191 replies to this topic

[Schatten]

Chloe has her advantages too, that is true. I didn't feel they were that much beyond what Jaheira and Korgan, for example, have. Perhaps I am wrong. If the general consensus is that she is too powerful then tell me how you want her nerfed. If a good number of people agree and not many disagree, then if can be put in with the next patch.

imo its wrong to compare a npc to the best npc there is. korgan is one of the best. i think its better to look at decent npcs in a group with every npc equiped decently. look, if you look ar the top end then the npc surely will be the dominant force in battle; if you look at the bottom and compare them then the npc sucks in battle. understand what i mean? :turnip2:

[Deva]

Meh, I was never very keen on Chloe myself. I felt 25 DEX was slightly excessive for anyone. I mean, you're a god-child, but you don't have incredibly high STR or anything. I wasn't particularly drawn to her as a character either.. I saw her as a slightly more attitudinal version of Immy. And Immy - teh suck. *Prepares for multiple stabs*

Edited by Hishi, 28 August 2004 - 02:17 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Chloe has her advantages too, that is true. I didn't feel they were that much beyond what Jaheira and Korgan, for example, have. Perhaps I am wrong. If the general consensus is that she is too powerful then tell me how you want her nerfed. If a good number of people agree and not many disagree, then if can be put in with the next patch.

Here are my suggestions then:

- lower her DEX to 22.
- weaken her weapons (I already posted my suggestions about them in this thread).

Nothing more. Aside these two points, she is a very well balanced and interesting character.

[T.G.Maestro]

Link to the proposed modification on swords:
here.

[AG3]

Myself, I like Chloe the way she already is. Whether she has 22 or 25 DEX doesn't really matter gameplay wise, as 25 DEX has far less impact on gameplay balance than 25 STR would have. I think Chloe's dexterity works well at linking her to her ancestry. A high-level priest using Draw Upon Holy Might could have stats that far exceeds Chloe's (except the DEX part, which could be equal), so why is it so unlikely that a god-child has 25 dex from ancestry and years of training? If anything, I always thought that Charname (and Chloe) had lousy base stats when considering their heritage.

Gameplay balance and roleplaying don't always agree, and in Chloe's case I think roleplaying should take precedence. The 25 DEX doesn't break the gameplay at all. And besides, what's the point of the game allowing you to have stats at 25 if no one could ever reach it, not even children of the gods? Yes, magic allows you to reach stats at 25, but godly ancestry is as viable a reason to have stats of 25 as spells are, IMO.

Besides, my Sorceror is far more powerful than Chloe is, so if any of my characters are breaking the "gameplay balance", it's not Chloe.

Edited by AG3, 24 September 2004 - 08:03 PM.

[Lucythebeast]

Every time someone posts in this thread, I'm reminded of how much I prefer the 3rd edition rules to the 2nd edition. If this game were under the 3E rules, this squabbling about Chloe's dexterity would not be occuring as it's far less than a mature air elemental's in 3E rules. *sigh* As for her weapons, they're technically channeling Chloe's semi-divine powers. You can consider them to be the foci and conduits of her power, rather than the powers themselves. The "conduits" have built-in limits though so that Chloe's powers don't burn themselves out before she has gained the necessary experience to control them.

In a gameplay standpoint, as I've said before they're meant to keep in line with the alternatives you can find in game. They're supposed to be as good, or slightly better than any alternative you could give her as incentive to use them, which is Chloe's preference. They start out being a little better than you can get but by the time they're upgraded you could probably have better weapons to give her, but after the upgrade they're worth using again. By the time the game is drawing to a close, they're about even with what you could give her, or maybe not even as good. I don't believe Chloe's weapons are out of line with what the game can give you doing the right quests, but as I've said, if you truly believe they are, then hand her a Belm and/or a short sword of backstabbing or something.

[Kish]

so why is it so unlikely that a god-child has 25 dex from ancestry and years of training?

Because 25 in an ability score, in 2ed, is equal to the most powerful of gods. Not half-gods--gods.

Also because Chloe's mother and the source of her supernatural Dexterity, Akadi herself, has a Dexterity of 24.

[T.G.Maestro]

I always thought that Charname (and Chloe) had lousy base stats when considering their heritage.

Besides, my Sorceror is far more powerful than Chloe is, so if any of my characters are breaking the "gameplay balance", it's not Chloe.

Many modders seem to forget the unwritten rule, that this game is about <CHARNAME>, not their personal NPCs. This wasn't meant as offense, but still, it is a rather saddening tendency that every single mod NPC attempts to be slightly more special than the PC, a tendency introdused strictly by the modding community (Bioware knew this problem well, and made very well balanced characters).
IMO, if a mod takes away the glory of the main character, than it is not a good mod when it comes to fitting into the BG2 setting.

[AG3]

IMO, if a mod takes away the glory of the main character, than it is not a good mod when it comes to fitting into the BG2 setting.

Perhaps so, but I fail to see Chloe doing that. DEX is IMO a fairly "unimportant" stat, and even moreso later in the game. It has very little impact on the gameplay balance, so the aspect of "taking away the glory" from the main char is only in the player's mind, who don't like the thought of someone being "better" than their character (I personally tend to be like that). Why can't someone other than just CHARNAME be a little special?

Your glory comes mostly from your actions and accomplishments, and much less from your innate stats. And the actions taken by your party depends solely on CHARNAME, not Chloe.

Aerie with Crom Faeyr and Draw Upon Holy Might, with Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power has far more power than Chloe, and well within the confines of the game's rules. Yet no one complains that she is overpowered and steals glory away from the main character.

Yes, Chloe has a high DEX, but she also has definite restrictions as a kensai, and her other stats aren't all that great either.

Because 25 in an ability score, in 2ed,  is equal to the most powerful of gods.  Not half-gods--gods.

So any cleric of a certain level could beat up a god with just a Draw Upon Holy Might spell? What about the Potion of Storm Giant Strength? Are Storm Giants nearly as powerful as the mightiest gods themselves? It's a bit flawed to measure the Gods by the rules set by this game (maybe even the entire 2ed rules), as the numbers are in many cases illogical and give a rather odd picture of the relative strengths of the inhabitants in the Forgotten Realms.

Edited by AG3, 25 September 2004 - 04:37 PM.

[Schatten]

Every time someone posts in this thread, I'm reminded of how much I prefer the 3rd edition rules to the 2nd edition. If this game were under the 3E rules, this squabbling about Chloe's dexterity would not be occuring as it's far less than a mature air elemental's in 3E rules.

lets say i, schatten god of strength, have a strength of 40 and you made a npc with strength 45. do you think in 3ed no one would question you about that? or am i confused and did not understand that?

[Lucythebeast]

Akadi having a dexterity of 23 or whatever it is, is simply ludicrous. A "goddess of the plane of air and of speed of movement" should have a 25 dexterity in 2ed rules. Well actually technically a character with 23 dexterity doesn't move any faster than a character with a 12 dexterity of the same race. At least not walking and running speeds. Which I think is kind of funny. So, Akadi's dexterity doesn't even really have a bearing on this discussion. If Zeus has a strength of 19 and Heracles has a strenght of 23, would we be whining that Heracles shouldn't have a strength higher than Zeus's? Perhaps that's a bad example since Zeus isn't the god of strength... actually I don't think there is a god of strength in Greek mythology... hmm I would use Norse mythology as an example, but Magni Thorsson, the god of strength, doesn't have any children of his own as far as I know. Or at least, not famous ones that were written about...

Regardless, stats of gods in D&D are rather trivial. The average high level fighter can whoop most deities' butts in 2E rules, and really the stats are of the gods' avatars, which are watered down mortal shells of the deities and aren't necessarily as powerful stat-wise as the real thing. So using the stats of Akadi's avatar to complain about what Chloe's dex is is also pointless, especially when the stats are flawed.

And by the way, my point about Chloe's dex was referring the the score of 25, not to it being higher or lower than Akadi's dex. When your average (AVERAGE!) air elemental has a dex of 40+, 25 doesn't seem in the least bit infeasible for the daughter of the goddess of air.

And finally, as I stated previously, I did want to tweak Chloe's stats (and not just dexterity I might add), so harping on the subject further is like beating on a dead horse, as the saying goes.

Oh and one last thing... I am closing this thread to further replies until after the patch to tweak her stats and weapons, at which time a new thread on balance issues will be opened, without the facetious poll that is rather one-sided.