191 replies to this topic

[Littiz]

i hope when someone says something about your and maestros mod you wont get offended

ok, if/when we'll have a forum I'll pin a "Insults to the authors" thread

Talking about +6 weapons and 25 DEX kensais, go see Uma Thurman in Kill Bill

[T.G.Maestro]

i hope when someone says something about your and maestros mod you wont get offended

No, no such thing... Simply ban the annoying jerk! All fun aside, the answer is NO. I often argue to the end, but I may be convinced.

Talking about +6 weapons and 25 DEX kensais, go see Uma Thurman in Kill Bill

Reminds me of Chloe

[Littiz]

@Max:
Lucy claimed to be offended by my *first* comment here, so your point kinda lacks of solid ground.
The rest is chat with other forum members.
I think I have the right to give my opinion at least once, whatever the others said.

Then you essentially say that you know best and the author is of lesser intelligence for not seeing things your way.

I clearly stated that I don't know the mod yet, my opinion is simply one given from a different point of view: it's the impression of a newcomer. In some cases this might even be helpful, as working on a thing you often focus to much on the details and lose something of the big picture (happened to me sometimes, I'm not saying it happened here).

All in all I gave only an *additional* forum member's opinion, and only once.
If one wants to "use" it to feel offended instead of "using" it for something good or neutral (disregard it, accept it as a suggestion, accept it partially, whatever) it's not my decision or my fault.
A modder may decide to please the highest number of players, another may decide to please more his core followers and lose the rest, another may decide to keep his mod for himself.
I don't see how an additional opinion may bring harm.

I really find a bit odd the concept of "offence" perceived in these forums, but hey.

@TGM:
let me play the "Average Italian", for once.. a warrior with the looks of Uma Thurman would be gladly accepted anyway

[T.G.Maestro]

AFAIK the purpose of forums is to discuss the mod, ask questions and give feedback, not to inform the author how they should have done their mod.

Agree. But I'm positive I'm not forcing the latter.

But when the author reads about your issues, tells you that (s)he has already concidered those things and are happy with the result as it is

To make things clear: I'm not very familiar with the "original" Chloe, I only see the result, the last version of the mod. And I'm not really interested in beta-phases too, since they hardly have any effect on the final product. What I keep discussing is the CURRENT state of the character and its effects on the whole game. And these effects seem to be uncertain (just take a look at the activity in this thread ).
I can fully understand that the authors (who made an excellent work on Chloe!) revised many balance-issues, but it won't change the fact that Chloe's Dexterity and weapons are both too powerful in BG2, compared to the game or other NPCs too.
I hope you follow my thoughts the right way.

[T.G.Maestro]

@TGM:
let me play the "Average Italian", for once.. a warrior with the looks of Uma Thurman would be gladly accepted anyway

Heh, feel free pal!
My vote would go for Miss Zeta Jones however ...

[Lucythebeast]

@Max:
Lucy claimed to be offended by my *first* comment here, so your point kinda lacks of solid ground.

I did not say I was offended by your comment. I said I was offended by the fact that people were speaking as if I didn't give a crap about balance and didn't even consider balance issues or care. I feel the advantages that Chloe still has are justified by her divine blood as well as her intense training. The fact is, a Yr'kai should be a lot better than the game engine allows for, despite how "unbalancing" that is. Someone that devotes nearly every waking thought and action towards becoming a better sword-fighter and training from the moment they can walk towards that goal should not be simply as good as someone who started training when they were 14 years old and got only two or three years worth of training and only think of bettering themselves in combat as a way to figure out ways to kill certain things more effectively. It's like saying that someone who bought a gun and goes to a shooting range every few weeks to practice should be as good as a Marine sharpshooter that can "shoot a flea off a dog's nose 400 yards away". Chloe's weapons and high dex are more of a way to bring Chloe closer to the level she should be at due to her training than her divine blood which only sets her natural potential a bit higher. For the most part, Chloe is as good as she is because she works hard at it, not because her mother is a goddess. The divine blood only helps a little. Chloe should be able to do most of the things she does now even by picking up a non-magic sword or two, but the engine limits that. Whether the engine should limit that or not is another issue entirely and not one I care to comment on.

[Caedwyr]

I'll just jump in here to point out that Chloe's mother, Akadi, only has 24 dex and she is an greater power (according to TSR 9516: Faiths and Avatars). 21-22 (maybe even 23 dex) are still super-human but not at avatar level statistics. Also, another way to look at it is: how much difference will it make to lower it to one of these values? I believe its been mentioned that there isn't much difference between 22 and 25 dex ability-wise and lowering the stat to this range would get rid of the rather blatant max stat response several people have mentioned.

It seems my comments/question earlier in this thread has gotten buried. I'm still curious as to why Chloe has a higher dex score than her mother's avatar, a greater power.

[T.G.Maestro]

I'm still curious as to why Chloe has a higher dex score than her mother's avatar, a greater power.

Exactly the same thing I was referring to Caedwyr.

Chloe is as good as she is because she works hard at it, not because her mother is a goddess

I don't think that "hard training from the moment you are able to walk" would result in 25 DEX... not to mention a +6 weapon (higher than Carsomyr itself, did you thought about that by the way? )

I feel the advantages that Chloe still has are justified by her divine blood as well as her intense training

I'm sure this is not a valid point ni your eyes, right? Please, this way one could make a half-dragon NPC with all the racial and magical immunities and powers of an adult dragon... and simply say that you have to accept this, it is because of his/her draconic heritage... no, I think an NPC SHOULD be at least NEARLY equal to other (this time Bioware made) NPCs in-game.

Tell me, would it do any harm to lower her Dexterity to a much reasonable score, say 22? Or lower her weapons enchantment level to +4,+5? I don't think she would become weaker in any means - she would only be more acceptable to those who prefer a SLIGHTLY balanced gameplay.

[Kish]

I said I was offended by the fact that people were speaking as if I didn't give a crap about balance and didn't even consider balance issues or care. I feel the advantages that Chloe still has are justified by her divine blood as well as her intense training. The fact is, a Yr'kai should be a lot better than the game engine allows for, despite how "unbalancing" that is.

It occurs to me that perhaps we're going on different definitions of the term "balanced." My definition, and my perception of the definition intended by the starter of the thread, is, "A power level comparable to the party-joinables already in the game." Are you defining it as, "A power level that makes sense with the NPCs backstory," by chance? By the first definition, I can't see how her being a half-god Yr'kai means she's any more balanced than she'd be if she wasn't.

[Lucythebeast]

I don't care anymore.

[T.G.Maestro]

I don't care anymore

This means we have came to an agreement, right..?
Ehh.

[Seifer]

The mod had one of the longest periods of R&D I've ever seen for a mod so I'm inclined to believe that the mod is as balanced as it can be.

[The Dude]

From playing alot of this mod, I have to say that while the 25 may seem to be high, she isn't unbalanced.  She's not lightyears, or even lightseconds, better than Minsc with Lilracor.  You rage Minsc, he's much better than Chloe.  

And... the +6/+5 issue, it has even been implemented yet.  If you want to bring it up, wait until it exists in real time instead of in potentia.  

And people, I think you've made your points very clear and argued your arguments.  Lucy has made her reasons known and revealed her counterarguments.  Maybe you don't believe them to be sufficient, but to press them when she's said no, she's not interested in making the changes, that goes beyond criticism.  Common courtesy would indicate that you leave things be, because I don't think anyone here wants to hurt anyone else's feelings.

Lucy, I hope that despite the criticism that we will get to see a ToB Chloe.  I think its a great mod and a great character, and I think it would be a shame that you would abandon this fine piece of work because of a few critics.

- The Dude

[Geoff the Barbarian]

I don't think she would become weaker in any means - she would only be more acceptable to those who prefer a SLIGHTLY balanced gameplay.

Maestro - I'm trying to think of a more derogatory and arrogant way that you could have phrased this... really, I'm trying... nope. Cannot come up with one.

Do you even read the stuff you write?

[Lucythebeast]

Arguing the +6 weapon right now is rather pointless as it won't exist until Throne of Bhaal. If, during testing, it is noticed that Chloe is dishing out far more offense than the other fighters, it will be adjusted. Just as her strength was adjusted lower in SoA to even things out. So until the ToB portion is released, kindly keep your "balance" comments towards what is already in SoA as this is the only "tested" portion of the romance. So until ToB is released, I will no longer comment on ToB balance issues.

[T.G.Maestro]

You're now just trying to discredit her arguments and I would think that that would just be downright offensive

On the part of discrediting the arguments: yes, I did that. And with a good reason. And of course, it IS offensive in a way. Since it keeps offending one point of wiew on this NPC.

From playing alot of this mod, I have to say that while the 25 may seem to be high, she isn't unbalanced.

Already noted. I was merely talking about some "cosmetics" - 22 DEX would give you the same bonuses as 25, without the feeling of unbalancing the game. It is a simple action that would stop this conversation once and for all.

And... the +6/+5 issue, it has even been implemented yet. If you want to bring it up, wait until it exists in real time instead of in potentia

I'm not sure why we shouldn't talk about something that is only in TODO phase. If you take a short look at this topic you will clearly notice that I'm not the only one who finds these components somewhat.. out of place. And I truly fail to see the reason why I should drop this topic just because it doesn't exists right now. It WILL exists, and that is all that counts here.

And people, I think you've made your points very clear and argued your arguments. Lucy has made her reasons known and revealed her counterarguments. Maybe you don't believe them to be sufficient, but to press them when she's said no, she's not interested in making the changes, that goes beyond criticism

Agree on this one. I'll stop with this to avoid insulting others, since it wasn't my intention from the start, believe it or not .

Lucy, I hope that despite the criticism that we will get to see a ToB Chloe

I'm sure we will. At least I hope so .

Maestro - I'm trying to think of a more derogatory and arrogant way that you could have phrased this... really, I'm trying... nope. Cannot come up with one

Now-now. I think at this point it is not me who starts to bring this to a more personal level... I truly think that you overact the situation Geoff.

Do you even read the stuff you write?

What would be your first guess? In contrast with a few other posters here I even read the ANSWERS on my posts instead of repeating my 2 nice sentences over and over while talking about insults and brutal critics. I guess such a conversation would only help a mod to find its flaws (if any) and find a way to suit the needs of more than 50 people.

So until the ToB portion is released, kindly keep your "balance" comments towards what is already in SoA

See above.

[Renmauzo]

I commend you T.G.--you have the balls to say what I think but don't dare post.

[Caedwyr]

*Sigh* I guess I won't be getting an answer to my question.