191 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

I haven't actually played Chloe yet (although I downloaded her as soon as the mod came out). I'm heavily against overpowered NPCs that unbalance the game (Solaufein, Valen for example) and I haven't seen ANY downside of Chloe in this forum, only advantages compared to "normal" NPCs. I'm only asking for the opinion of all who played the game with Chloe in the party and can help me out with this question.

So please, choose an answer (don't be partial, please )!
Thanks in advance.

TGM

[Seifer]

I've had to abstain in this one as I've just picked her up. I'll keep you advised though.

One thing I do like is that the 25 DEX hasn't given her an unbalanced AC.

[Melkor]

She is very good and well developed npc. Besides Valen she is the only npc mod I play with.

[T.G.Maestro]

She is very good and well developed npc. Besides Valen she is the only npc mod I play with

This brings up another question Melkor: do you find Valen a well-balanced NPC??! I must say she is one of the most overpowered NPCs to have in the party (no offense meant, Valen is one of my favorites too, but that won't change the fact that she could solo the game without much fuss - not to mention killing bosses in 4-5 hits... ).

[Melkor]

She wasn't that powerful when she got chunked by the red dragon in one hit, must have been a critical. Her "hands" could use some rework since she is pretty good at chunking low level npcs in one hit herself. Pretty powerful for 1D6+2

[Seifer]

OFF TOPIC!!!!

Original question only please.

[Hendryk]

At the start of the game, Chloe's a little bit of a liability. Her AC isn't great, she gets no strength bonuses and dual-wielding makes her a bit unlikely to hit anything with a low AC. Like any kensai, though, as she gains levels, she gets tougher faster than either Keldorn or Korgan. By the end of SoA, she can take care of herself pretty well - especially if you've equipped her with one of the girdles of giant strength. Pretty much a typical kensai, IMO.

[Neminus]

Later in the game almost every NPC becomes far too powerful for any opponent, if boosted with proper artifacts. Chloe is no different.
I'd say that it's her resistances (innate and gained from weapons) rather than 25 DEX that make her more powerful than an average kensai. Nevertheless, she still gets killed often when used as a front-line attacker - her AC will never get as low as Korgan's.

[Lucythebeast]

It depends on how you look at it. In my opinion, she's no more unbalancing than Jaheira. Using her abilities wisely, she's perhaps a little more offensively powerful than Minsc using the sword of chaos. Defensively, she's only moderate at best. But that's the way kensai, and Chloe in particular, is supposed to be. 2E heavily armored fighters are much more powerful than they should be and I prefer the 3E system where light armor and high dex is balanced well with heavy armor and low dex. In 3E, if you're wearing very heavy armor, it doesn't matter if you have a 22 dex because you can only use one or two of the dex modifiers to ac. Unlike in 2E where you get full dex mod even wearing full plate armor (which in real life if you get knocked onto your back wearing it, you can't even get up.)

Anyway, one of the focuses of Chloe's testing was balancing and I think we did a good job of it.

[Darkwind]

I think the only thing that unbalances her are her weapons: starting at +2 and +3 at the very beginning is too much. Then again, her strength is very low so that might just be a compensation.

An item or spell of strength increasing combined with Barkskin makes her almost unstoppable, though. By the end of SoA, she had around -20 THAC0 with both hands. That's tactical thinking so I voted for option 3.

[T.G.Maestro]

the only thing that unbalances her are her weapons: starting at +2 and +3 at the very beginning is too much

I agree with this point. Compared to other NPCs (plus the PC!) who doesn't even dream of magical weapons at the start of the game (not even in chapter 2-3) this is clearly too much. At least they should be lowered to +1, +2. They could reach their maximum power later on, but to start with these bonuses...many opponents are MEANT to be invulnerable at the first part of SoA, and these weapons would unbalance this factor.

[GVGS58]

I don't know. In Irenicus' Dungeon we get the Sword of Chaos +2. With the Slaver's quest we get Lilarcor +3. In the Copper Coronet we can buy the Sword of Roses +3 and various axes +3. In about every stronghold quest we find a weapon +2 and/or +3. I don't think it's that much unbalancing, especially of you consider she is a well experienced mercenary. Besides, if a god gives me something I expect it would be something nice...

[Lucythebeast]

Originally it was +2 and +1, but I was advised to raise the plusses for balance purposes. Yes in Chataeu Irenicus, her swords are a little over-powered. But a little into chapter 2 they're just fine. I didn't want to add another upgrade for plot purposes, so you all can either just deal with her weapons or have her use some non-magic or +1 weapons that you pick up if it really bugs you that much.

[Kish]

I think her weapons start out just fine. I'm a little concerned about where they'll wind up, though. I haven't gotten there yet, but looking at her .d file, they eventually become +6 and +5. In the unmodded game, there are exactly four possible +6 weapons, all two-handed, all some assembly required, all available at mid-ToB or later. She gets a +6 one-handed weapon? When does it upgrade to +6?

Really, I think it would be better if they capped out at +5 and +4 or +5 and +5, and didn't get there until ToB levels. Just my opinion, though.

[Darkwind]

I don't know, Lucy. With just the weapons she has by the end of SoA, she had -25 and less in THAC0 by the end of ToB. Why improve them any more?  

[Melkor]

Nothing wrong with her weapons even if they are +6. Even these weapons can be useless against some of the end bosses of the game.

[T.G.Maestro]

Really, I think it would be better if they capped out at +5 and +4 or +5 and +5, and didn't get there until ToB levels. Just my opinion, though

I don't know, Lucy. With just the weapons she has by the end of SoA, she had -25 and less in THAC0 by the end of ToB. Why improve them any more?

Completely agree on this one. There is a good balancing reason why there are so few +5, +6 weapons, and it should be noted.

[Nydh]

Just finished a Shadows of Amn game - haven't played in probably two years - modded with Chloe, a full install of Tactics, Rogue rebalancing, and a few other WeiDu knickknacks. Monk PC, Chloe, Imoen, Jaheira, Aerie, and Haer'Dalis.

Without Aerie to hide behind, Chloe never would have made it out of Chapter Two Kensai inabilites to equip important protective items ( e.g. Helm of Charm Protection, ugh... ) keep them out of many battles until they have a slew of protection spells on them - and then have them tactically retreating again after Remove Magic.

I'll third Kish's opinion that a +3 weapon at the end of Chateau Irenicus is not at all out of place. Offhand, the only opponents immune to +2 or lower weapons that you'll encounter early in the game are Iron and Adamantium Golems, which Minsc and Lilarcor or Korgan and Stonefire dispatch with far less risk and suffering. ( Why, by the way, can Lathlandar's Flame cast Flame Arrow once per day? Was there some reason I've overlooked that implies she should be flouting the Kensai prohibition from ranged attacks? )

Saying that NPCs can't dream of having magical weapons in Chapter Three is quite a stretch, considering that there are magical weapons in Chapter One designed to be suited to your party's proficiences. But anyway....

By level fifteen or so Chloe was durable enough to stay at the front lines, due mostly to improved saving throws and better hitpoints. Even with Barkskin or charges from the Shield Amulet, a single Giant Troll was more than a match for her in straight melee ( at level fifteen! ) , which is why she got the first Boots of Speed we'd found, so that she could avoid ever engaging her opponents directly and flit to creatures that were already focused on someone else.

By the final battle with Irenicus Chloe had hit level twenty-five and had her +4/+3 setup...certainly a model of restraint compared to Solafein, though if someone thinks a +4 weapon is inherently game breaking, I'm sure they'll chime in In offence, Rage of Akadia doesn't come close to the Flail of Ages - it's the nice resistances her weapons provide that make them useful. By "useful" I mean mean worth equipping for other than roleplaying considerations - although I never tampered with her kit, Chloe would have been better off most of the time with Belm or Kundane. On the Thone of Bhaal upgrades I'll reserve judgement; it may be that there's too many innate, undispellable powers on the later incarnations, but the proof of that is in the playing

In any case, she's going to overcap her Thaco by the end of the game: a Kensai with a twig and no strength bonus is going to have a -16 Thaco eventually. Like Archers, they don't miss, it's all they do, and +4 or +6 won't change that. +6 is probably excessive for reasons of game fiction, but it's just one number after all.

Chloe's one aspect I did find genuinely unbalancing was her banter with other NPCs - but that's probably not germane and certainly not broachable without spoilers, so I shut up now.

/begin peevish hijack mandated by my longsword studies
As an aside, I'll poke around to see if I can't find the MPEG an armorcrafter of my distant acquaintance has made, with her backflipping down the length of a gymnasium in a full suit of plate It's gotten a bad rap from history professors who read Mark Twain's satire of knights needing cranes to be lifted into saddle, rather than the primary sources which state that if you couldn't vault into your saddle fully armored, you were no kind of knight at all. Plate is amazing stuff and not particularly restrictive
/end peevish hijack mandated by my longsword studies



For what it's worth

[Kish]

+6 is a bit more than one number--it's the one number that goes through Absolute Immunity (the manual claims +5 weapons will, but the manual is wrong) or through Divine Mantle (if you have Ascension).