consitency nature. From a consistency perspective, it doesn't really make much sense with the given reasons for Chloe to have such a powerful dexterity.

Realistically, what probably happened was Lucy looked at the effects for the slayer transformation, saw the 25 strength, and thought that justified 25 dex for Chloe. I doubt Lucy even saw the stats of Akadi's avatar when she made the decision about Chloe's dex. Also, since the mod has been out for so long and the 25 dex has been an immobile feature, I don't seriously expect any change to be made at this point.

Initially my posts about the avatar dex/Chloe's dex were made with the assumption that constructive criticism was welcome and consistency with the FR setting was a valid reason for changing what is essentially a cosmetic issue. Looking back through some of the older posts though, I can see that this is a hot-button issue and that the battlelines on it have been drawn a long time ago. Unfortunately this seems to mean that any outside comments are immediately taken to be supporting one side or the other and automatically rallyed around or dismissed.

[Hesperus]

Heh, fair enough. A dex of 22 or 21 (which is still awesome) is more 2nd ed realistic, as I see and agree with the role playing realism principle you have in there (which motivates me to give her a push in other areas), but I seem to remember her swords being unavailable to her after drinking a stone-skin type potion, which lowers the dex by 3. The CRPG consequences of a 25 dex would be clearer for a theif class char, and in PnP, well...

[Warder]

Right. No personal attacks were made (by me at least) - I attacked the ridiculousness of this argument, and the fact that it's been going on for so long. I'm not sure how to explain this without sounding offensive... but here goes. Yes, I do play the game for the story. I do like roleplaying. And that's exactly the reason why I don't care if Chloe has "maximum" dexterity or not. Nitpicking stats don't make for good roleplaying - to me, at least - and the only thing I see when I look at her character sheet is "wow, she's really nimble". It doesn't require a huge suspension of disbelief because it's just a number. If it was explicitely said somewhere in the game that "It's impossible for anyone, diety or mortal, to become more dextrous than Chloe" as part of the storyline then there would've been a problem... but as it is, that's not the case. To me, good roleplaying in a game like this is partly looking beyond the stats.

So, to sum it up - is 25 dexterity necessary? Nope.
Is complaining about it necessary? Nope x 2.
Will anything be gained from continuing to argue this case?

Well, I think everyone knows the answer to that question.

[Caedwyr]

Heh, well I have been known to nitpick before, but I usually do it in the interests of bettering the object of my nitpicking. Like I mentioned before 25 dex screams MAX POSSIBLE STAT, kinda like seeing the number 255 show up in some of the older games.

That said, I agree that discussing this further is pretty much pointless, and I can live with the current state of the mod (heh, it is only a game after all).

[Lucythebeast]

As you all have probably noticed, I did not start this thread. And I can't say I particularly care for it either, but that is beside the point. I am honored that Chloe sparks such interest and controversy, but it seems to be getting out of hand. Chloe's existing stats won't be lowered for "balance purposes", as I can almost guarantee that more people will raise the dex back up to 25 than those that are lowering it to a number they're more comfortable with. So lowering it would be a bit pointless. I would have preferred these arguments against a 25 dex to have come within the two years that I was creating Chloe and not after she's already been released. But... whatever. As stated before, if you don't like her stats, change them. If you don't like her weapons, don't use them.

Now... if you want this thread to be useful for something other than raising people's blood pressures, you'll talk about FUTURE balance issues, such as the ToB weapon upgrade. Though, I have read the arguments against the +6 weapon and I will consider them as the development process moves along, so perhaps you won't want to waste your time arguing an issue that has already been argued. My thinking for why her weapon would be +6 were stated. The weapon is blessed by, and infused with the power of two very powerful deities. I would certainly think that such weapons would be more powerful than those created by a mortal wizard with too much time on his hands. But, I will consider the arguments against it, as they are valid. And, it's very possible that I will see Chloe doing better than I think she should be in testing and make adjustments as I did during the SoA portion testing. I do consider these things and look for them, so worry not.

Anyway... I hope my comments aren't answered with replies like "Once again you're missing the point!" or something similar.

[Seifer]

Or we could happily leave this thead to spill out to 20 pages meaning i can lock it and ruoin everyone's fun....

LOL

[Schatten]

yep, since lucy wont change anything it is pointless to debate further. so i have to decrease the enchantment and dex by myself.


"why I don't care if Chloe has "maximum" dexterity or not. Nitpicking stats don't make for good roleplaying "

i disagree. this stats represent you character. they are relevant to what your character is like. supermodel leader with ch of 17? brain with int of 18?

[T.G.Maestro]

yep, since lucy wont change anything it is pointless to debate further. so i have to decrease the enchantment and dex by myself

Agreed. I won't do any more comments on altering her, it wouldn't be needed - everyone knows everyones opinion.

Still:

I would have preferred these arguments against a 25 dex to have come within the two years that I was creating Chloe and not after she's already been released

This point has merit. You are right Lucy, but I can't help the fact that it was necessary to start this conversation which turned into a debate.

Chloe's existing stats won't be lowered for "balance purposes", as I can almost guarantee that more people will raise the dex back up to 25 than those that are lowering it to a number they're more comfortable with

Please... tell me you don't believe this... this is nonsense. I've met a "few" BG2 player, and no more than 3-4% of them was using SK to give his/her characters such extreme values...

My thinking for why her weapon would be +6 were stated.

According to this logic, there is truly no need for these threads. Since Chloe is your mod, only YOU have the privilage to do anything to her, we can only offer you our suggestions and ideas. But if it is like: "you can say what you want, my mind is set from the beginning", or

I can't say I particularly care for it either

, this makes this really pointless.

And again, I'd never ask you to change the mod everytime something new or different was suggested, I'd only ask for your "care" and "patience" if so many people keep saying the same thing.

[Seifer]

I'm tempted to delete that just for the sheer laziness of the question. All the characters have either a FAQ/readme thread or relative section on their page.

Be a little more proactive and take a look eh?

[T.G.Maestro]

I'm tempted to delete that just for the sheer laziness of the question

Ahh, the ever-watching eyes of our most beloved moderator..!
Keep up the nice work Seif!

[T.G.Maestro]

Your words hold truth Domi.
Still, the "search" option is very easy to use, plus if you can find ANY info in these forums, their structure is very logical, browsing them is like getting up in the morning... (uhh, I guess that wasn't the best example.. )..