191 replies to this topic

[Nydh]

Does anyone in Ascension use Absolute Immunity? I can't remember ever seeing the Mantle line used in game. I'm hoping to see it from Improved Sendai

I was sort of hoping to emphasize that Breachable spell protections already don't make a compelling case against +3 Celestial Fury and that ancillary abilities can be more significant - not mention that anything added to the game still has to make sense contextually in Faerun. Perhaps I drowned that in blather though

[Kish]

No, Melissan uses Divine Mantle. Irenicus at the Tree of Life uses Absolute Immunity, along with a bunch of spell protections that make Breaching him easier said than done. (Tangent: Tougher Sendai doesn't use any form of Mantle, just Protection from Magical Weapons, sorry. )

[Nydh]

He does, doesn't he? I must have Improved Final Irenicus on the brain to have forgotten that. That's fine though, Chloe will be at +4/+3 at that point anyway, no balance worries as long as he's immune to stun. ( Chloe stayed far away in my last game while Aerie and Imoen unpeeled Irenicus...she can't handle double hit Abi-Dalzim's very well )

( Arctangent: Mislead/Spell Immunity Abjuration/Spell Immunity Divination isn't a spot on stacking Staff of the Magi style unremovable Spell Traps and illegally stacked weapon immunities - Sendai is going to make me cry, isn't she? Don't answer that, please. )


Good folks around here Thanks for reading.

[Lucythebeast]

Perhaps the question is, then, why should a weapon infused with the power of two gods NOT be +6? Personally I find the entire 2E system heavily flawed and I rather prefer 3E. Working around the 2E limitations in a game engine is like pulling teeth. You're ugly if you do and you're in pain if you don't. You can't win either way.

[Renmauzo]

Perhaps the question is, then, why should a weapon infused with the power of two gods NOT be +6? Personally I find the entire 2E system heavily flawed and I rather prefer 3E. Working around the 2E limitations in a game engine is like pulling teeth. You're ugly if you do and you're in pain if you don't. You can't win either way.

True, a weapon infused by the power of two Gods should be strong; but doesnt that strike you as a little over the top?

The fact that Chloe can tank at all strikes me as somewhat odd. I mean, survivability is one thing, but I usually, if I have a kensai, let someone else take the blows and have her attack from the sides or from behind. If you're playing successfully with Chloe as a tank I'd say balance is a little out of whack. Of course, I've played BG so many times I can tank with just about anyone, but I think you get my idea.

One other thing (and I know this is starting to sound like a rant, but I'd like to get it all out in one place) but 19 dex is more than any human (in our world) ever has had or will have. 25 is inconceivable to me, its like Neo matrix style dodging bullets and kicking ass; in fact, that seems like a good summation of Chloe.

[Kish]

Perhaps the question is, then, why should a weapon infused with the power of two gods NOT be +6?

In light of the thread topic, the obvious answer would be, "Because it unbalances the character who has it."

For my part, it's--disconcerting--when an NPC mod introduces a weapon that could be argued to be the most powerful weapon in the game.

[Lucythebeast]

Perhaps the question is, then, why should a weapon infused with the power of two gods NOT be +6?

In light of the thread topic, the obvious answer would be, "Because it unbalances the character who has it."

For my part, it's--disconcerting--when an NPC mod introduces a weapon that could be argued to be the most powerful weapon in the game.

I think Blackrazor takes that title, followed closely by Corsamyr... or however it's spelled.

[LordofLords]

The fact that Chloe can tank at all strikes me as somewhat odd. I mean, survivability is one thing, but I usually, if I have a kensai, let someone else take the blows and have her attack from the sides or from behind.

Didnt you guys ever try spirit armor? chloe gets the full -9 AC. so you get at least -7 AC early in the game, -10 with her blur ability. this is better than most fighter chars ever get in whole ToB! ( if you dont use any mods allowing to stack rings/amulets). IMO Chloe is that way one of the most powerful npcs in BG2.

[Hendryk]

Two things: one, Chloe can't cast Spirit Armor for herself (that I can find, anyway) so if she's soloing - which is the only fair comparison - it really shouldn't count. Second, a fighter or cleric with no Dex bonus at all can reach AC -15 just by using items from SoA:

Armor of the Hart AC -2
Sentinal shield +4 AC -7
gauntlets of Dexterity AC -11
ring of Gaax AC -13
helm +1 (any) AC -14
cloak of the Sewers AC 15

So who's overpowered here?

[LordofLords]

sounds convincing, but to your first point: BG2 is a game where you play in a party ( or at least most people do) so i dont think you should only look at the solo-aspect. one should always see how the char fits into the game in a way most people play it. and that way you can make chloe highly effective with next to no effort/items.

[Kish]

Keldorn has a paladin kit which is far too powerful to be balanced with kitless paladins. Korgan gains the ability to become immune to level drain, most mind-affecting powers, and Imprisonment, and gives up nothing he's ever likely to miss. Haer'Dalis has a kit which ceases to have any disadvantages worth speaking of as soon as he takes Enhanced Bard Song. I think balance questions should look at Chloe as an individual character and those qualities that are unique to Chloe--her Dexterity and swords--not at the kensai kit.

[Lucythebeast]

It's very simple folks... if you think Chloe's dexterity is unbalancing, use Shadowkeeper to lower it to a number you're more comfortable with. If you think her weapons are unbalanced, give her different weapons. She doesn't HAVE to use those weapons, she just has to keep them on her person. Give her Belm and a short sword +1 if you want. You don't HAVE to play Chloe the way she's packaged, and most people don't have a problem with her extra abilities so I have no reason to change them. If YOU do, then do so. It's not like I can stop you. ;-)

[Hendryk]

sounds convincing, but to your first point: BG2 is a game where you play in a party ( or at least most people do) so i dont think you should only look at the solo-aspect. one should always see how the char fits into the game in a way most people play it. and that way you can make chloe highly effective with next to no effort/items.

Sure, but all characters can be buffed in various ways. I just think that if you're comparing Chloe to, say, Keldorn, then you should restrict the comparison to what they can do for themselves and not bring in everything that some third NPC might do to benefit one or the other of them. The question is, is Chloe, as she is, a well-balanced character? I don't think it helps to answer that by taking into account spells, items or other player choices that are outside Lucy's control. For instance, I like Solaufien to use FoA, a girdle of giant strength, Stoneskin, Improved Invisibility and Improved Haste with a potion of Fortitude but I don't think that the overpowered killing machine that results is really anyone's responsibility but mine.

[LordofLords]

true enough

[Gabrielle]

Yes she is balanced even though when I saw that 25 in Dex when I first played her looked overkill but it isn't really since I've played the mod.

What the hells the big deal with items over +2 any way? No one forces you to pick them up to use them or sell them. You don't like her using +6 weapons then disarm her of that sword and give her that +1 katana.

[Kish]

:points at thread title:

Her weapons are a part of her power, and, thus, entirely relevant to whether she's a well balanced NPC. Yes, anyone could drop her weapons--no, that's not really relevant. If it was, the concept of "balance" would be meaningless, as it's easy to change any features of a character. I could take Near Infinity and WordPad and make Westley Weimer's Valen a human single-classed thief with 9s in all her ability scores, and no one would ever say that character was overpowered. Does that stop people from suggesting the character Wes created is overpowered? Should it? No and no.

[Lucythebeast]

I don't believe Wes ever argued that Valen WASN'T overpowered. In fact, I seem to recall seeing a note attached to Valen saying she was over-powered and to bear that in mind when you download her.

Yes, in some respects Chloe is over-powered. But all said respects are explained quite logically, and thus fit. They also fit in a roleplay sense. And anyone who has played Chloe past Spellhold know that Chloe was very VERY upset about her weapons being tampered with and each player has a valid RP reason to toss those weapons into her general inventory and equip her with some other weapons. You don't HAVE to use those weapons, and Chloe would even give you a valid argument of why she shouldn't use them. It's up to the player's conscience, and thus in extension Chloe's, to decide whether she should take a hit to her pride and use the 'tainted' weapons, for the benefit of the party. So, if you want to use the powered up weapons, do so. If you don't, then don't and you are justified in either decision.

The whole balance debate is flawed, because it seems to expect Chloe to ALWAYS be balanced, but that is simply not possible for her, or any other NPC. Is Minsc still balanced with the rest of the party if you give him the Sword of Chaos +2 that you get from the Genie in Chateau Irenicus? No, he gains a distinct 'butt-kicking' advantage. The same could be said if you give it to the PC instead. Is your mage still balanced with the rest of the group if you give him or her the staff of the magi and/or the robe of vecna? Sure, you bust your butt for those items, but that doesn't take away from the fact that that mage gains a significant boost in power that the other players don't get.

Chloe starts out a little more powerful than the rest of the party. She's a hardened, experienced mercenary and is not only the child of one of the most powerful deities, but is also favored by that deity as well as another powerful one and has the weapons to prove it. Yes, she can likely kick butt in the beginning, though she still has her weak defense to contend with. I had Minsc and Chloe duke it out about five times, both unbuffed and attacking at the same time. Minsc won 6 out of 10 times, so he seems just a wee bit better than Chloe, or perhaps that extra win could be accounted by luck. It doesn't really matter, what does is that they are fairly evenly matched. Chloe also wins only about half the time against Edwin... as some of you may have discovered under certain circumstances.

By the time you reach Spellhold, though, Chloe is lagging behind in power. Especially if you took a really long time to reach Spellhold, which is best for Chloe even if you're not romantically interested in her. This balances out the early over-powered state, as she is now under-powered. After her weapon upgrade, she is about even with the rest of the party or perhaps slightly better but soon enough she is about even. Playing fairly with no tampering by cheating of any kind, Chloe fits in well with the rest of the party by the end of the game, or perhaps is under-powered even. As several people have noted, Chloe dies fast when getting attacked. Hell, I've seen Korgan with a -11 ac get taken down in a matter of moments by some of the monsters in the game so even heavy plate doesn't always save your behind from getting chomped. Chloe works best as an auxillary fighter, on the side or behind an enemy. Of course, her offensive power often attracts the attention of the enemy she's beating on. Not balanced? Only if you burn a lot of spells to counter her weaknesses. But then, the same could be said of any npc.

[Grumpy Guy]

I, personally, think Chloe is wonderful.

I will admit that I haven't finished the game yet, but from what I've seen, she's about perfect. I was a bit apprehansive about the 25 Dexterity thing at first, but it doesn't hurt at all. As for arguements that 19 is better than humanly possible, so 25 for a human is silly - you're forgetting that Chloe isn't exactly human.

Another point. I heard sojmeone complaining about the +6'edness of Chloe'
s sword later in the game. I haven't gotten that far, but I have this to say: Chloe's weapons hit +6? GOOD.

It has always pissed me off that the only +6 weapons in the game are two-handed swords. Doesn't that bother anyone else? Unless you are into 2-h swords (I, personlly, strongly dislike tham), you don't get the most powerful weapons on the game. If Chole, who weilds weapons made by DEITIES can't have a +6 sword, no one should.

Lucy - your mod is WONDERFUL. It is balanced, from what I've seen. My only complaint would be that (at least for me) Chloe has gone from Banter-a-day in Act 2 to No Banter at all in act 3.

Still, I love it. Lucy, yer awesome - don't listen to anyone who says otherwise.

Edited by Grumpy Guy, 11 November 2003 - 01:56 AM.

[Kish]

It has always pissed me off that the only +6 weapons in the game are two-handed swords. Doesn't that bother anyone else?

Probably not, since it's not true. One two-handed sword, one halberd, one spear, one staff. Did you mean "two-handed weapons," or are you thinking of some mod that adds more +6 two-handed swords?

[T.G.Maestro]

Probably not, since it's not true. One two-handed sword, one halberd, one spear, one staff. Did you mean "two-handed weapons," or are you thinking of some mod that adds more +6 two-handed swords?

Not to mention that there is a good reason why those weapons are more powerful than their one-handed brothers. If you use a two-handed weapon you'll get only one pack of bonuses, while you get double from 2 different weapons. If you read the notes and hints when you specialize in weapons, you'll see the same words . Two weapon style would be far overpowered compared to Single,- and Two-handed weapon style if there were equally powerful one handed weapons.
That +6 is absolutely madness, it can hit through Amelissans Divine Mantle, making the final battle much easier. Such things should be kept in mind before giving +6 weapons to NPCs.

Lucy, yer awesome - don't listen to anyone who says otherwise

I think this mod would become even more loveable if she would listen a bit to those who say "otherwise" .